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Topic: Seriously, though, how would a libertarian society address global warming? - page 24. (Read 30176 times)

newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
We've sustained unsustainable growth for centuries simply by changing the way we grow as needed and on schedule.
I think it might be accurate to say it like this:

We've sustained unsustainable growth for centuries simply by changing the way we grow as needed, but behind schedule, and at the expense of living on a world with ever diminishing resources.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
I don't condone initiatory violence to solve problems. If you damage my property or it's clear that your actions will damage my property, I can stop you but I can't do anything until there is a clear and present danger. I don't have to wait for you to shoot me, just until you threaten me. It can be proactive but not to the point where there's never a threat in the first place. There has to be a threat before it's legitimate to respond in kind.

It doesn't matter if not using initiatory violence "doesn't work". Let justice be done though the heavens fall. Even if the world will implode unless we initiate violence against a minority of people, my only response will be "it had to end sometime". In the long run, we're all dead. Let's live our lives nobly until then.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
...  and a realization that growth cannot be sustained.

Unfortunately, nations competing with each other forces growth for the purposes of funding national security.
You're wrong, the growth is good and absolutely can be sustained. The view that the growth is unsustainable comes from the mistaken assumption that sustaining something means continuing to go in the precise direction. This is not so. Sustaining growth means continuing to grow. It's like you look at a curving highway and think "there's no way you can keep going to San Diego, you'd run off the road". No, you turn with it.

We've sustained unsustainable growth for centuries simply by changing the way we grow as needed and on schedule.
hero member
Activity: 950
Merit: 1001
Although hurting the environment is bad PR and all that, most people only pretend to care about the environment. There is a "libertarianism and externalities" thread that kinda goes on about this: the consensus here appears to be "we kinda suck at controlling externalities, but so do governments".

This is pretty weak. At a minimum, tradable emissions permits are a very capitalist solution, and there is already an international framework (Kyoto accord). Yes, it's not working perfectly and never will... But I have a lot more confidence in long-term diplomatic pressure than planetwide cooperation on a prisoner's dilemma.

I'm sure this will attract a witty insult to my intelligence for supporting an already floundering, globally statist solution.  Grin  I eagerly await a free market solution that actually works better, if anyone has heard of one that I haven't seen... It should be theoretically possible.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 103
Your proposals encourage a reactive rather than proactive method. However, the reactive method only reacts when excessive irreversible damage has been done. Already, irreversible damage has been done. There is a finely nuanced understanding that is required by all entities involved, and servicing the bottom line encourages glossing over those finer nuances. Your arguments are an example of selectively choosing to ignore those finer nuances.

There isn't an economic school of thought on earth that doesn't agree with this statement.  It's only those hard liner libertarians that think a free market will magically be sufficiently proactive.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
The problem is that it's owned by governments and not private citizens. If I owned the Arctic Refuge and you tried to drill into it then I'd stop you, with force if necessary. That's why I said it needs to be claimed by a person.
Doug Tompkins only has so much money. We're still in a crisis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Tompkins
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
It's often too late by then. Damage has already occurred.
I agree. But the political process is even slower and even less reliable. There are no perfect solutions. There may not even be any really good ones.
I agree with you. But I believe until some process that works is in place, regulation is very important, and we're not stringent enough, because most people think along the lines of: "Drill, baby, Drill!" That's a sign that education is lacking. What is needed is an understanding that the trajectory in place is not leading in the right direction. We must seek alternatives. Education and technology are paramount, and a realization that growth cannot be sustained.

Unfortunately, nations competing with each other forces growth for the purposes of funding national security.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
I will attempt to be civil. I do wish you to come around to my viewpoint. Accept my apology.

Thanks. All you have to do is attack the arguments and not me personally. I may be naive, brainwashed or whatever but I'm not going to just take your word for it. You'll have to convince me. I'm also sympathetic to your cause. However, I refuse to condone any solution to the problem that involves initiatory violence against other people or their property.

The Arctic Refuge is claimed as an area that is supposed to be untouched. And the same goes for Patagonia! That's the whole point. It's the slippery slope in action.

