SEC Charges Bitcoin Savings and Trust (BTCST) as Ponzi Scheme - page 6.

AngelSky

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Quote from: burnside on July 24, 2013, 05:36:20 PM

Eh, there's more here than meets the eye if you know where to look.

And where do you suggest we go to find the people who have more knowledge on the subject? A person could spend weeks interviewing local lawyers and not find one who'd heard of Bitcoin, let alone has practiced law around it. Even then, you almost need a team of lawyers, as we're all human and there's a risk of missing something important.

Still, I do see your point and will try to be more careful going forward.

You're actually running a business (a big one in the btc world) and your questions/messages are read here. I understand that you need to communicate with the bitcoin community about what's comming next and get advices, but maybe you can do that in a more PR way like any other prof. business. Your words have a weight because people have BTCs on your website, and some of them have a lot.

Please, next time you communicate, think about the impact your words will have.

Patrick

EDIT: even if I agree with you about the "natural selection"

btcdrak

legendary

Activity: 1064

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@burnside - please put this all in perspective. The SEC has rightly charged a fraudster. That's a good thing. You are not a fraudster nor do you have the intent. You are not in their gun sights. As for the whole US thing - it's simple, just do what S.DICE. You should relocate your server ANYWAY, just like any gambling sites.

You DO need to create confidence because there is clearly evidence of panic on BTC-TC atm. So please release a statement soon and don't paint doom. I would gladly take over your site, I am not afraid to run a system like that nor get involved with all the legal stuff (and I can code to boot).

ffssixtynine

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Quote from: Pale Phoenix on July 24, 2013, 03:59:18 PM

I thought from your previous posts that you were an experienced, level headed business person, but the above suggests otherwise. It's an incredibly irresponsible, reactionary, stream of nonsense.

I posted that *after* engaging a lawyer to discuss SEC exposure to exchanges, funds, and how to mitigate the risk. I don't have a fund but I am worried about my money being in exchanges and assets/shares, and I was vaguely considering a fund.

Everything else I posted was before.

It is also based on the assumption of Burnside's personal or server exposure in the US (based on his own concerns expressed here).

If he doesn't, the situ is rather different and risks much lower as the US couldn't really touch him.

velacreations

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Activity: 476

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yeah, he didn't say that, so stop acting like you had a valid reason to panic when someone is just discussing a HYPOTHETICAL

And, IMO, this whole discussion is completely overreacting to something that is unlikely to happen, ie. the SEC taking notice of bitcoin exchanges.

But, thanks for the panic, I do appreciate cheap share prices, guys! Grin

burnside

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Lead Blockchain Developer

Quote from: ar9 on July 24, 2013, 06:02:30 PM

Wow.

Burnside...
Not a cool thing to do as a site operator.

I'm gonna take a break for a few hours.

I suggest everyone chills a bit. Wink

ar9

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Activity: 352

Merit: 250

Wow.

Burnside...
Not a cool thing to do as a site operator.

burnside

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Quote from: Mabsark on July 24, 2013, 05:49:53 PM

Your response basically said that you would most likely block US citizens from using the site. Because of your statement, a load of US citizens sold their shares in a panic. Your statement was directly responsible for that.

Unless you make some sort of statement to reassure US users instead of scaring the shit out of them, you may as well kiss your site goodbye.

Maybe I could have been clearer, but maybe you just missed this:

Quote from: burnside on July 24, 2013, 02:50:58 PM

- I'd do it over 30 days. (for 30 days you could buy and sell)
- US (non-issuer) accounts would always be able to sell after that. The block would be on buying. This way we don't screw anyone over.
- I'd have an override in the accounts section saying "I do solemnly swear that I am not a resident of the US" for people that get mistakenly detected as being US residents or who pass their traffic through US tor nodes or proxies. (Why you'd do that is beyond me... just makes you an NSA target.) You'd have to e-sign to get the block lifted from your account.

This is by no means set it stone, don't get too jumpy yet if you're in the US. Wink

I've been discussing things with Ukyo, as he's been working on some legal approaches to liberating Bitcoin exchanges and I want to make sure we don't harm anyone unnecessarily as we bring things into compliance.

If you read that and jumped off a bridge then I'm going to have to call it natural selection.

redbeans2012

hero member

Activity: 887

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Quote

Your response basically said that you would most likely block US citizens from using the site. Because of your statement, a load of US citizens sold their shares in a panic. Your statement was directly responsible for that.

Unless you make some sort of statement to reassure US users instead of scaring the shit out of them, you may as well kiss your site goodbye.

