SEC Charges Bitcoin Savings and Trust (BTCST) as Ponzi Scheme - page 11.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: twentyseventy on July 23, 2013, 12:52:13 PM

I don't think "SEC" and "quick compliance" really go hand in hand.

Heh, it only took the SEC 20 years, multiple whistle blowers holding their hand and drawing them a picture, and a spectacular collapse/ensuing scandal to notice Bernie Madoff. Tongue

OTOH the SEC will gut nobodies like us in a flash, if we act like free people and engage in mutually beneficial voluntary transactions without regard to their vast opaque, incomplete, and contradictory regulatory apparatus.

Mabsark

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Quote from: greyhawk on July 23, 2013, 12:59:58 PM

Quote from: Mabsark on July 23, 2013, 12:49:34 PM

This may come as a surprise to you but US law is irrelevant outside the US and these exchanges are not US based.

Look at Liberty Reserve for how well that argument worked out for them.

What does that have to with the fact that the SEC has no jurisdiction outside the US? Liberty Reserve was taken down through collaboration, not the SEC forcing US law upon sovereign nations.

wachtwoord

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Quote from: mccoyspace on July 23, 2013, 12:38:21 PM

Dear BTCT, Bitfunder, Mpex, icbit, et. al..... get ready for a visit from the SEC.

BTCT is officially a play environment. MPex isn't in the US. I'm not sure about the others.

Vbs

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http://www.businessinsider.com/sec-charges-texas-man-with-running-bitcoin-ponzi-scheme-2013-7

https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2013/comp-pr2013-132.pdf

Mabsark

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Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:59:22 PM

I've softened my post a bit with some stealth-editing. The message remains the same, though: Unregistered exchanges servicing US customers are not flying under anybody's radar. US entities issuing "securities" aren't either. None of this is "virtual" from the SEC's perspective. An investment is an investment. Denomination in BTC does not exempt it from such.

Who exactly are these "Unregistered exchanges" and "US entities" you are talking about?

greyhawk

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Quote from: Mabsark on July 23, 2013, 12:49:34 PM

This may come as a surprise to you but US law is irrelevant outside the US and these exchanges are not US based.

Look at Liberty Reserve for how well that argument worked out for them.

MSantori

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I've softened my post a bit with some stealth-editing. The message remains the same, though: Unregistered exchanges servicing US customers are not flying under anybody's radar. US entities issuing "securities" aren't either. None of this is "virtual" from the SEC's perspective. An investment is an investment. Denomination in BTC does not exempt it from such.

matuszed

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Shouldn't the recent lift of the ban of general solicitation cover exchanges such as these to a degree?

iCEBREAKER

legendary

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: rustyh17 on July 23, 2013, 12:40:47 PM

Roughly speaking, how would an exchange "come into compliance" quickly?

There is no clear path to compliance. That would be too easy and not allow for maximum extraction of rent via duress under color of law.

"Come into compliance" is code for 'play ball or else.'

This is nothing less than an extortionist demand for the low friction Bitcoin economy to move backwards, and mimic the gross inefficiencies in the hyper-regulated dying world of fiat trash.

The putative regulatory agency in question, the SEC, has been deeply captured by the very entities it was supposed to be keeping under control.

Bitcoin and its efficient markets represent an existential threat to those rent-collecting entities.

"Give us silk-suited thugs of the lawyer mafia all your profits, or else we'll use our guns and tanks to hurt you" is the bottom line here.

The question is whether we accept these initiations of force like slaves, or retaliate in self-defense in the manner of Bitcoin-empowered sovereign individuals.

twentyseventy

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Quote from: rustyh17 on July 23, 2013, 12:40:47 PM

Quote from: matuszed on July 23, 2013, 12:35:11 PM

Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:27:04 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on July 23, 2013, 12:09:07 PM

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

I think they are pretty good, actually. From the attendant Investor Alert:

"the fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform"

and, here's the real kicker:

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time. Looks like I was right.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You are selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws. Come into compliance, and do it quickly.

Yea the only thing I think that might be a saving grace is are any of these listed securities worth the SEC's time.

Roughly speaking, how would an exchange "come into compliance" quickly?

I don't think "SEC" and "quick compliance" really go hand in hand.

