Topic: Self Regulation Or Else ... Govt Intervention (Read 2995 times)

Good News/ Bad News: "Benjamin Lawsky, New York's financial services superintendent, said he will issue "BitLicenses" to companies dealing with bitcoins. That would mark the most significant step thus far in the United States to regulate the digital currency"

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/12/technology/bitcoin-regulation/index.html


on it's face this may look like good news, having the govt formally recognizing cryptocurrency in a significant enough way to codify it, but I see it as simply the first step to massive intervention, manipulation, and taxation (ie: Singapore)

How do you see it?

I've heard plenty of stories of people being ripped off- and I've already been ripped off through a Litecoin wallet service that disappeared and took everyones coin BUT that doesn't change my perspective- I still think Bitcoin and what crypto-currency offers is awesome- I just had to adapt and learn and not blame my incompetence or inexperience on the protocols themselves.

I know that the only way to be %100 safe is to die- life is dangerous if you want to be alive-

Having the possibility of change is dangerous but if the status quo Sux ass- the risk is worth it

Anyone or anything that promises total safety is really just offering slavery- enough of that- lets try something new.

You can achieve safety trough regulation.  However it impedes progress and leads to corruption. Eventually you pay for this safety dearly as you are robbed by the system every minute of every day.  If safety is your goal, I suggest studying slave and feudal societies. Most were relatively safe even by today’s standards.

I see it like this:
 
1. We will have to have govn't regulated exchanges(coinbase-im in the US) to convert fiat to BTC. This is the onramp and exit for fiat and BTC conversions. No way around this if we are exchanging for fiat.

2. We need exchanges in the Bitcoin network that are not influenced by anything but supply and demand. No founder...No owner...No govnt regulation. We have a group that ensures the integrity of the exchanges.

There should be several of these to make a true index. We trade BTC with other Alt-coins and vice versa, we sell our BTC for currency of choice to trade, but will have to convert to BTC to send to our regulated exchange to cash out in fiat.

just my opinion

that's exactly what this thread represents, the discussion seed that germinates and grows into some large action

One of the beauties of Bitcoin is that if you think there is a market for some type of more regulated exchange, exchanges with better guarantees, etc., there is nothing stopping you from starting one or a community of like minded individuals who want to follow the rules of the community.

Perhaps make some proposals and try and start something.

It sounds like you have not yet been the victim of any cryptocurrency wrong doing.  

It won't take long for you to hear of stories of how people got ripped off, from the computer virus that can empty your wallets, hackers that can empty wallets and accounts,  and use your wallet to receive funds stolen from other accounts, account snatching by bad employees of good exchanges, meetup associates, family members, or even law enforcement when your funds are at an exchanges embroiled in a money laundering scheme, not to mention the various pump and dump schemes, or the  exchanges losing money, delaying trades, stopping withdrawals, etc ...  

And just when you think you have it all figured out by eliminating the exchanges, only doing Peer to Peer deals, you plan to store the coins using a paper wallet with keys that were generated by a computer that never saw the internet; and you will only sell your coins after making sure that your money is safe in your bank.
So the scam artist answers your localbitcom ad saying that you are selling 1 btc for cash deposit to your bank account, he passes all of your security checks in terms of name address phone and even ID checks (a bit much just to buy btc, but that's your rule), the deposit of cash is made, you trust that the bank won't accept counterfeit currency, he  faxes you a copy of the receipt you see it in your balance and you verify it with your bank.   So you send the btc code to the customer.   The following day the bank calls you in a conference call with local police, turns out that the person that made the deposit to the account was a victim of a scam (could be one of very many out there) in which the customer is told to make a payment in that way.  After the victim doesn't receive his goods, service, or relief he goes to the bank and police with receipt in hand and demands his money back, the call to you is to determine if you know the guy and if you told him to deposit the funds to the account?  You have his name, address a different phone number, and copy of his id, so you say yes, but when you tell them it was about his btc purchase, they tell you thanks for your assistance hang up.  The next time you look at the account the funds are gone, the man got a refund, and the scam artist get your btc.

If you had a safe, insured, and self-regulated cryptocurrency industry it is highly unlikely that you would go though such elaborate measures to buy sell or secure your CC.

Notwithstanding, just because you are safe doesn't mean the system is safe.

Again you are speaking in a vacuum, cryptocurrency (CC) must be created before it could be used, the creation of CC beit btc or any other FIRST CC must be done with equipment originally involving fiat.    Even if computers grew on trees the trees would still need to be grown and picked, then the computers would need to be packed and shipped; sold to wholesalers, retailers then to consumer, but that only gets you the computer, now you need a place to put it (like a house or library), electricity, internet service; don't forget you also need people to program the computer, and to create all of the other programs to enable you to do what you want with that computer, are you getting it now?  Ok, now you created your first CC, now you need to create whole CC community, network, industry, then economy then at that point you will be at about where the USA was about 200 years ago when we thought that our brand new USD would enable us to never be involved with another British pound again.

Everyday I work with British pounds, although I never see a single one.   CC is simply another resource.

 

But sure, This is possible, it can be done, it would fix something.

But in the process it would screw very much of "other somethings". I would simply just not use such exchange. I would move my BTC trading to the unchecked, unregulated exchange. There are many people like me.

I wonder, Do you also believe that only people opposing constant camera surveillance in the streets are the ones wanting to commit crimes and that "honest law-abiding citizen has nothing to worry about"? Or that all people calling for freedom of speech are extremists who want to promote violence and "bad ideas"?