+1

SoylentCreek

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

My official gameplan for this evening:

ajk

donator

Activity: 447

Merit: 250

Quote from: kleeck on July 24, 2013, 05:43:21 PM

No, you're whining, plain and simple. It's outrageous that you would come onto a forum made for discussing securities and events around securities and ridicule someone who is discussing a major event that has a direct impact on BTC securities. You're a joke and you're annoying.

Continuing to say the same thing over and over will not change that.

To cheap shares! Grin

Alright cockblock. enjoy making your pennies off the ill liquid securities instead of investing in them when no one else was, gonna pop my ignore cherry after this so congratulations to you,

heres why I even said anything to you, You shat on Creavtix who doesnt deserve it considering he had just lost money, you essentially were kicking a man when hes down and I do not appreciate that hence why I spoke up,

You are cool. Goodbye

Mabsark

legendary

Activity: 826

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Quote from: burnside on July 24, 2013, 05:10:57 PM

Quote from: ajk on July 24, 2013, 04:32:56 PM

Wow. Markets Move thats great you sound like you know what your talking about when it comes to trading, there is a difference between news and dropping speculation if Burnside had definite answers about what he was doing without having to say, " I need to contact lawyers" then it would be a different story

also Wow, rebound? the guys share price was much higher than .45 previous to all the unnecessarily CAUSED PANIC, this was not news this was induced

you are so smart

BTC-TC is first and foremost a community exchange. Open discourse is going to happen and I primarily respond when and where necessary to reduce the speculation, not increase it. You have to understand that the strength of BTC-TC is largely within this process... that is, we discuss things and generate ideas BEFORE taking action. It's easy for one man to make huge mistakes acting entirely of his own accord. Open discussion with a group of level-headed individuals is worth it's weight in gold.

Also, If I recall correctly, I suggested that rather than doing anything knee-jerk we would explore our options and do everything we could to act responsibly. Imagine what the next few days would have been like if I had not responded at all to the post suggesting that we need to shut the door "immediately".

Quote from: Pale Phoenix on July 24, 2013, 03:55:15 PM

There is no need to panic.

The SEC is not going to pursue some guy mining coins in his garage and, barring fraud, the chance that they will pursue an exchange, or anyone at all, is very small.

Exposure to Regulation D is not new, it's been there all along, and anyone paying attention has known that. But the regulations around crowdfunding will soon change, and it's extremely unlikely that any sort of enforcement will happen before they are sorted out. Not to mention, without evidence of fraud, any enforcement is likely to come in the form of a cease and desist letter, not criminal charges.

Burnside, I'd urge you to stop speculating in public about what you may or may not do, as you are needlessly spooking the markets. Take some time to think about reducing your risk, get some advice, and come up with a plan that can be implemented over time without permanently damaging the exchange.

May cooler heads prevail!

Thank you, very good post.

Your response basically said that you would most likely block US citizens from using the site. Because of your statement, a load of US citizens sold their shares in a panic. Your statement was directly responsible for that.

Unless you make some sort of statement to reassure US users instead of scaring the shit out of them, you may as well kiss your site goodbye.

ajk

donator

Activity: 447

Merit: 250

Quote from: burnside on July 24, 2013, 05:36:20 PM

Eh, there's more here than meets the eye if you know where to look.

And where do you suggest we go to find the people who have more knowledge on the subject? A person could spend weeks interviewing local lawyers and not find one who'd heard of Bitcoin, let alone has practiced law around it. Even then, you almost need a team of lawyers, as we're all human and there's a risk of missing something important.

Still, I do see your point and will try to be more careful going forward.

Ive no clue but it also isnt my responsibility since I do not operate or own an exchange, obviously this wasnt a foreseeable circumstance hence why we are in the current situation trying to pick apart the pieces, I appreciate you taking the time to respond and that things will be handled with better care,

Really hope the exchange doesnt have to do anything and can continue as is but that is just hope

kleeck

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

https://karatcoin.co

Quote from: ajk on July 24, 2013, 05:15:13 PM

Why are you asking the BTC community who here has any real advice to give that can actually be taken with credit and not a grain of salt

im just saying that the situation could have been handled better with people who have more knowledge on the subject than a bunch of speculative investors

No, you're whining, plain and simple. It's outrageous that you would come onto a forum made for discussing securities and events around securities and ridicule someone who is discussing a major event that has a direct impact on BTC securities. You're a joke and you're annoying.

Continuing to say the same thing over and over will not change that.

