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Topic: SegWit losing Bitcoin Unlimited winning -> Moon soon - page 5. (Read 13510 times)

copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!
Is BU still planning on forking if they don't get their way on a hard blocksize fix? Or are they working towards cooperation now?

(likely I should google this .in that the above remark likely blew blood vessels of members watching this thread as they laughed at the concept of 'comprimise')

but anyway ...a hint? maybe ....someplace? of some sanity on getting this whole issue of block size fixed?

cooperation.
comprimise!
sanity!?
Bahahahahahaha!

no.

i think 90% of users and just everyone in general would want some kind of cooperation, comprimise, and sanity.
but i could be wrong.
in anycase, it doesn't seem likely


So will BU fork or will we simply be in 'limbo' with neither side gaining any traction? IMHO bitcoin core is just fine with 1mb blocks for a long time yet.
Just discouraged....it seems no longer about the best code but power.

sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
Is BU still planning on forking if they don't get their way on a hard blocksize fix? Or are they working towards cooperation now?

(likely I should google this .in that the above remark likely blew blood vessels of members watching this thread as they laughed at the concept of 'comprimise')

but anyway ...a hint? maybe ....someplace? of some sanity on getting this whole issue of block size fixed?

cooperation.
comprimise!
sanity!?
Bahahahahahaha!

no.

i think 90% of users and just everyone in general would want some kind of cooperation, comprimise, and sanity.
but i could be wrong.
in anycase, it doesn't seem likely
copper member
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1465
Clueless!
Is BU still planning on forking if they don't get their way on a hard blocksize fix? Or are they working towards cooperation now?

(likely I should google this .in that the above remark likely blew blood vessels of members watching this thread as they laughed at the concept of 'comprimise')

but anyway ...a hint? maybe ....someplace? of some sanity on getting this whole issue of block size fixed?

sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
It is a clusterfuck. I bought ETH. LTC and XMR are other options.

ETH forking history is kinda worse though  Undecided

At least the attacker fork failed.

hard to know which one was the attacker fork  Shocked

right i was just ganna say "ehhhh ya attackers won out in the end" lol
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
It is a clusterfuck. I bought ETH. LTC and XMR are other options.

ETH forking history is kinda worse though  Undecided

At least the attacker fork failed.

hard to know which one was the attacker fork  Shocked
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
It is a clusterfuck. I bought ETH. LTC and XMR are other options.

ETH forking history is kinda worse though  Undecided

At least the attacker fork failed. And I am not investing in an heirloom to hold for posterity. The Bitcoin fork issue is here and now. I presume ETH is no danger this week nor next nor next month.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 1000
It is a clusterfuck. I bought ETH. LTC and XMR are other options.

ETH forking history is kinda worse though  Undecided
legendary
Activity: 3512
Merit: 4557
BU is bugged again it's dropping like a rock  Cheesy

sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
@Peter R apparently doesn't agree the token holders should have any choice in the matter and is apparently willing to attack us to force us to choose BTU:

"The decision will be made by the miners"


That's right Burt, but not nuanced enough

Incorrect.

If we refuse to buy BTU tokens which appear in their blocks, then their mining power is useless if they can't sell their mined tokens. We the token holders can choose to honor 1MB limit protocol.

However, given many users can't get their transactions into 1MB, I would say BTU might win. But I have no confidence in BTU's technical competence, thus I may not want their tokens.

The miners can split between those who honor only 1MB blocks and those who honor larger blocks. Thus the coinbase minted in the BTU protocol are not spendable (do not exist) on the BTC protocol blockchain.

But there is an issue of difficulty attacks:

What I suspect will happen is that we'll eventually get a block larger than 1 MB in the blockchain and Core will adapt their codebase to permit its users track the most-work chain.  In other words, there will likely be no split--just an anticlimactic network upgrade to larger blocks.  In such a case, who wins the bet?  Or is the bet only valid in the case where there is a persistent split?

It's absurd to think that there is not a single miner who will continue operating under the old network rules -- and that's all that it takes to create a persistent split.

It's seemingly this very lack of critical thought that leads to BU not being able to make even minor changes to the client without introducing bugs and vulnerabilities.

