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Topic: SegWit (26.8%) vs Bitcoin Unlimited (32.2%) - page 8. (Read 8430 times)

hero member
Activity: 2128
Merit: 530
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Core and Blockstream don't think there is a fee problem. They want to kick regular people off the network by maintaining 1mb blocks, a limitation originally intended as an anti-spam measure.


I think you got it all wrong with your assessment of Core intention, Lighting will bring the transaction fee down considerably, also the SegWit will move the blocksize to more than 2mb, which I'm sure is significant for now and this will make on chain scaling possible.

I want to ask you do you trust the code written by Bitcoin Unlimited team. When are people going to understand that bigger doesn't mean better
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2548
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
It seems to me that BU will take over Segwit. I dont know if it's good or bad.

But the inability of the devs to figure out a solution faster is leading to this. Plus, we are tired of huge fees.

So whatever can fix the fee problem, I will stand besides it.

If we dont fix the fee problem, we wont have any bitcoin to debate about, so better choose now, and risk bitcoin, than to lose bitcoin altogether over some other coin.

It's a good thing.

Core and Blockstream don't think there is a fee problem. They want to kick regular people off the network by maintaining 1mb blocks, a limitation originally intended as an anti-spam measure.

Bitcoin unlimited isn't against 2nd layer solutions (look up flextrans) but not to the determent of normal people using the Bitcoin Block Chain.


Its pretty logical:

Blockstream offers very limited space for miners, but unlimited for 2nd layer = Blockstream Unlimited 2ndLayer Coins


Good for Miners ?  - No, only good for 2nd layer projects. Penalty for miners. Not economically balanced!



Bitcoin Unlimited offers both - just no limits = real disruption bitcoin   <-  I want rather that

Miners might be more happy with that open competition vs 2nd layer scaling. Better eco balanced.



legendary
Activity: 4424
Merit: 4794
If they didn't think there was a fee problem they wouldn't be working on segwit/LN implementation.

I went looking for a roadmap for BU today and what I found was a seven months old, very weak regarding the current issues, and and vague about the proposals it did have. This is not a serious alternative to core/segwit/LN.  Hating on core without evidence they are doing anything wrong is not going to fix anything.

If I had a miner I'd be doing exactly what the folks on Reddit are doing - signalling support for BU so they go ahead with their plans, then pull the rug out from under them once they commit. It's time to end this foolishness.

simple solutions dont require big re-writes
real workable solutions dont need excuses of why X, Y, X are needed . then downplaying it when its revealed that X and Y are not needed and Z is actually an A(complete opposite)

simple solutions don't need to promise things and then pretend the promises still promise even when it wont be achieved even if they got super majority
simple solutions dont need to suck eggs and write scripts with buzzword of the month competitions to show which spammers are involved in the competition (like a secret handshake)(bucoin btucoin, ad-hom, conservative)
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 107
If I had a miner I'd be doing exactly what the folks on Reddit are doing - signalling support for BU so they go ahead with their plans, then pull the rug out from under them once they commit. It's time to end this foolishness.

While I suppose it is your right to use deception to get what you want, though I'm not sure how that lines up with other passages from the good book you quote in your sig,

Didn't it have some words to say about The Deceiver?
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1036
It seems to me that BU will take over Segwit. I dont know if it's good or bad.

But the inability of the devs to figure out a solution faster is leading to this. Plus, we are tired of huge fees.

So whatever can fix the fee problem, I will stand besides it.

If we dont fix the fee problem, we wont have any bitcoin to debate about, so better choose now, and risk bitcoin, than to lose bitcoin altogether over some other coin.

It's a good thing.

Core and Blockstream don't think there is a fee problem. They want to kick regular people off the network by maintaining 1mb blocks, a limitation originally intended as an anti-spam measure.

Bitcoin unlimited isn't against 2nd layer solutions (look up flextrans) but not to the determent of normal people using the Bitcoin Block Chain.


If they didn't think there was a fee problem they wouldn't be working on segwit/LN implementation.