Until someone can make a lot of money by ignoring ethics, moral and other self regulatory stuff there always will be a bunch of ppl who will prefer the "shady" ways for the quick buck. We have to live with it. Actually we all living with shady guys around everyday. Why do you think the brokers at your bank are any better than let's say Fontas? They've shelled out a large part of our savings just a few years ago on a fully legal way, and they've got a nice bonus for doing so. Regulation will not change the mentality of these people.

Well, "they" wanted to "bring Bitcoin to the world" and now they have.

Thanks a lot, fools!

My $.02.

I think that "self regulation" is up to the individual- We should regulate ourselves- who/what we do business with- I don't want any person or organization/government to regulate what I do with my crypto- I regulate myself- WHY would anyone want regulation?

The current "regulated" master/slave world SUX

History has shown that the human factor brings corruption- I'd rather trust the math- Bitcoin is solid- people... not so much.

You know that you do not have to mine and do not have to buy BTC for fiat, do you? (There are other ways to get BTC, such as offering competitive goods and services to the ones already owning BTC.) You can secure CC by BTC payments, you can pay for infrastructure in BTC... Credit card is just another "way how to use fiat" such as bank accounts are representations of fiat.
BTC is not a representation of fiat, although it can be one of its many functions.  Same apply for other CC to some degree.

+1000!

Yippee ki-yay, motherfucker!

You sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  fuckin' got it!

Thank you for your insightful, honest and 100% correct post!

My $.02.

Crypto children (and man-children) are now getting the bitter medicine of reality

Funny how you fools run to lawyers (SFBS, WDC) and courts all the while moaning about the 'evils' of 'the man'.

Nation states and regulations of some type are the eventual end results of trying to form a stable, secure environment where decent and steady pursuit of prosperity is a possibilty.

How many times have people seen this crypto jesus wannabes bend over or book it and run at the first sign of real trouble, either to their health or profit?

It's time to stop acting like a bunch of petulant children and know that crypto cannot stand on its own without weathering numerous trials and errors out in the real world.

Or, please do keep deluding yourself thinking technology and your 'legit computer skills' will save you from being ripped off, shut down, stolen from, or otherwise taken advantage of. In the end, a semblance of mutual agreement, minor sacrifices and deviation from strict 'free' society (which isn't really free, just evasion from consequences of your mouth and actions) will  be necessary to ensure the future profits as well as present.


More professionalism, less bull shit.

You are a little late on this one.

So may of the halfwits wanted to bring crypto to the people and now they have and will reap what they have sown.

My $.02.

As a noob to all this bitcoin stuff i have made some observations if i am posting in the wrong place or need a phd, hey take it easy.

i dont think bitcoin was invented to be a new world order.
you had to mine coins to get them, then trade them kinda peer to peer.
As popularity rose natural greed took over.
much talk about bitcoin v fiat > to me both are the same.
the only difference is fiat can live without bitcoin.
much talk about the powers that be, hating bitcoin and see it as a mass rival, get real. I would love for something to pop up and give our leaders a kick up the ass but i don’t think it’s  bitcoin.
Much talk about bad things anonymous transactions, silk road, drug barons, corrupt officials, money laundering bah bah bah, peanuts to what govermants do.
Do you really think bitcoin could survive if a wealthy person let alone a government decided not so ?
If bitcoin was worth absolute shit would any of us be reading this post ? to me bitcoin is a great invention that has lived probably beyond the wildest dreams of its creator.
I have invested a small amount for the sole purpose of making some money just like the rest of us.
I hope the price will rocket but hey it might crash phew sounds just like fiat………………………..
As to self regulation its like this > get real

I know it's tempting to dismiss counter arguments by portraying the people making those arguments as stupid or lazy, but I assure you it's not doing your argument any favours.  If you want to change people's minds, you have to come up with something a little more substantial than ridicule.

The argument against you is that Bitcoin's current implementation is a pure transaction between two parties.  Any attempt to regulate or legislate automatically adds more parties to the mix and therefore breaks the "pure" system we currently enjoy.  It's neither lazy nor stupid to argue against the point you're trying to make.  It leads in a direction that the vast majority of us do not want to go.
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Oh you are right, however you are confusing gov reg with cryptocom self reg,  which does need more parties.  

The "two party" system is fantastically rare, which is why exchanges are so vital, don't forget intrinsic to the system is the necessity for mining which 99.999999999999999% of the time isn't done by either one of the parties in the CC trade transaction.  So again there is a need for more that the core two principals.  

The Heart and the Brain may get the most attention in the human body, but without the vital support organs the system will die, the kidneys can't decide to stop filtering on wednesdays because the blood is too dirty, the lungs can't decide to work on alternate days because capacity is light, and we all know the story about respecting the A-hole  

The point is for proper growth and development the cryptocurrency system it needs SELF regulation -- a way to properly get rid of the waste, before a third party has to remove it for us.

proof of BTC balances is easy. proof of BTC flows  not so easy, but can be done in the medium term. proof of balance is the lower bound (I own at least x BTC), BTC flow the upper bound (I own exactly x BTC, which requires 1:1 mapping of address to some kind of ID).

proof of fiat balances very hard, but possible in the long term, if you have systems which interact with banking networks directly or even change those networks (perhaps in 10-20 years). problem is that btc-fiat exchanges are the end nodes are attackable. the way to solve this would be a collective enterprise/cooperation/foundation, which uses all kinds of smart tactics to have end nodes to fiat. banks and rich people use these methods all the time.

it is conceivable that one can have a collective exchange, so that flows are totally transparent and fees are close to 0%, similar to bitcoin. but the current p2p exchanges are not the way to do it. its more complicated than that.

Why do you keep asking questions that have already been answered?