Alright: how about a small side bet for us little fish?  I bet you 1 BTC that--should the most-work blockchain include a single block larger than 1 MB--that no minority chain will make it beyond 2100 blocks (~2 weeks and the length of a difficulty adjustment) without either a difficulty reset or a change in the proof-of-work algorithm.

BTU appears to be ready to actually attack we the token holders. Fucking amazing. Very careless. Happy I hedged by selling some BTC.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Just sharing a comment from else where that I happenstanced on (bear in mind I am sleep deprived at the moment):

Fact is the Miners will not agree with segwit because it is designed to bankrupt them by moving almost all transactions offline.
This will bankrupt the miners and put them out of business.

This new PoW proposal, at least is admitting their goal is to put the ASICS guys out of work.
You can bet any hard fork with a new PoW is going to have Segwit already activated so LN can be used immediately.
(Funny Core is not afraid of this Hard Fork.)  Cheesy

Blockstream/segwit/LN supporters are dirty as can be, but at least they are consistently dirty.  Cheesy

Funny thing is , you also are putting the less than 30% mining pools that supported segwit out of business.
They have no choice now but to join BTU, or be discarded with the other asics miners by your new PoW Algo.

I figured that is why they won't prioritize malleability fix and why they need unlimited block sizes. But unlimited block sizes is a power vacuum that awards a mining cartel.

Also changing the PoW algorithm means someone might secretly have an ASIC advantage already, or someone might get one before everyone else and use it to attack the network.

I don't think the token holders will agree to a PoW algorithm change. Core will be defeating themselves.

Thus we have a standoff. Neither side can compromise because there is no compromise that works for both sides. Core wants massive scaling but with centralized LN hubs for their bankster friends. BTU wants limited scaling at what ever their mining cartel can handle on chain. Neither are decentralized.

It is a clusterfuck. I bought ETH. LTC and XMR are other options.

Edit: some proof:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.18267014
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
the war debate continues to escalate, since on one is an a position of absolute power. the power struggle is complex and very real due to bitcoin's decentralized nature.

meanwhile...
"Satoshi's design is fundamentally centralized"

lol.

My thought is the power struggle wouldn't exist if Bitcoin was decentralized.

I presume BU supporters think that their protocol will make the block size issue decentralized, but I think they are deceiving themselves. But I am not going to argue that point further to the extent of needing to write about Andrew's white paper and detailed discussions and tangents that would ensue.

And it doesn't matter any way whether I convince anyone.

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't want an undeserved appreciation. I haven't done anything worthy yet. My remarks were not intended to foster animosity.

I think i'm beginning to understand you.
I think that bitcoin is far from perfect.
but i also think that doesn't matter,
its good enough to rally behind.

we have convinced poeple to use bitcoin, we can not ask everyone to pile into some new crypto just because its "more decentralized"

I myself have toyed with SSL, i made an app that would send "coins" to 1 other app on the same localnetwork. my idea would be to do away with the miners completely. after that 1 weekend of coding, i got busy with trolling this form again  Cheesy

lets hope your better at finishing what you start then I
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
But BTC could be decentralized. Unfortunately satoshi/team released it flawed.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
the war debate continues to escalate, since on one is an a position of absolute power. the power struggle is complex and very real due to bitcoin's decentralized nature.

meanwhile...
"Satoshi's design is fundamentally centralized"

lol.

My thought is the power struggle wouldn't exist if Bitcoin was decentralized.

I presume BU supporters think that their protocol will make the block size issue decentralized, but I think they are deceiving themselves. But I am not going to argue that point further to the extent of needing to write about Andrew's white paper and detailed discussions and tangents that would ensue.

And it doesn't matter any way whether I convince anyone.

Thanks for the encouragement. I don't want an undeserved appreciation. I haven't done anything worthy yet. My remarks were not intended to foster animosity.
legendary
Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000
I intuitively expect Core masterfully justified the necessity of their takeover (as funded by the banksters). The influential leaders can influence the flock of followers.

But I don't have time to go argue that. But I bet you I could.  Wink

So now both BU and Core hate me. Perfect.  Tongue

Yes sounds perfect and convenient for someone who is trying to create a new altcoin to compete with Bitcoin. Obviously it would hurt your cause to say anything else. At the same time you need Bitcoin to stay big and healthy as it's the heart that pumps blood into all the other altcoins, including yours if your own idea ever comes off the ground. Which I have my doubts about because if I remember correctly you've been writing about creating something that's better than Bitcoin and any other altcoin for many years now. You are Anonymint are you not?

