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Topic: Selfless love... (Read 4038 times)

legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 07:26:50 PM
#51
Yea he says production, but that is not where dopamine is produced. Maybe it is a translation problem. Anyway I can't find the actual data anywhere, just narratives describing it. This makes it pretty useless.

Thanks!  That's good to know.  I'll learn more about it.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 07:23:10 PM
#50
Yea he says production, but that is not where dopamine is produced. Maybe it is a translation problem. Anyway I can't find the actual data anywhere, just narratives describing it. This makes it pretty useless.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 06:57:01 PM
#49
Well, plenty of nonsense gets published in books. So I wouldn't take that as fact.

I agree completely.  However Christopher Langan has a tested IQ above 180 (he broke the ceiling on a normed IQ test administered by 20/20, the researcher was quoted to say that he's never seen anybody ever test so high in his 25 years of psychometric testing; it was published in a Popular Science magazine article called "Smartest Man in America").  And while Langan seems like kind of a dick, and while a high IQ means nothing in terms of fabricating information, my guess is that he didn't need to make up a region of the brain just to add an extra line to a 100 page book.

Right, but the research may be flawed to begin with, the uncertainty and alternative interpretations ignored, conclusions exaggerated, etc. This is not uncommon. In fact it is pretty much expected. Due to selection and publication bias, I say there is 80% chance any given published result is a false positive. This doesn't make it uninteresting, just inconclusive. I would like to look at the research he is referring to though. I am sure meditation does have some effect on brain function.

PET scans show the dopamine production region lit up like a lightbulb in meditation.

Are you sure this was not a dopamine receiving area? Dopamine production occurs in the VTA (ventral tegmental area) and I don't really see any PET studies of this during meditation, although I may have missed it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vefh5e05d7A
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 06:54:07 PM
#48
Well, plenty of nonsense gets published in books. So I wouldn't take that as fact.

I agree completely.  However Christopher Langan has a tested IQ above 180 (he broke the ceiling on a normed IQ test administered by 20/20, the researcher was quoted to say that he's never seen anybody ever test so high in his 25 years of psychometric testing; it was published in a Popular Science magazine article called "Smartest Man in America").  And while Langan seems like kind of a dick, and while a high IQ means nothing in terms of fabricating information, my guess is that he didn't need to make up a region of the brain just to add an extra line to a 100 page book.

Right, but the research may be flawed to begin with, the uncertainty and alternative interpretations ignored, conclusions exaggerated, etc. This is not uncommon. In fact it is pretty much expected. Due to selection and publication bias, I say there is 80% chance any given published result is a false positive. This doesn't make it uninteresting, just inconclusive. I would like to look at the research he is referring to though. I am sure meditation does have some effect on brain function.

PET scans show the dopamine production region lit up like a lightbulb in meditation.

Are you sure this was not a dopamine receiving area? Dopamine production occurs in the VTA (ventral tegmental area) and I don't really see any PET studies of this during meditation, although I may have missed it.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1004
March 26, 2012, 06:28:55 PM
#47
I do think there is an inherent compassion with human beings that causes as pain at other's suffering. I do think it does become over-rided by over factors (and in some cases that may be a good thing) but it is still there.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 06:26:12 PM
#46
Well, would you maintain this compassion even if someone became a murderer?

Yes, and I have.  I've worked with murderers at my job.

And would you say this type of love is an end in itself, inherent to oneself, or is it chosen as a means?

It's an end in itself.  It can be described as "chosen" if one has chosen/intended to systematically dismantle the ego to let love/compassion shine through.  But really, the love and compassion is always there.  It's kind of like the sun on a cloudy day....love/compassion is the sun and all the shit the ego identifies with are the clouds.  People naturally become more loving and compassionate when their ego is passive.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 06:23:28 PM
#45
Well, plenty of nonsense gets published in books. So I wouldn't take that as fact.