The problem is that it's owned by governments and not private citizens. If I owned the Arctic Refuge and you tried to drill into it then I'd stop you, with force if necessary. That's why I said it needs to be claimed by a person or group of people.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
It's often too late by then. Damage has already occurred.
I agree. But the political process is even slower and even less reliable. There are no perfect solutions. There may not even be any really good ones.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Your insults are only showing how hysterical you are. I'm now ignoring you. Congratulations on completely alienating someone that could have been persuaded to your viewpoint had you not been so belligerent. You're really not helping your cause.
I will attempt to be civil. I do wish you to come around to my viewpoint. Accept my apology.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Go claim sections of the Arctic Refuge or Patagonia and make it an ecological preserve. Problem solved. It sounds like you're saying that you want the world to be untouched. That's unreasonable. You need to come up with some kind of plan whereby we preserve as much biodiversity as possible, in case we might need it, without bringing the rest of the world to a grinding halt.
The Arctic Refuge is claimed as an area that is supposed to be untouched. And the same goes for Patagonia! That's the whole point. It's the slippery slope in action.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
Businesses that believe replanting clear cut forests is a substitute for preexisting old growth forests are engaging in the destruction of a resource that is not being replenished, as replanted clear cut sections are not the same as old growth forests.

I didn't claim they were. My point was, if you replant trees, you don't have to keep cutting more and more old growth. At some point you can go back and cut down the new growth. The problem with clear cutting is that it's unsustainable.

What's destroyed, and what is being destroyed could be what we need in the future. And when it is destroyed, then we start looking to that which is not destroyed. For example, the Arctic Refuge or Patagonia. It doesn't stop.

Go claim sections of the Arctic Refuge or Patagonia and make it an ecological preserve. Problem solved. It sounds like you're saying that you want the world to be untouched. That's unreasonable. You need to come up with some kind of plan whereby we preserve as much biodiversity as possible, in case we might need it, without bringing the rest of the world to a grinding halt.

Your arguments are only showing your naivete.

Your insults are only showing how hysterical you are. I'm now ignoring you. Congratulations on completely alienating someone that could have been persuaded to your viewpoint had you not been so belligerent. You're really not helping your cause.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
bitcoin2cash:

Your arguments are only showing your naivete. There is a balance here, and the size of human impact has reached a point where it cannot be allowed to continue at its current rate. It's been going on for a long time, and the pace is increasing. Your proposed methods will not decrease this pace. They will only increase it.

Your proposals encourage a reactive rather than proactive method. However, the reactive method only reacts when excessive irreversible damage has been done. Already, irreversible damage has been done. There is a finely nuanced understanding that is required by all entities involved, and servicing the bottom line encourages glossing over those finer nuances. Your arguments are an example of selectively choosing to ignore those finer nuances.

And that is the heart of it right there: when servicing the bottom line, one can always choose to be ignorant about the finer details if it will allow greater profitability.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Which business is going to last longer, one that clear cuts until it runs out of a trees or one that cuts down trees and plants new ones? The business that plans for the future will be around longer. It's better for the long term bottom line to engage in sustainable practices.
Businesses that believe replanting clear cut forests is a substitute for preexisting old growth forests are engaging in the destruction of a resource that is not being replenished, as replanted clear cut sections are not the same as old growth forests. Thus, by your way of thinking, the businesses either don't realize the destruction they are causing, or do it willfully.  

As for biodiversity, how much rain forest do we need? Just mark off a section of it and claim it has an ecological preserve. Problem solved. I'm sure plenty of medical companies will also donate a little to this because who knows, some species of bug may cure cancer someday.
What's destroyed, and what is being destroyed could be what we need in the future. And when it is destroyed, then we start looking to that which is not destroyed. For example, the Arctic Refuge or Patagonia. It doesn't stop.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
I think this is a more accurate analogy: Let's say you're wearing cement shoes in a tank that drains out 6 gallons per minute and normally has 3 gallons a minute flowing in. Four people have also come along and start throwing in 1 gallon per minute each. Is any one of them legally liable for killing you?

They will each argue that their 1 gallon per minute was well within the safe level of contribution that the tank would accept without causing any danger to its inhabitants.