Quote
I also expect you have factions who are fighting to have the control over the centralization inherent in PoW. I expect there are powerful entities behind BU (and Core) that the useful idiots aren't aware of it.

I am not saying this because of being in love with conspiracy theory. It is because I know as a technical fact that PoW can't be decentralized. So I expect it to be factions fighting over the control.

And so now all you hate me. Sorry. Nevertheless I continue to think Bitcoin is important and must be protected for as long as we can. But I also accept the Invisible Hand is in control.

I don't hate you. I appreciate your writings although I am taking them with a grain of salt. I will agree that 100% decentralization is impossible, and right now mining is surely the opposite of decentralized. Core isn't perfect either, but at least it's way better than giving more power to that which is most centralized right now in Bitcoin, which is mining. Mike Hearn who left Core and Bitcoin earlier to work for the banks had some crazy ideas which would have been disastrous for fungibility and the censorship resistant properties of BTC, but his ideas did not become reality because other Core members and the community spoke against it. So I think we have sufficient defense mechanisms built in to ensure corrupt Core members do not screw up Bitcoin. Now we're going to see whether we also have sufficient defense mechanisms against the miners screwing up Bitcoin. I think we do.
legendary
Activity: 889
Merit: 1013
I am not saying this because of being in love with conspiracy theory. It is because I know as a technical fact that PoW can't be decentralized. So I expect it to be factions fighting over the control.

And so now all you hate me. Sorry. Nevertheless I continue to think Bitcoin is important and must be protected for as long as we can. But I also accept the Invisible Hand is in control.

No hate from me. Crypto needs bitcoin as the poster boy first mover, but I think it's going to get eaten by the financial establishment. Same goes for ethereum, by the looks of things. Good luck to anyone trying to make something robustly decentralised!
legendary
Activity: 1036
Merit: 1000
Not going into the ins and outs of the arguments but there is one certainty Bitcoin will hard fork shortly and what will happen to your stored bitcoins is anybodys guess.If we finish with two chains could one run zero protocol?could be a good time to integrate it
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
iamnotback
do let us know when your vaporware is ready to go, its always fascinating to learn about a new type of crypto
sr. member
Activity: 812
Merit: 250
A Blockchain Mobile Operator With Token Rewards
the war debate continues to escalate, since on one is an a position of absolute power. the power struggle is complex and very real due to bitcoin's decentralized nature.

meanwhile...
"Satoshi's design is fundamentally centralized"

lol.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
Problem is Core is a diverse bunch of people without leadership, that is kinda what it means to be decentralized. They code and review and test, but they don't have someone pulling the strings or someone who can speak for the entire team. I'm sure other options have been reviewed within their team, but SegWit was found to be the best option for the moment as the other options would all require a hard fork and that would take more time to properly prepare for. Also at this point I don't think we'll be able to find a wide consensus for SegWit + 2MB hard fork, which is what some seem to prefer here. As SegWit already provides 2MB blocks, would the extra 2MB really be worth the trouble to do a hard fork for? I believe Core would like to prepare a much better hard fork later on to increase the blocksize limit together with other things that are on the hard fork wishlist. But I don't know, maybe you should try asking them if you're curious? Like nicely? The answer may be more technical than my explanation above though.

I intuitively expect Core masterfully justified the necessity of their takeover (as funded by the banksters). The influential leaders can influence the flock of followers.

But I don't have time to go argue that. But I bet you I could.  Wink

So now both BU and Core hate me. Perfect.  Tongue

I also expect you have factions who are fighting to have the control over the centralization inherent in PoW. I expect there are powerful entities behind BU (and Core) that the useful idiots aren't aware of it.

I am not saying this because of being in love with conspiracy theory. It is because I know as a technical fact that PoW can't be decentralized. So I expect it to be factions fighting over the control.

And so now all you hate me. Sorry. Nevertheless I continue to think Bitcoin is important and must be protected for as long as we can. But I also accept the Invisible Hand is in control.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
This is very rushed because it is 4am, I haven't slept yet, and I have a serious health issue. Thus this may not be carefully worded nor well thought out...

But BU has a block limit. The difference here is that it is adjusted in an ongoing manner by a community process.

