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Topic: SEC Charges Bitcoin Savings and Trust (BTCST) as Ponzi Scheme - page 2. (Read 24447 times)

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?

Kim Dotcom succesfully fought extradition charges in New Zealand.

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/partner-zone-infosecurity/kim-dotcom-wins-round-extradition

He'll do wise not to travel to any country that extradites people to the US though.

They stole all his property though and lost millions.

AFAIK he still has his villa and still has millions. He staged a fake FBI raid when he launched MEGA. That must have cost him a large amount of money. Of course all his assets which he held in the US are seized.

He lost a lot due to confiscation, much much more than he still has.

I wouldn't mind having what he still has. And since he has a knack for business he'll soon recoup his losses with the money he has left to invest. Cheesy

So not the point. You sound like those people who think it's okay to tax those that earn more than average to death because "they can afford it". Right ...

I just say that he will do well. Not that it's right what the US did to him. Far from that...  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?

Kim Dotcom succesfully fought extradition charges in New Zealand.

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/partner-zone-infosecurity/kim-dotcom-wins-round-extradition

He'll do wise not to travel to any country that extradites people to the US though.

They stole all his property though and lost millions.

AFAIK he still has his villa and still has millions. He staged a fake FBI raid when he launched MEGA. That must have cost him a large amount of money. Of course all his assets which he held in the US are seized.

He lost a lot due to confiscation, much much more than he still has.

I wouldn't mind having what he still has. And since he has a knack for business he'll soon recoup his losses with the money he has left to invest. Cheesy

So not the point. You sound like those people who think it's okay to tax those that earn more than average to death because "they can afford it". Right ...
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?

Kim Dotcom succesfully fought extradition charges in New Zealand.

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/partner-zone-infosecurity/kim-dotcom-wins-round-extradition

He'll do wise not to travel to any country that extradites people to the US though.

They stole all his property though and lost millions.

AFAIK he still has his villa and still has millions. He staged a fake FBI raid when he launched MEGA. That must have cost him a large amount of money. Of course all his assets which he held in the US are seized.

He lost a lot due to confiscation, much much more than he still has.

I wouldn't mind having what he still has. And since he has a knack for business he'll soon recoup his losses with the money he has left to invest. Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?

Kim Dotcom succesfully fought extradition charges in New Zealand.

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/partner-zone-infosecurity/kim-dotcom-wins-round-extradition

He'll do wise not to travel to any country that extradites people to the US though.

They stole all his property though and lost millions.

AFAIK he still has his villa and still has millions. He staged a fake FBI raid when he launched MEGA. That must have cost him a large amount of money. Of course all his assets which he held in the US are seized.

He lost a lot due to confiscation, much much more than he still has.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?

Kim Dotcom succesfully fought extradition charges in New Zealand.

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/partner-zone-infosecurity/kim-dotcom-wins-round-extradition

He'll do wise not to travel to any country that extradites people to the US though.

They stole all his property though and lost millions.

AFAIK he still has his villa and still has millions. He staged a fake FBI raid when he launched MEGA. That must have cost him a large amount of money. Of course all his assets which he held in the US are seized.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?

Kim Dotcom succesfully fought extradition charges in New Zealand.

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/partner-zone-infosecurity/kim-dotcom-wins-round-extradition

He'll do wise not to travel to any country that extradites people to the US though.

They stole all his property though and lost millions.
legendary
Activity: 1554
Merit: 1009
Do you see anything wrong with the picture? Sure, you don't want to go to jail. I have news for you, Gerald: you're already in jail. This is what jail is, this is what jail means, this is what it feels like. You're already there. Whether you move from the large jail cell hosting everyone else you know to one of the smaller cells isn't even up to you, because, again, this is what jail is. When your keepers decide to move you they will move you, and that decision has absolutely nothing to do with you. Sure, they'll represent it otherwise, especially if they may extract amusement out of you by doing so, much like a cat will play with a captured mouse. Go ahead, argue with me, explain how wrong I am and how great it all is. Make our day, mine and theirs equally, as that's the one bridge that unites the free people and the gaolers of the world: their equal contempt for that other kind of people.

