SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc - page 8.

aric

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Quote from: dayfall on March 13, 2013, 02:01:36 PM

I think the value is what needs to be refunded. That is about 40BTC right now. That way, no one is really at a loss. Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent. But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency. Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere. This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

WTF? Scenario:

Buyer pays you 100 BTC for something.
BTC's worth doubles in USD.
You don't send what Buyer ordered.
Buyer (obviously) wants a refund.
You'd then try to only owe Buyer 50 BTC?

The only one getting screwed would be the Buyer. Comparative value is meaningless. The Buyer cares about what he paid in his/her bitcoin. Alternatively, if bitcoin became half as much in USD, Buyer would still be owed 100 BTC. How is it possible to not see how unfair it is to be refunded in anything other than the original amount?

dayfall

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Merit: 250

I think the value is what needs to be refunded. That is about 40BTC right now. That way, no one is really at a loss. Of course, my reasoning falls apart when you consider that if the price of gold doubled then it would be ok to send only half an ounce; if you consider things as only the value they represent. But, Gold is a commodity and Bitcoin is a currency. Bitcoins represent buying power, and so if 40 BTC were refunded then the gold coin could just be bought elsewhere. This way no one could hedge anyone (as far as the currencies are concerned).

aric

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 01:52:38 PM

Quote from: HighInBC on March 13, 2013, 01:38:57 PM

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 01:35:21 PM

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

Yikes. Is that really the business practice you want to engage in?

What if you don't even send the product, as is the case of this thread? You're going to "refund" (i.e. give the person his money back -- the money that was never yours to begin with) in a different currency because you want to keep some of it?

2weiX

legendary

Activity: 2072

Merit: 1006

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Quote from: HighInBC on March 13, 2013, 01:38:57 PM

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 01:35:21 PM

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

Think this sentence makes it clear?

If we have to refund, we will do so according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time.

Longer version:

In the case that we have to refund you, we will refund you in a currency of your choice (USD, EUR, BTC) according to the value of the item in USD or EUR at the time the order was placed.

HighInBC

member

Activity: 85

Merit: 10

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 01:35:21 PM

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

I will be sure to read it thoroughly before ordering.

I agree that if you state in your TOS that prices are set in USD and refunds will be given based on that then you are being fair.

2weiX

legendary

Activity: 2072

Merit: 1006

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Quote from: HighInBC on March 13, 2013, 01:29:44 PM

Bitcoins are a currency. They are not tied to the US dollar. When you send bitcoins you are sending bitcoins not USD.

Bitcoins are a value storing commodity, and a currency.

If I ordered from you and you could not deliver I would expect to be refunded in the same currency I paid with. If you tried to adjust the refund based on some foreign nation's rapidly dropping currency I would be right here posting about it too.

time for me to change my ToS, then ^^

HighInBC

member

Activity: 85

Merit: 10

Bitcoins are a currency. They are not tied to the US dollar. When you send bitcoins you are sending bitcoins not USD.

Bitcoins are a value storing commodity, and a currency.

If I ordered from you and you could not deliver I would expect to be refunded in the same currency I paid with. If you tried to adjust the refund based on some foreign nation's rapidly dropping currency I would be right here posting about it too.

2weiX

legendary

Activity: 2072

Merit: 1006

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Quote from: HighInBC on March 13, 2013, 01:23:39 PM

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 01:09:15 PM

Quote from: aric on March 13, 2013, 01:00:19 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 13, 2013, 12:50:17 PM

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"

not.

This is specious reasoning. We are talking about failure to deliver a product here, not someone changing their mind when the price changes.

I know what everyone's talking about.

I just think that the two issues are, well, different matters, and that most of you have fallen into the "bitcoin is a value-storing-commodity" trap instead of realizing that bitcoin is a means of MOVING value.

in this case, X Bitcoins have been used to move the value of $item from A to B.

But hey, that's just my opinion, IANAL. Also, it could be avoided by just delivering $item by any which means.

HighInBC

member

Activity: 85

Merit: 10

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 01:09:15 PM

Quote from: aric on March 13, 2013, 01:00:19 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 13, 2013, 12:50:17 PM

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"

not.

This is specious reasoning. We are talking about failure to deliver a product here, not someone changing their mind when the price changes.

aric

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 01:09:15 PM

Quote from: aric on March 13, 2013, 01:00:19 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 13, 2013, 12:50:17 PM

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"

not.

No. Read this person's issue again. He didn't receive a product. The product wasn't even sent.

He can't come back weeks later and expect a refund in anything other than the original amount of BTC he paid. Likewise, he can't expect more than the original amount of metal he purchased, as you highlight. The comparative rate of BTC is meaningless. If Coinabul can't provide the product in a timely manner, then they can't. That means the refund is in BTC. It doesn't matter if BTC crashes to $1 USD: 1 BTC either. Refunding in a different BTC amount is inexcusable. Doing otherwise is laughably unfair. I'm surprised by anyone who doesn't realize that.