Mabsark

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Quote from: btceic on July 23, 2013, 12:33:29 PM

Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:27:04 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on July 23, 2013, 12:09:07 PM

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

I think they are pretty good, actually. From the attendant Investor Alert:

"the fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform"

and, here's the real kicker:

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time. Looks like I was right.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You are selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws. Come into compliance, and do it quickly.

any comment for those of us on the investor side of the equation? i.e. folks that are purchasing stocks, bonds, etc on these exchanges?

I don't live in the US and I'm not using US based exchanges. What more is there to say?

Mabsark

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Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:27:04 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on July 23, 2013, 12:09:07 PM

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

I think they are pretty good, actually. From the attendant Investor Alert:

"the fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform"

and, here's the real kicker:

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time. Looks like I was right.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You are selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws. Come into compliance, and do it quickly.

This may come as a surprise to you but US law is irrelevant outside the US and these exchanges are not US based.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:27:04 PM

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time. Looks like I was right.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You are selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws. Come into compliance, and do it quickly.

Not everyone is as eager as you to lick the boots of the authoritarian state.

Of course as a lawyer you depend on sniveling cowardice in the face of centralized coercion to make money, so no real surprise there.

Many bitcoiners, being agorists, are explicitly dedicated to using the free (so-called 'black') market to undermine and eventually overtake the oligarchs' crony pseudo-capitalist economic structures.

We will not comply. We will live as free men and see who has a problem with that. Then come the assassination markets...

rustyh17

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Quote from: matuszed on July 23, 2013, 12:35:11 PM

Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:27:04 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on July 23, 2013, 12:09:07 PM

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

I think they are pretty good, actually. From the attendant Investor Alert:

"the fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform"

and, here's the real kicker:

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time. Looks like I was right.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You are selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws. Come into compliance, and do it quickly.

Yea the only thing I think that might be a saving grace is are any of these listed securities worth the SEC's time.

Roughly speaking, how would an exchange "come into compliance" quickly?

mccoyspace

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Dear BTCT, Bitfunder, Mpex, icbit, et. al..... get ready for a visit from the SEC.

matuszed

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Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:27:04 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on July 23, 2013, 12:09:07 PM

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

I think they are pretty good, actually. From the attendant Investor Alert:

"the fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform"

and, here's the real kicker:

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time. Looks like I was right.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You are selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws. Come into compliance, and do it quickly.

Yea the only thing I think that might be a saving grace is are any of these listed securities worth the SEC's time.

btceic

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♫ A wave came crashing like a fist to the jaw ♫

Quote from: MSantori on July 23, 2013, 12:27:04 PM

Quote from: Peter Lambert on July 23, 2013, 12:09:07 PM

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

I think they are pretty good, actually. From the attendant Investor Alert:

"the fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform"

and, here's the real kicker:

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time. Looks like I was right.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You are selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws. Come into compliance, and do it quickly.

any comment for those of us on the investor side of the equation? i.e. folks that are purchasing stocks, bonds, etc on these exchanges?

MSantori

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Activity: 168

Merit: 100

Quote from: Peter Lambert on July 23, 2013, 12:09:07 PM

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

I think they are pretty good, actually. From the attendant Investor Alert:

"the fraud may also involve an unregistered offering or trading platform"

and, here's the real kicker:

"Any investment in securities in the United states remains subject to the jurisdiction of the SEC regardless of whether the investment is made in U.S. dollars or a virtual currency. In particular, individuals selling investments are typically subject to federal or state licensing requirements."

I have, of course, counseled my clients on this point for some time.

Attention Unregistered Exchanges, Perpetual Mining Bonds (PMBs), REITs, and other members of the Bitcoin investment space: The SEC has explicitly indicated its intention to apply the already-existing laws to your security. You may be selling securities in violation of the Securities Laws.

Peter Lambert

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It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye

Quote from: burnside on July 23, 2013, 11:51:05 AM

Quote from: matuszed on July 23, 2013, 11:44:52 AM

https://www.sec.gov/servlet/Satellite/News/PressRelease/Detail/PressRelease/1370539730583#.Ue6zJo1WZ8F

About time!

What do you think about the chances they will charge everything on BTCT as illigal investment offerings?

vlaoou321

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