It is controlled by hashrate voting per your FAQ. Look I don't want to get into another long debate, but BU does not have a protocol limit on block size and the optimal mining strategies will come into play by secret selfish mining colluding hashrate (driven by economic opportunity cost of not colluding), which afaics your models don't fully take into account.

I realize there are skeptics that scoff at the emergent consensus idea, but there is science behind this concept.

Your researchers are ostensibly not well peer reviewed. I already I think demonstrated that upthread. I don't have time to peer review Andrew Stone's whitepaper also, because you are not paying me and from my perspective, I have more important work to do.

From my perspective, no. You are not going to convince me to abandon the scalable blocksize vision. With the caveat that I'm still thinking about your previous post.

I detect no deviation in the BU community at large from this principle either. Especially as -- after over a year of hard effort -- the tide seems to be turning in our direction.

Unfortunately Satoshi's design is fundamentally centralized and there is nothing you nor Core can do to fix that. That is why your idealistic vision has to be myopic, otherwise you'd give up. I gave up already and let Core have the centralization and started to work on a replacement. Analogous to I wish Trump would give up already on the dysfunctional protectionism and let China eat the dying Industrial Age.

It seems y'all think you are going to achieve some decentralization, but IMO you're deceiving yourself... but to paraphrase Satoshi's rebuff of Daniel Larimer, "I don't have time to convince you...".

Not trying to be condescending though and respectfully I apologize I can't put enough effort into this to engage on every last detail needed to make you depressed and give up.  Tongue

I tried to suggest a K.I.S.S. compromise as reasonable middle-of-the-road scaling interim measure for the next few years while we prepare a suitable replacement for Bitcoin. But my perspective (which drives my priorities for Bitcoin, see below) is way too far out-of-the-box, so I don't bother to try to convince anyone right now about vaporware. Just do what ever you want. I am hedged.

On the protocol side, bitcoin got just more decentralized with the fight between classic, Core and BU, because it wasn't and there was leadership, but there isn't much any more, which is good.

The ability of miners to 51% attack the protocol is not decentralization. To paraphase Benjamin Franklin in our context, those who would trade a huge loss of decentralization in the functioning of the protocol for a tiny morsel of decentralization attacking the protocol immutability, deserve neither decentralization nor protocol adaptability.

The root problem is that Satoshi's design isn't sufficiently adaptable without centralized control.



We recognize that malleability is something that is worthy of addressing. However, it is really a tertiary concern. For all the heat and light, I have yet to be shown that malleability has actually caused any systemic failure. Or significant value loss. The restriction of ~250,000 transactions per day, on the other hand, is a systemic problem that needs fixing RFN.

So yes, let us fix malleability. Once we are past this tps barrier. If my read of the BU community is correct, segwit (likely without the centrally-planned magic number signature discount) is a contender for this fix. There is a conversation comparing and contrasting with (e.g.) FlexTrans that first needs to happen though.

Lightning Networks isn't a priority, even if for the confidence building value of at least deluding ourselves into thinking instant transactions are coming soon?

Ethereum is preparing to launch a beta of a LN clone Raiden. Python code.  Undecided

(I don't have enough time to study that code)

I suspect LN will lead to centralization and bad things, but is there really any other option within the current design?

Of course there will be attrition, but we don't need many to double or quadruple our dev bandwidth.

My priority need from Bitcoin right now is for it to not blowup while the experimentation to find real solutions is ongoing in the altcoin arena. Ditto I guess for most of the SegWit Takeover Omnibus thing...(a simple blocksize increase would have been sufficient and Core is probably lying!)

For me you are treating Bitcoin like an altcoin. I say you go make your own BTU fork which is what you are really doing.

You can't just say you will gradually build up competency to be BTC. In that case, you are an altcoin.

IMHO, you really can't have it both ways. But you can try and find out the hard way.  Wink

Look. This narrative really ought to stop. Neither Ver nor Wu have any official relation to the BU community.

Reality is that as long as your have de facto spokesman that make your fork look like another RogerCoin (e.g. Dash), then many in the community are going to view the affiliation that way.

You can reprimand me, but IMO it doesn't rectify what I believe to be the confidence problem. Fooling n00bs via simplistic incorrect technical summaries is altcoin marketing strategy.

Sorry not trying to be a pita, so I'll try to STFU now.
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