не созда́й свою собственную тюрьму.

hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
Trying to put words on the page see if I can begin formulating substance from an idea.

Nothing wrong with that in principle, but there's always the consideration of context. If you whimsically muse about how women are on average shorter than men at some women's lib convention you might end up with a riot on your hands. Even though women actually are shorter than men.

Granted, on the Internet context is always a mess, so what can you do.

I want to make a MPEx account just because of that post. Kudos.

Initially, I was a n00b. I thought you were crazy, a lunatic, the "village idiot" that keeps on rambling.

I thought you're obnoxious. Stupid. And annoying. I disregarded everything you said.

As time went on and history was in the making, I realized that you're nearly always right.

Many others don't seem to appreciate your opinion, judgement or wisdom. But that's okay, because they're sticking their head in the sand.

I laugh when someone accuses Mireca and Hannah being the same person with multiple personality disorder Cheesy

Kinda how it goes for the people that are paying attention.
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 250
edit: on second thought i may be making too many presumptions with my analysis. i dont know how easy/hard this would be to do in reality, so take what i have said with a grain of salt.

So if you don't know, then why are you talking?

Lol, thank you for the thoughtful post. I edited at the end because I realized my words wouldn't hold weight. Again, they were just musings. Trying to put words on the page see if I can begin formulating substance from an idea.

You make good points I won't bother getting dirty over each statement because you are right for the ones that count. If you don't want to believe in the possibility of a p2p exchange that is certainly fine with me, I won't stop you. Especially after reading this:
Quote
MP doesn't think "outside the box". MP tells you where the box you should be thinking in is. If you fail to follow that you lose, and if you don't believe so go ahead and convince yourself. The entire forum pretty much consists of the life stories of people who verified this point for their own needs so far.
hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 501
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?

Kim Dotcom succesfully fought extradition charges in New Zealand.

http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/partner-zone-infosecurity/kim-dotcom-wins-round-extradition

He'll do wise not to travel to any country that extradites people to the US though.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
I do not sell Bitcoins. I sell SHA256(SHA256()).
I want to make a MPEx account just because of that post. Kudos.

Initially, I was a n00b. I thought you were crazy, a lunatic, the "village idiot" that keeps on rambling.

I thought you're obnoxious. Stupid. And annoying. I disregarded everything you said.

As time went on and history was in the making, I realized that you're nearly always right.

Many others don't seem to appreciate your opinion, judgement or wisdom. But that's okay, because they're sticking their head in the sand.

I laugh when someone accuses Mireca and Hannah being the same person with multiple personality disorder Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 522
The discussion going on in this thread about limiting US-based investors is a perfect example of a good use case;

I fail to grasp how you imagine implementing some sort of p2p exchange attempt is going to resolve or even allow limiting users by geographical accident.

Here it would be relatively trivial to build a client that interfaced with the btc protocol but added an extra layer of complexity

And also relatively trivial to bypass. What are you on about?!

Did he really just use that excuse? If the investors trusted the company enough to invest in their shares they could also trust them to store the blockchain and run an SPV node on their client. No need to worry about the blockchain.

Then by your standards MPEx already is a p2p exchange. Problem solved, go use it.

It is conceivable that someone could build a model for this, and when a company wished to issue shares, they would modify the conditions, much like the process in creating an alt cryptocurrency.

Everything is conceivable. The point of the article is that what you "coinceive" isn't worth two shits, because that's not what the game is. We're not ALL a bunch of stoners hanging about "conceiving" fucking "ideas". Does this get through at all?

I feel like he isn't thinking outside the box here.

Srsly now.

MP doesn't think "outside the box". MP tells you where the box you should be thinking in is. If you fail to follow that you lose, and if you don't believe so go ahead and convince yourself. The entire forum pretty much consists of the life stories of people who verified this point for their own needs so far.

They are withstanding, though. Not to mention their argument about the 'issuer', which I admit is a clever reading of the law, will not hold up in court. As we saw with FinCEN guidence earlier this year, they made a stipulation for the issuer problem and just did a side step around it. This will most likely happen with the SEC as well.