I went looking for a roadmap for BU today and what I found was a seven months old, very weak regarding the current issues, and and vague about the proposals it did have. This is not a serious alternative to core/segwit/LN.  Hating on core without evidence they are doing anything wrong is not going to fix anything.

If I had a miner I'd be doing exactly what the folks on Reddit are doing - signalling support for BU so they go ahead with their plans, then pull the rug out from under them once they commit. It's time to end this foolishness.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
What happens if there is 50/50 between BU and core and there is a hard fork? Do we now own bitcoin 1.0 and bitcoin 2.0 or do you have to switch your coins to one and hope you made the right choice? I've never been through a hard fork with bitcoins (or any alts tbh).
Your question was previously answered earlier in the thread
(as well as millions of other times in millions of other threads).

...
...
(4) If the hardfork occurs, your coins will be safe as long as you do not transact until it has
been shown to be safe. You will have the same amount of coins on both chains, both
associated with your single privatekey. It is best for noobs to wait and hold their coins until
the community and devs determine it is safe to move and how to move if there are any
special precautions.

Perfect thanks. I was just looking through and still couldn't find the answer. So I'll have bitcoin and a bitcoin clone then I'll just hang onto both and see which does better basically. As long as I don't have to do anything then it's pretty fool proof!

Yes, in theory. If you hold, you are safe.
If you re not experienced in such, you should wait and see before transacting or trading.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
What happens if there is 50/50 between BU and core and there is a hard fork? Do we now own bitcoin 1.0 and bitcoin 2.0 or do you have to switch your coins to one and hope you made the right choice? I've never been through a hard fork with bitcoins (or any alts tbh).

BU will not activate until it has 75% hashing power. Once activated, the hard fork won't go into affect for some time, allowing miners who have not yet transitioned over to make the change... or be left behind.

The code is designed so that it is possible at 51%.
75% is what the community is currently agreeing to defer to.

So "activating" at 75% is contingent that they do not agree to reduce it later,
for example if only 65% could be reached.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1042
What happens if there is 50/50 between BU and core and there is a hard fork? Do we now own bitcoin 1.0 and bitcoin 2.0 or do you have to switch your coins to one and hope you made the right choice? I've never been through a hard fork with bitcoins (or any alts tbh).

Your question was previously answered earlier in the thread
(as well as millions of other times in millions of other threads).


...
...
(4) If the hardfork occurs, your coins will be safe as long as you do not transact until it has
been shown to be safe. You will have the same amount of coins on both chains, both
associated with your single privatekey. It is best for noobs to wait and hold their coins until
the community and devs determine it is safe to move and how to move if there are any
special precautions.


Perfect thanks. I was just looking through and still couldn't find the answer. So I'll have bitcoin and a bitcoin clone then I'll just hang onto both and see which does better basically. As long as I don't have to do anything then it's pretty fool proof!
vip
Activity: 571
Merit: 504
I still <3 u Satoshi
What happens if there is 50/50 between BU and core and there is a hard fork? Do we now own bitcoin 1.0 and bitcoin 2.0 or do you have to switch your coins to one and hope you made the right choice? I've never been through a hard fork with bitcoins (or any alts tbh).

BU will not activate until it has 75% hashing power. Once activated, the hard fork won't go into affect for some time, allowing miners who have not yet transitioned over to make the change... or be left behind.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
What happens if there is 50/50 between BU and core and there is a hard fork? Do we now own bitcoin 1.0 and bitcoin 2.0 or do you have to switch your coins to one and hope you made the right choice? I've never been through a hard fork with bitcoins (or any alts tbh).

Your question was previously answered earlier in the thread
(as well as millions of other times in millions of other threads).


...
...
(4) If the hardfork occurs, your coins will be safe as long as you do not transact until it has
been shown to be safe. You will have the same amount of coins on both chains, both
associated with your single privatekey. It is best for noobs to wait and hold their coins until
the community and devs determine it is safe to move and how to move if there are any
special precautions.
vip
Activity: 571
Merit: 504
I still <3 u Satoshi
It seems to me that BU will take over Segwit. I dont know if it's good or bad.