To cheap shares! Grin

burnside

legendary

Activity: 1106

Merit: 1004

Lead Blockchain Developer

Quote from: ajk on July 24, 2013, 05:15:13 PM

Why are you asking the BTC community who here has any real advice to give that can actually be taken with credit and not a grain of salt

im just saying that the situation could have been handled better with people who have more knowledge on the subject than a bunch of speculative investors

Eh, there's more here than meets the eye if you know where to look.

And where do you suggest we go to find the people who have more knowledge on the subject? A person could spend weeks interviewing local lawyers and not find one who'd heard of Bitcoin, let alone has practiced law around it. Even then, you almost need a team of lawyers, as we're all human and there's a risk of missing something important.

Still, I do see your point and will try to be more careful going forward.

ajk

donator

Activity: 447

Merit: 250

Why are you asking the BTC community who here has any real advice to give that can actually be taken with credit and not a grain of salt

im just saying that the situation could have been handled better with people who have more knowledge on the subject than a bunch of speculative investors

burnside

legendary

Activity: 1106

Merit: 1004

Lead Blockchain Developer

Quote from: ajk on July 24, 2013, 04:32:56 PM

Wow. Markets Move thats great you sound like you know what your talking about when it comes to trading, there is a difference between news and dropping speculation if Burnside had definite answers about what he was doing without having to say, " I need to contact lawyers" then it would be a different story

also Wow, rebound? the guys share price was much higher than .45 previous to all the unnecessarily CAUSED PANIC, this was not news this was induced

you are so smart

BTC-TC is first and foremost a community exchange. Open discourse is going to happen and I primarily respond when and where necessary to reduce the speculation, not increase it. You have to understand that the strength of BTC-TC is largely within this process... that is, we discuss things and generate ideas BEFORE taking action. It's easy for one man to make huge mistakes acting entirely of his own accord. Open discussion with a group of level-headed individuals is worth it's weight in gold.

Also, If I recall correctly, I suggested that rather than doing anything knee-jerk we would explore our options and do everything we could to act responsibly. Imagine what the next few days would have been like if I had not responded at all to the post suggesting that we need to shut the door "immediately".

Quote from: Pale Phoenix on July 24, 2013, 03:55:15 PM

There is no need to panic.

The SEC is not going to pursue some guy mining coins in his garage and, barring fraud, the chance that they will pursue an exchange, or anyone at all, is very small.

Exposure to Regulation D is not new, it's been there all along, and anyone paying attention has known that. But the regulations around crowdfunding will soon change, and it's extremely unlikely that any sort of enforcement will happen before they are sorted out. Not to mention, without evidence of fraud, any enforcement is likely to come in the form of a cease and desist letter, not criminal charges.

Burnside, I'd urge you to stop speculating in public about what you may or may not do, as you are needlessly spooking the markets. Take some time to think about reducing your risk, get some advice, and come up with a plan that can be implemented over time without permanently damaging the exchange.

May cooler heads prevail!

Thank you, very good post.

tinus42

hero member

Activity: 784

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Quote from: prophetx on July 24, 2013, 02:02:32 PM

luckily I am no longer living in the US. the EU countries for now seem to be much more accommodating to these businesses.

Depends where you live. The Netherlands is very subservient to multinational business interests. They close down "pirate sites" for Hollywood's sake but allow predatory practices by banks and multinationals and offer them cheap tax incentives. Embarrassed

ajk

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everyone knows that one nor do I think it is good, it doesnt suit my style of trading hence why I have the quote listed

Ya man definitely I would love to capitalize off the situation (being absolutely sarcastic) for the whole like 20 BTC you can buy without blasting the share price, the market is extremely non liquid for both cog and bASIC

if kleek or whatever said something useful without bashing creavtix for doing his job and doing nothing wrong but speaking out when Burnside dropped "news" he could have kept behind closed doors til he knew more then I wouldnt have said anything, Burnside should realize the power he has considering he is the owner of BTCT but obviously didnt think about the effect of the weight of his words (or did he?)

either way the situation could have been handled better by Burnside and kleek can enjoy expressing his opinion while I express mine

redbeans2012

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I don't blame people for selling their securities so they can keep their hands on bitcoins. Lots of us remember the GLBSE and it sucks having everything in limbo when things get shut down.

canth

legendary

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Heh. It really sounds like you followed the advice in your signature and ended up being the fool. Maybe a better quote to follow would be something from Mr Buffett:

“We simply attempt to be fearful when others are greedy and to be greedy only when others are fearful.”

Topic: SEC Charges Bitcoin Savings and Trust (BTCST) as Ponzi Scheme - page 6. (Read 24296 times)