Nobody cares what US regulatory agencies say, outside of the people working for those very agencies. This is what happens when a state goes rogue.

Let me drive this point home with a number of illustrations. Clapper vs Amnesty International:

edit: on second thought i may be making too many presumptions with my analysis. i dont know how easy/hard this would be to do in reality, so take what i have said with a grain of salt.

So if you don't know, then why are you talking?

Erik Voorhees was wise to sell SDICE and pay back all the investors before the same thing happened to him.
FYI that would necessarily devoid him of any responsibility.  If I started a casino then sold it to jimmy that I still broke the law and profited from the crime and could still be prosecuted.

In theory but in reality no smoke less chance of a fire.

The chances of a prosecution go down (especially over time) if the operation is wrapped up and there is no complaint.  While yes if the staute of limitations is 7 years they could wait until 2021 and prosecute him them but that probably isn't going to happen.  This is the government we are talking about.  There is always some new dumbass to go after which is still in the news and seen as a "bigger deal".

There's two kinds of people in this world, of which arguably only one kind actually is people.

Consider your own case, rather than the distant one of Erik, as similar as it may be. You had a business, you were damned good at it, you were doing something useful and being appreciated by your peers for it.

Then one day you shuttered the whole thing, out of fear of your own government. Not because you were doing something wrong, not because what you were doing wasn't worth doing, but simply because you live in a country which terrorizes its citizens as a matter of common policy (and would try its darndest to terrorize foreign nationals, too, in the hopes they may respond in kind which then can be used as "proof" of the putative "terrorism" which the government "is defending" people from. By creating it, by doing it in the first place.) So what do you have now? As much gin at The Chestnut Tree as you can stand? Well ain't that something!

Do you see anything wrong with the picture? Sure, you don't want to go to jail. I have news for you, Gerald: you're already in jail. This is what jail is, this is what jail means, this is what it feels like. You're already there. Whether you move from the large jail cell hosting everyone else you know to one of the smaller cells isn't even up to you, because, again, this is what jail is. When your keepers decide to move you they will move you, and that decision has absolutely nothing to do with you. Sure, they'll represent it otherwise, especially if they may extract amusement out of you by doing so, much like a cat will play with a captured mouse. Go ahead, argue with me, explain how wrong I am and how great it all is. Make our day, mine and theirs equally, as that's the one bridge that unites the free people and the gaolers of the world: their equal contempt for that other kind of people.

не созда́й свою собственную тюрьму.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Tell that to all the innocent civilians killed by drones over the past few years.
legendary
Activity: 2324
Merit: 1125
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him

Just like Kim Schmidt?
legendary
Activity: 1025
Merit: 1000
EV doesn't even live in the US, they can't touch him
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
Erik Voorhees was wise to sell SDICE and pay back all the investors before the same thing happened to him.
FYI that would necessarily devoid him of any responsibility.  If I started a casino then sold it to jimmy that I still broke the law and profited from the crime and could still be prosecuted.

In theory but in reality no smoke less chance of a fire.

The chances of a prosecution go down (especially over time) if the operation is wrapped up and there is no complaint.  While yes if the staute of limitations is 7 years they could wait until 2021 and prosecute him them but that probably isn't going to happen.  This is the government we are talking about.  There is always some new dumbass to go after which is still in the news and seen as a "bigger deal".
This is true...  however assume that Erik gets nabed for something else.  They can use it to stack charges.

But I agree that he is most likely ok.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
Erik Voorhees was wise to sell SDICE and pay back all the investors before the same thing happened to him.
FYI that would necessarily devoid him of any responsibility.  If I started a casino then sold it to jimmy that I still broke the law and profited from the crime and could still be prosecuted.

In theory but in reality no smoke less chance of a fire.