But the inability of the devs to figure out a solution faster is leading to this. Plus, we are tired of huge fees.

So whatever can fix the fee problem, I will stand besides it.

If we dont fix the fee problem, we wont have any bitcoin to debate about, so better choose now, and risk bitcoin, than to lose bitcoin altogether over some other coin.

It's a good thing.

Core and Blockstream don't think there is a fee problem. They want to kick regular people off the network by maintaining 1mb blocks, a limitation originally intended as an anti-spam measure.

Bitcoin unlimited isn't against 2nd layer solutions (look up flextrans) but not to the determent of normal people using the Bitcoin Block Chain.
legendary
Activity: 966
Merit: 1042
What happens if there is 50/50 between BU and core and there is a hard fork? Do we now own bitcoin 1.0 and bitcoin 2.0 or do you have to switch your coins to one and hope you made the right choice? I've never been through a hard fork with bitcoins (or any alts tbh).
hero member
Activity: 854
Merit: 1009
JAYCE DESIGNS - http://bit.ly/1tmgIwK
It seems to me that BU will take over Segwit. I dont know if it's good or bad.

But the inability of the devs to figure out a solution faster is leading to this. Plus, we are tired of huge fees.

So whatever can fix the fee problem, I will stand besides it.

If we dont fix the fee problem, we wont have any bitcoin to debate about, so better choose now, and risk bitcoin, than to lose bitcoin altogether over some other coin.
vip
Activity: 571
Merit: 504
I still <3 u Satoshi
Unlimited somehow caught up in pool support, but blocks mined with it are still way lower than SegWit. %'s seem to be really close, sometimes SegWit on top, sometimes Unlimited. This data mostly means nothing, at least up until now, but it's still interesting to follow...

It caught up because Ant Pool one of the largest mining pools, has begun transitioning to Bitcoin Unlimited.

In fact, there is a trend developing:

legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 1012
Unlimited somehow caught up in pool support, but blocks mined with it are still way lower than SegWit. %'s seem to be really close, sometimes SegWit on top, sometimes Unlimited. This data mostly means nothing, at least up until now, but it's still interesting to follow...
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2548
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

It might also be that miners support BU to the height to make sure that segwit doesn't get activated, but don't want BU either.  Miners make most profits with small blocks and no segwit: they sell block chain room.  That may, in the long run, become the most valuable commodity, not bitcoin's coins.


If BU gains control of Bitcoin, they could keep blocks small to reap more transaction fees.

No. The way mining works, they try to solve the hash puzzle and as soon as they solve the hash puzzle they publish the block and hope it isn't orphaned.

Every TX they include is additional money, it is not in their best interest to exclude transactions that pay a fee - that's money they are giving away to one of their competitors.

When blocks are not full it is because they solved the block before validating enough transactions to fill it.

There is a bounty in the mempool already thats worth to mine. The block size is a non linear optimization problem but there will be a finit optimal block size for every adoption rate.
full member
Activity: 182
Merit: 107
Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

It might also be that miners support BU to the height to make sure that segwit doesn't get activated, but don't want BU either.  Miners make most profits with small blocks and no segwit: they sell block chain room.  That may, in the long run, become the most valuable commodity, not bitcoin's coins.


If BU gains control of Bitcoin, they could keep blocks small to reap more transaction fees.

No. The way mining works, they try to solve the hash puzzle and as soon as they solve the hash puzzle they publish the block and hope it isn't orphaned.

Every TX they include is additional money, it is not in their best interest to exclude transactions that pay a fee - that's money they are giving away to one of their competitors.

When blocks are not full it is because they solved the block before validating enough transactions to fill it.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1001
To answer the OP,
-snip-

I appreciate the answer, now what exactly BU is offering that SegWit is not? I also don't understand how Gavin & Roger ver mostly are supporting such a thing as they are early adopters and probably have a net worth of millions of dollars, It's impossible to predict what's gonna happen and seeing them taking such a risk is definitely something phishy.