The liability analysis gets even more muddled when you multiply all the numbers by several thousand.

Each of them are legally liable for murder.
sr. member
Activity: 504
Merit: 252
Elder Crypto God
This type of thinking is so fallacious, it is absurd.

Just put forth your argument. There's no need to make this personal. That kind of comment adds absolutely nothing to the discussion and only serves to make it less civil.

Each business, an entity in its own right, and often small, focuses on serving its bottom line, and will always try and get away with what it can and assume that its competitors can and will do the good thing. Is there money to be made by the timber industry in the Amazon basin? I think so. Are entities exploiting that? I think so. Is it destroying biodiversity as a result? I think so. Can we get that resource back? No.

Which business is going to last longer, one that clear cuts until it runs out of a trees or one that cuts down trees and plants new ones? The business that plans for the future will be around longer. It's better for the long term bottom line to engage in sustainable practices.

As for biodiversity, how much rain forest do we need? Just mark off a section of it and claim it has an ecological preserve. Problem solved. I'm sure plenty of medical companies will also donate a little to this because who knows, some species of bug may cure cancer someday.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Do corporations want to drill in the Arctic Refuge? Yes, they do. Will they if allowed to? Yes! What if there were no governing regulations with regard to that? They'd already be there in large numbers.

Do the Chileans want to build a large hydroelectric system in Patagonia? Some entities do. It's all about the bottom line. Destroy and damage that which you can't get back, to service the bottom line.

It's fallacious thinking that will leave us with nothing in the end. It's the classic slippery slope. The first real example of it was the mass megafauna extinctions in Europe and North America around 13,000 years ago. And it's been going on since then.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 502
There is a safe (and necessary) level of C02 in the Earth's atmosphere. Suing an individual power plant will result in them saying, accurately, that their output alone does not bring the Earth's atmospheric C02 levels above the safe level.

Let's say that you're standing inside of an empty tank that goes up over your head with your feet strapped to the bottom. Some guy dumps in a 5 gallon bucket of water. It splashes around your feet, no harm done.

Now let's say you're up to your neck in water in that same tank. Some guy dumps in a 5 gallon bucket of water and you drown. Is it a defense for him to say that his bucket of water alone wouldn't have killed you if the tank was empty?

I think this is a more accurate analogy: Let's say you're wearing cement shoes in a tank that drains out 6 gallons per minute and normally has 3 gallons a minute flowing in. Four people have also come along and start throwing in 1 gallon per minute each. Is any one of them legally liable for killing you?

They will each argue that their 1 gallon per minute was well within the safe level of contribution that the tank would accept without causing any danger to its inhabitants.


The liability analysis gets even more muddled when you multiply all the numbers by several thousand.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
The bottom line is, as long as people value pristine land, clean air and fresh water, there will be a cost associated with spoiling them. Businesses that can avoid these costs will increases their profits, expand and eventually drive the less green companies out of business. The market can handle pollution and has an incentive to do so, as long as we respective property rights and allow victims of pollution to recoup damages from polluters.

This type of thinking is so fallacious, it is absurd. Each business, an entity in its own right, and often small, focuses on serving its bottom line, and will always try and get away with what it can and assume that its competitors can and will do the good thing.

Is there money to be made by the timber industry in the Amazon basin? I think so. Are entities exploiting that? I think so. Is it destroying biodiversity as a result? I think so. Can we get that resource back? No.

As Paul R. Ehrlich says:

"The scale of the human socio-economic-political complex system is so large that it seriously interferes with the biospheric complex system upon which it is wholly dependant, and cultural evolution has been too slow to deal effectively with the resulting crisis."
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Logical individuals, even if they highly value a low global C02 level, will choose the cheap and dirty power source because it has a net cost benefit for themselves with no measurable pollution increase for their individual decision.
They will do that until enough individuals enter into a mutually-binding agreement to all switch to a clean power source as soon as they reach a critical mass of people such that the individual benefit from switching exceeds the individual cost. They may even refuse to do business with people who refuse to enter into such agreements.
It's often too late by then. Damage has already occurred.
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