I agree completely.  However Christopher Langan has a tested IQ above 180 (he broke the ceiling on a normed IQ test administered by 20/20, the researcher was quoted to say that he's never seen anybody ever test so high in his 25 years of psychometric testing; it was published in a Popular Science magazine article called "Smartest Man in America").  And while Langan seems like kind of a dick, and while a high IQ means nothing in terms of fabricating information, my guess is that he didn't need to make up a region of the brain just to add an extra line to a 100 page book.

Right, but the research may be flawed to begin with, the uncertainty and alternative interpretations ignored, conclusions exaggerated, etc. This is not uncommon. In fact it is pretty much expected. Due to selection and publication bias, I say there is 80% chance any given published result is a false positive. This doesn't make it uninteresting, just inconclusive. I would like to look at the research he is referring to though. I am sure meditation does have some effect on brain function.

PET scans show the dopamine production region lit up like a lightbulb in meditation.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1004
March 26, 2012, 06:22:35 PM
#44
Well, would you maintain this compassion even if someone became a murderer?

Yes, and I have.  I've worked with murderers at my job.

And would you say this type of love is an end in itself, inherent to oneself, or is it chosen as a means?
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 06:21:11 PM
#43
Well, plenty of nonsense gets published in books. So I wouldn't take that as fact.

I agree completely.  However Christopher Langan has a tested IQ above 180 (he broke the ceiling on a normed IQ test administered by 20/20, the researcher was quoted to say that he's never seen anybody ever test so high in his 25 years of psychometric testing; it was published in a Popular Science magazine article called "Smartest Man in America").  And while Langan seems like kind of a dick, and while a high IQ means nothing in terms of fabricating information, my guess is that he didn't need to make up a region of the brain just to add an extra line to a 100 page book.

Right, but the research may be flawed to begin with, the uncertainty and alternative interpretations ignored, conclusions exaggerated, etc. This is not uncommon. In fact it is pretty much expected. Due to selection and publication bias, I say there is 80% chance any given published result is a false positive. This doesn't make it uninteresting, just inconclusive. I would like to look at the research he is referring to though. I am sure meditation does have some effect on brain function.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 06:14:21 PM
#42
Well, would you maintain this compassion even if someone became a murderer?

Yes, and I have.  I've worked with murderers at my job.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 06:13:52 PM
#41
Well, plenty of nonsense gets published in books. So I wouldn't take that as fact.

I agree completely.  However Christopher Langan has a tested IQ above 180 (he broke the ceiling on a normed IQ test administered by 20/20, the researcher was quoted to say that he's never seen anybody ever test so high in his 25 years of psychometric testing; it was published in a Popular Science magazine article called "Smartest Man in America").  And while Langan seems like kind of a dick, and while a high IQ means nothing in terms of fabricating information, my guess is that he didn't need to make up a region of the brain just to add an extra line to a 100 page book.
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1004
March 26, 2012, 06:12:44 PM
#40
Well, would you maintain this compassion even if someone became a murderer?
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 06:09:50 PM
#39
I do not see the need for another thread.

Love is a longing for, no?

No, that's obsession, lust, loneliness, etc.

Are you not supposed to feel lonely if gone without a person you love for some time?

Loneliness and love are not the same.

Only your ego makes you feel lonely when a person you love is gone for some time.

With no ego involved (the ego can be systematically dismantled, just as it has been systematically constructed throughout the course of your life), there is no requirement to feel lonely when a person you love is gone for a long time.

I didn't say love and loneliness were the same but that love can cause loneliness. So is love, according to you, the feeling that one should care for another? Does that mean it is compassion?

Compassion, yes, that's a good word for it.  It's unconditional compassion.  Why love a person who does cruel things to you?  Because wisdom can tell you that a person who does cruel things only does cruel things because they are not happy inside, or because they are ignorant, etc., and so you can begin to feel compassion for the poor state they are in.  You want them to become better, to become happier, and then they will not do such cruel things.  It is no wonder why happier people have more patience with others, are more tolerant of others, and are more willing to sacrifice their time or possessions to those who need them.