(1) SegWit is basically a reconfiguration of the block structure so that a new transaction
type (SegWit TX) can be implemented that creates more space with the 1MB cap. It changes
the "blocksize" into a "blockweight" by allowing 1MB of transaction data in the block and 3MB
of witness data outside of the block. The original purpose was to fix the malleability flaw but
was then seen as also adding "more space to a block". So it is an optimization, a fix, and an
"tx increase". This is not a long term scaling solution but helps facilitate second layers in a
more efficient and safer manner as well as maintains current level of decentralization and
unregulatability by governments.

BU is basically a final scaling solution. This proposal creates a new paradigm that bitcoin has
not experienced ever. It essentially give the miners the power to create any size block, as long
as their BU node network approves of that size cap. In theory, BU is based upon pure economic
market principals that believe that the market is rational and will balance the Bitcoin system to
an appropriate equilibrium. It uses a new Consensus mechanism call "Emergent Consensus".
It is intended to solve scaling so that it follows along the same lines as difficultly adjustments
and halving, as that they are automatic parts of the Bitcoin system.

(2) Gavin and Roger Ver only support the BU version because they believe Satoshi intended
On-Chain scaling, even at the cost of centralization and regulation of the network. Some think
those possibilities were intended by Satoshi, others think they may not happen, and others have
no opinion either way since they are purely interested in mass adoption and low fees only. Gavin
and Roger (and others) truly believe that they are right because they are following the "original
Satoshi plan" of an online currency. They believe that the "original Satoshi plan" has been
sidetracked and/or delayed.

(3) I don't know if Gavin has a lot of coins now, since he doesn't talk about such and he did give
alot away with his old faucet. But Roger Ver claims to be bitcoin wealthy and has shown so by
creating infrastructures and support system that support his Bitcoin beliefs. It is likely that both
believe that their coins would in theory be more valuable in time, as more people get their hands
on and start using bitcoin as a mass payment platform.


(4) If the hardfork occurs, your coins will be safe as long as you do not transact until it has
been shown to be safe. ...

There is one area that makes me wonder though in a hard-fork scenario what happens to the unconfirmed transactions.
Unless you delete the unconfirmed transactions and put the balance back into the forked wallets balance they would be stuck but that pretty seems complex if your not running your own client and using a service instead unless they keep rebroadcasting it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=35214.20

If your tx is in the mempool and unconfirmed at the time of a hardfork, my understanding is that
you will have "double coins". Whats important is whether your tx was including within a block, PRIOR
to the hardfork. That is all. So, if your tx gets 1 confirm, then the hardfork, the receiver now gets the
"double coins". You do not need to delete your pending tx unless you are worried about getting into a
block prior to the hardfork. Point is, if we have warning of the hardfork, you can wait till after the split,
but if it is unexpected, then what will be will be.


The above are my understandings.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
If Bitcoin forks into 2 chains.. it's over.. Sad

Why would that be the case ?  If it forks, we have two coins.  There are already more than 700 other coins out there.  What happens, of course, is that bitcoin then loses its "first mover advantage" and becomes "just another crypto currency".


If there is a hard fork the exchanges and online services have already spoken and said there will be both Bitcoin (BTC or XBT) and Bitcoin Unlimited (BTU or XBU) like they handled the Ethereum split.

Of course, it is extremely lucrative for exchanges, as everybody has "free coins" on the chain he doesn't like, and will go and exchange them: a lot of volume (essentially the whole bitcoin stash, twice !), and a lot of exchange fees.
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 263
The devil is in the detail.
Miners might collude and switch with that momentum.

It might also be that miners support BU to the height to make sure that segwit doesn't get activated, but don't want BU either.  Miners make most profits with small blocks and no segwit: they sell block chain room.  That may, in the long run, become the most valuable commodity, not bitcoin's coins.


If BU gains control of Bitcoin, they could keep blocks small to reap more transaction fees. This may all be a ploy to take development away from Core and stop Segwit and slow down sidechain development. No one really knows the agendas behind Core or BU. One thing is for sure, it aint to benefit Bitcoin.
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