2weiX

legendary

Activity: 2072

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Quote from: aric on March 13, 2013, 01:00:19 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 13, 2013, 12:50:17 PM

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

by the same reasoning you can buy 1oz now, then come back 5 weeks later and say "BTC has doubled, send me another 1oz, ok"

not.

aric

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 13, 2013, 12:50:17 PM

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

It wouldn't matter if a page showed USD prices along with BTC. Paying in BTC implies being refunded the full/original BTC amount, no matter what USD prices are on the page. Anything else is a seller hedging value against the buyer.

SgtSpike

legendary

Activity: 1400

Merit: 1005

Quote from: HighInBC on March 13, 2013, 12:33:32 PM

The refund should be given in the exact currency paid, bitcoins.

If I traded 55 oz of silver coins for 1 gold coin and you never delivered the gold coin and the silver/gold ratio changed to 30 would you only give back 30 oz of silver? The idea that you have to sell a coin back to them instead of getting a refund nonsense, he paid for delivery so he either gets it delivered or a full refund.

USD don't enter into it. If the person wanted to trade in USD they likely would have gone to a conventional gold dealer.

No company should use their customer as a hedge. It is not the customers fault that the company spent bitcoins on gold that they could not ship before the price in bitcoins went down.

They need either send the metal he paid for or return all of the payment. To give back less bitcoins than paid it nothing short of a rip off.

As long as USD isn't shown on the order page, invoice, or receipt, I agree 100%.

bravenec

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 12:07:16 PM

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).

That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

Thank you. This is what I wanted and what I offered to Coinabul a week ago. I want to make trade and I will be happy if I get Krugerrand for my bitcoins spent. I will contact Coinabul and send him this offer again.

prezbo

sr. member

Activity: 430

Merit: 250

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 12:07:16 PM

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).

That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

If you're from europe definitely use this guy ^^. He's awesome.

HighInBC

member

Activity: 85

Merit: 10

The refund should be given in the exact currency paid, bitcoins.

If I traded 55 oz of silver coins for 1 gold coin and you never delivered the gold coin and the silver/gold ratio changed to 30 would you only give back 30 oz of silver? The idea that you have to sell a coin back to them instead of getting a refund nonsense, he paid for delivery so he either gets it delivered or a full refund.

USD don't enter into it. If the person wanted to trade in USD they likely would have gone to a conventional gold dealer.

No company should use their customer as a hedge. It is not the customers fault that the company spent bitcoins on gold that they could not ship before the price in bitcoins went down.

They need either send the metal he paid for or return all of the payment. To give back less bitcoins than paid it nothing short of a rip off.

aric

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Quote from: 2weiX on March 13, 2013, 12:07:16 PM

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).

That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

No, that isn't valid. People transact in bitcoin for a reason: to not transact in USD. Bitcoin is its own denomination. It stands completely independent of USD. Any other practice allows the seller to take a buyer's money if the relative value of their bitcoins increases. Likewise, no matter how low the bitcoin value goes down, the refund would still be in BTC. The thought of spending other people's money and hedging on customers is offensive and crooked.

We're not talking about a person who's unhappy with a product they received. We're talking about a person who was never sent the product.

aric

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Quote from: bravenec on March 13, 2013, 11:05:32 AM

There is a new email from me to Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

Don't argue with them over market prices. This is a very simple matter. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You gave them 90+ BTC for a product.
They didn't have the product and/or were unable to send it.
They kept your 90+ BTC.

You are not responsible if they sell your BTC in the meanwhile. They are. No legit business would spend someone's funds before the delivery is fully completed, let alone spend it without even sending the product! Accepting anything less than a full 90+ BTC refund is unacceptable. Also, it's entirely disrespectful of them if they're trying to weasel you around to get free bitcoins from you.

2weiX

legendary

Activity: 2072

Merit: 1006

this space intentionally left blank

As a competitor of sorts to coinabul I have kept out of these threads for now.
I am, just as in the BFL refund case, of the opinion that coinabul owes the price of the product in USD.

Aside from how the whole thing was handled, the buyer has parted with his BTC and has bought a Krugerrand.

He will be refunded an amount of any currency that allows him to buy one Krugerrand (ie he is refunded "The Krugerrand" in-like).

That being said, I would happily act as a middle man for OP.
I will sell ship a Krugerrand to CZR *at cost* (under 40 BTC right now).
FedEx insured door-to-door.
Should OP agree to this, he may take it up to coinabul and then PM me for details.
With this, I will withdraw from the thread.

bravenec

newbie

Activity: 28

Merit: 0

There is a new email from me to Coinabul:

http://bravenec.eu/coinabul/

Topic: SCAM - Coinabul owe me 90btc - page 8. (Read 18449 times)