Topic: Shakaru Class Action - page 2. (Read 9020 times)

I too think this is a fairly hopeless exercise, except for the principle of it. But it'll be an expensive principle to pursue, and I doubt most people will want to.

I'd prefer it if the Uncle Vinny suggestions were left off the thread, though. I know people are joking, but suggestions of physical violence (or harassment) just lower the level of discussion, and give detractors more shit to be taken out of context about the "lawless" bitcoin community.

The uncle Vin option would be a lot cheaper, while providing some level of satisfaction, could we get him (uncle vin) to take a few pics?

*Hear

Here here!!   


Edit: lol

or

Hear hear!!

Loup why inject facts into a very good rant.

My take.  Creditors likely are getting next to nothing anyways.  Getting lawyers involved all but guarantees creditors will get less than nothing (pay out more in lawyer fees than is ever recovered).  Can't get blood from a stone folks.   Granted I haven't followed this "saga" closely but my understanding is Shakaru has no stable high income employment, no assets, no real estate, is behind on rent, lives (or lived) in a self described slum, etc.

I mean where do you think these tens of thousands of dollars are going to come from?  Forced human organ donation?

With that in mind, who's up for paying uncle Vin to go work him over? Could even make it a share on GLBSE

No dog in this fight, but a small suggestion for the combatants, if I may? Invest the time to study up on a class action, the chances of this issue being certified as a class are slim and none, and slim is on his way out of town. You don't need to convince a tech-aware lawyer friend, you need to compel a Judge to certify the class. Which isn't going to happen. And even if you do, all that will ever end up happening, years or decades from now, is that you may get a judgement against shakuru that will give the lion's share of any settlement to the lawyers involved. And if just one creditor chooses to insert their own lawyer into the process, they double their take, and your lawyer gets half, which makes this precedent-setting opportunity that much less palatable. Especially given that the prime candidate for Lead Plaintiff in the Class is someone who is not seeing eye to eye with the proposal right now.

Then, settlement in hand, you march down to the Sheriff and demand satisfaction... what are you going to get? Some used cables and power supplies? Shakuru appears to have essentially nothing left. In fact for under a thousand bucks he could own the majority of the debt and kill the Class by himself without lifting a finger, just objecting to the certification. And what is your case predicated upon? Ah, yes, bitcoins! A non-tangible asset, with no physical measure of value other than a perceived value based on anonymous transactions and "hashing". Is there a contract to enforce? Is there something that a judge could look at, or a jury could consider? The rent issue probably has merit, but won't get you a class action going, in California $7,000 worth of debt is actually a small claims court action. And small claims won't let you aggregate these claims into a class.

Sucks to be ripped off, especially by someone you consider a friend. Even worse when that friend violated the trust and the friendship of a community like this one. But other than branding the scammer with a richly deserved scammer tag, there is essentially nothing that can be done in a court of law to compel re-payment of debt of this type. Having your Uncle Vinny pay him a visit and suggesting a re-payment schedule that will keep all limbs intact and functioning? Maybe. Asking the courts of California to toss this miscreant into debtors prison and seize his car, strip him naked and set him at hard labor? Unfortunately not going to happen.

   Bitcoin is an alt currency/community experiment. It is the Wild Wild West of a community currency without boarders. There are the traditional ways of dealing with these imperfections and there will be new ways of dealing with them. If the BitCoin is considered just a currency pegged to a traditional fiat, then relying on the traditional systems will work (and not work).

Freeway,

   There is a reason Business usually pays out 10 - 25 K with minimal interrogatories. Because it is cheaper to pay the litigant than it is your lawyer. If you want a class action against shakaru and evidence including linking the chain transactions, I am sure someone will take you up on it. Or try at least. But, it will cost you a fortune.

This is a new world or old world in finance. The community pretty much relies on letters in a nick, post counts, past deals with other pseudo anonymous nicks, and emailed proof of identity. To me shakaru is just letters in a nick name on a internet forum.

  So, how does one deal with that with any confidence? I would suggest making use of the gpg nicknames to at least ensure that you are dealing with the same person to a reasonable standard. Then that begs to question, why would anyone lend money (BTC) to nothing except a nick name?  Well the reasonable wouldn't. However, if the bar to entry in these transactions is significant, it is entirely possible that it could work. i.e. A credit system that starts at 0 and with time and good history opens up a more traditional system of loaning. However, emphasis must be put on this reputation so it is so hard to gain that one fears losing it. The essentially must become an alter ego to the person that the person who owns it respects and fears losing its reputation. In essence, you are dealing with just the and not the alter ego person.

 Of course, there is a meeting of these two spheres because of the need for traditional fiat currencies. At a point, these spheres must touch so there is a mixture of real world systems and virtual systems. The intersection of these spheres is sometimes hard to define. vampire is in one sphere and uses traditional systems for arguments. He seems to me wouldn't invest in shakaru; he would invest in shakaru's real company. This can be done by looking up companies on the various Secretary of State office in our country and their counter parts in other countries. GLBSE and certain threads here are investing in the virtual sphere, relying on and promises.