The chances of a prosecution go down (especially over time) if the operation is wrapped up and there is no complaint.  While yes if the staute of limitations is 7 years they could wait until 2021 and prosecute him them but that probably isn't going to happen.  This is the government we are talking about.  There is always some new dumbass to go after which is still in the news and seen as a "bigger deal".
hero member
Activity: 560
Merit: 500
I am the one who knocks
Erik Voorhees was wise to sell SDICE and pay back all the investors before the same thing happened to him.
FYI that would necessarily devoid him of any responsibility.  If I started a casino then sold it to jimmy that I still broke the law and profited from the crime and could still be prosecuted.
sr. member
Activity: 279
Merit: 250
...it's about time we start working on decentralized share issuing Smiley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH5OUtWMeZc

Nothing has changed re "decentralized" issuing since January.

The premise of that first article is flawed:
Quote
So, if I say no it’s not because of any other reason than simply the obvious : I do not believe them to be either useful or practical.

The discussion going on in this thread about limiting US-based investors is a perfect example of a good use case; right now (as far as I can tell) btct, bitfunder, etc... don't have extremely nuanced controls over who can buy shares and what they do with them after. **I may be wrong here, please correct me if so.

Here it would be relatively trivial to build a client that interfaced with the btc protocol but added an extra layer of complexity to participating users, namely one could generate classes of rules for their colored coins that would restrict IPs, among other options.

Quote
A person currently interested in owning some Bitcoin will either fire up a web wallet and receive some Bitcoins from a friend/counterparty, or will open MtGox and buy some bitcoins. Conspicuously absent from this either-or list is the downloading, over many days, through an inefficient process, of many Gigabytes of “blockchain”.
Did he really just use that excuse? If the investors trusted the company enough to invest in their shares they could also trust them to store the blockchain and run an SPV node on their client. No need to worry about the blockchain.

Quote
Seriously, start working on the BTC securities trade system of the future without ever having worked for MPEx, without having humbly presented your inept ideas to the most grandiose master Mircea Popescu (ie, me), without anything like that ? O, why, because you’re a special little trainflake of brilliance and genius who can ? Really ?

Glad he made it personal, lol. Not to mention one doesn't have to build a whole trading platform to issue shares. Companies could issue their own shares with their own little colored coin client, no need for top down expertise in the area of running an entire SE needed. They would only have to build in the rules relevant to their issuance. Diligent research would provide you with all the tools you need. At the end you open source the client so people can trust your work.

It is conceivable that someone could build a model for this, and when a company wished to issue shares, they would modify the conditions, much like the process in creating an alt cryptocurrency.

Quote
Go tell the average finance person that any security trade on either side will have to be held an unspecified interval, of no less than five or so minutes and possibly as lengthy as an hour or more... In fact, people double spend securities all the time, it is called short selling. No big deal.  

I feel like he isn't thinking outside the box here. If the central issuer is being trusted and participants have been verified, just lower the number of confirmations. Stipulations could be built in to said color coin to allow for short selling I imagine as well, but again not my expertise I am just musing here.

Quote
Even supposing you can somehow implement this so only crosses, not all transactions end up in the blockchainix, the problem of “what do we do in five years” looms.

Again, if off-chain/micropayment solutions would not work to minimize bloat, you could just fork the chain and run your own party as long as the code is OS and people can see what is going on.

Quote
And for that matter, nothing has changed with regard to the SEC's relevance to Bitcoin financials since 2012, the ignorant flailings of a magistrate judge in Bumfuck notwithstanding.

They are withstanding, though. Not to mention their argument about the 'issuer', which I admit is a clever reading of the law, will not hold up in court. As we saw with FinCEN guidence earlier this year, they made a stipulation for the issuer problem and just did a side step around it. This will most likely happen with the SEC as well.

I won't bother mentioning the fact that the article is very old, and fails to look at precedents set in the past that make similar arguments, namely that it is not money and that calling it as such would stifle video game developers and the like. I think those court cases were even mentioned in here.


edit: on second thought i may be making too many presumptions with my analysis. i dont know how easy/hard this would be to do in reality, so take what i have said with a grain of salt.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
I do not sell Bitcoins. I sell SHA256(SHA256()).
Erik Voorhees was wise to sell SDICE and pay back all the investors before the same thing happened to him.
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