Love only causes loneliness when the ego gets involved.  The ego is what identifies with things.  The ego tells us, "Hey, I invested MY time and MY feelings and MY effort into this relationship, and now the object of my investment is gone.  NO!!!!!!!!"  But, we can systematically train the ego to sit the fuck down  Grin
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 06:05:31 PM
#38
Well, plenty of nonsense gets published in books. So I wouldn't take that as fact.
legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 06:03:05 PM
#37

Quote
There is a region of the brain that allows an individual to distinguish between their self and their environment;  in meditation, activity in this region of the brain ceases such that from the meditator's perspective, he literally becomes one with his environment.
What part of the brain is this?

Honestly, I don't know.  I have a book called "The Art of Knowing" by Christopher Langan and he mentions it in almost the same way I mentioned it (except I believe he said it was located in the rear/top part of the brain).  Most of his writings are full of a bunch of words I've never even heard of before, but this book was specifically intended for the very casual and average reader.  My guess is that he didn't include the name not because he didn't know it, but because it was simply one of many 'scientific jargon' words that was omitted for the sake of an easy read.  I've actually wanted to know this myself, but I didn't really question it as it already aligned with what I have directly experienced (and direct experience is the purest form of knowledge).
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1004
March 26, 2012, 06:02:33 PM
#36
I do not see the need for another thread.

Love is a longing for, no?

No, that's obsession, lust, loneliness, etc.

Are you not supposed to feel lonely if gone without a person you love for some time?

Loneliness and love are not the same.

Only your ego makes you feel lonely when a person you love is gone for some time.

With no ego involved (the ego can be systematically dismantled, just as it has been systematically constructed throughout the course of your life), there is no requirement to feel lonely when a person you love is gone for a long time.

I didn't say love and loneliness were the same but that love can cause loneliness. So is love, according to you, the feeling that one should care for another? Does that mean it is compassion?
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
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March 26, 2012, 05:57:17 PM
#35
Love is a longing for, no?

No, that's obsession, lust, loneliness, etc.

Are you not supposed to feel lonely if gone without a person you love for some time?

Let's talk about this in a different, non-Atlas thread so actual critical discussions can be had.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/is-love-real-74192


legendary
Activity: 1834
Merit: 1020
March 26, 2012, 05:57:00 PM
#34
Love is a longing for, no?

No, that's obsession, lust, loneliness, etc.

Are you not supposed to feel lonely if gone without a person you love for some time?

Loneliness and love are not the same.

Only your ego makes you feel lonely when a person you love is gone for some time.

With no ego involved (the ego can be systematically dismantled, just as it has been systematically constructed throughout the course of your life), there is no requirement to feel lonely when a person you love is gone for a long time.
hero member
Activity: 728
Merit: 500
March 26, 2012, 05:56:07 PM
#33
So is returning selfish love selfless and thus a virtue?

Again, this is retarded. Love involves yourself no matter what.

The only reason love would have to involve yourself is if it were perception based--- which it is-- proving that love doesn't exist.

I agree, love is (usually used as) just a nice sounding word for being willing to put up with extra BS from people since you are used to them. It is an excuse for what, at first glance, appears to be irrational behavior. On the whole it averages out to your genetic advantage though.

I personally prefer conditional love. I'd like to be valued for how I behave, what value I bring others, etc rather than because someone is one with their environment or addicted to me.

Quote
There is a region of the brain that allows an individual to distinguish between their self and their environment;  in meditation, activity in this region of the brain ceases such that from the meditator's perspective, he literally becomes one with his environment.
What part of the brain is this?
legendary
Activity: 1190
Merit: 1004
March 26, 2012, 05:52:55 PM
#32
Love is a longing for, no?

No, that's obsession, lust, loneliness, etc.

Are you not supposed to feel lonely if gone without a person you love for some time?
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