   I am for the creation of the new system. It opens up a world of business denied to millions of people. Why should only the big and powerful get to take advantage of 'loop' holes? If GE and big companies are allowed to do Double Irish and Dutch Sandwiches, why shouldn't you be able to do so also? Typically governments being lobbied by big companies will put pressure on up and coming companies to prevent them from taking a market share. See this is where something went wrong. Build a better 'mouse trap' today and you either get sued, fined, taken over, or imprisoned. Or, you cave to venture capitalist and sell out. Small Businesses here are in a decline and new creation is down. This isn't because that people don't want to try. It is because they fear trying.

  Freeway, you and others have become a failed leg in this experiment. Good will come out of it, hopefully. I've seen the tendency to fall back on traditional systems. But, IMO, you yourself know this won't work. Why?, because if you were going to sue IRL, you wouldn't be here pleading for help. Your lawyer, might be.

In my opinion, this can be turned into something good. A credit system that has a high bar for entry and relies on a system of gpg identity can be formed. Others are working on a credit system and I am dabbling in one. My system is harsh tho. One failure to pay will significantly hurt the . This will be an affront to traditional methods of finance and governments. Expect, resistance from 'them.'  They all want to know 'who' and 'where', but in reality it doesn't matter as long as the bills get paid.  When I take $5 out of my bank, I don't tell the teller that I am going to buy a 'Big Mac.'  

I am sorry for yours and others loss here and that I have co-opted your thread for my rant but something here tweaked an interest.

I am however, surprised that shakaru hasn't received some type of 'Tag', maybe not the 'Scammer Tag' but maybe a Defaulter Tag, or something appropriate.

Good Luck,

tl;de      hmm.. does 'to long';'didn't edit' exist?

Sounds like you have a lot of research ahead of you. Unfortunately, it is extremely complicated.

To get you started: There is only one blockchain, and it contains a single ledger of all transactions. You can explore it here: http://blockchain.info/ or here: http://blockexplorer.com/

Which is why I did state earlier we are doing a lot of research before we do anything.  I know that Paypal and interstate transfer are included.  What we don't understand is how to link btc chains work and how to link them.

Well, if you had read the thread, you'd see where people listed the addresses they sent to and the address to which they received or were supposed to have received.  Not all of it was done via btc however, some was via Paypal.  Has your lawyer researched the dispute resolution clauses in Paypal's terms of service? What about interstate debts?  I think you're going to find that including the bitcoin piece of this in your legal case is going to drastically complicate things.  Its already been established that payb.tc is owed the largest sum and at the moment he doesn't seem interested to go along with your stuff.

What I am actually interested in trying to find would be the block chains showing where the money went once it was in  Andrews hands.  We know for a fact it was sent to him.  We know some was sent back to the original investors.  But if we can show the majority was withdrawn directly by him, or used by him online for misc purchases un-related to his op, we have a case where a legal money judgement can be obtained along with wage orders, in case he continues to give promises with no results.

No such requirement in the US once BK is discharged.  Of course investors should look at inability to pay debts (BK or not BK) as a warning sign.  Actually I haven't heard of any such requirement in any country so while it may exist it isn't very common.  The whole point of BK (generally speaking) is to write off debt which can't be recovered and allow the entity/individual to move forward.

FTR, I am with Payb.tc on this one. A law suit is a absolute last resort for a dead beat who isn't willing to/is trying to run away from a responsibility. For some reason I have serious doubts a court of law in the US is going to do a damn thing about contracts sold on a public forum for what they look at as monopoly money.
So far Andrew has paid in and shows signs that he wants to work this out. There are a lot of upset people that Andrew owes money to, but it's money people. It comes, it goes... Remember, $20,000 doesn't just appear from one person, most people take 15 years to pay that off with interest.

Andrew- Thanks for not running away from this, so far
Freeway- Take a breather, for now
Bitsinmyhead- Flies on walls don't talk, they buzz

You should do research about incorporation. Except protection of personal assets, there are a lot more benefits. Here is an example:


I founded a company XYZ, I invested into that company $10000 of my personal funds. The company failed, now I can write off $10000 of my personal income.
Also taxation is lower for companies, it's an another benefit.


If I don't use all the benefits that US laws system provides, someone else would and gained an edge over me :-) Also bitcoin itself is a risky business, a layer of legal protection would be beneficial for everyone. If US gov decides to go after bitcoiners, they would have to deal with my company first :-)

Not 10 years, it's 0 years. 10 years stays on his credit report.

You only do business with private individuals?

Great information, I will be sure never to do business with you since it seems you prefer solutions that easily removes all blame since the law allows you to.

Dont you believe in personal responsibility? Sad.

Wether he files or not I couldnt care about, the problem is that even in debt he is again GLBSE listing a new project.

Im fairly certain in most countries if not all if you are liquidated/filing for bankruptcy, you cant go and start another potential debt based(investors money) company right of the bat, generally you must remain debt free for a couple of years and in our country that is 10years!

Indeed. Most people probably don't realize what it can do for you and how (relatively) easy it is.