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Topic: Should Giga be tagged as a scammer? - page 6. (Read 17432 times)

vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
December 04, 2012, 10:17:54 PM
The funny part is he is claiming more clowns are lining up to buy him mining equipment!

If I didn't offer Teramining, people would say that I am going back on what I promised. Now that I'm putting the contract together, you make the comment quoted above.

Thanks for showing just how unenviable the position i'm in is.
SAC
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
December 04, 2012, 10:06:52 PM
but I seriously wonder how you feel deep down knowing you are sitting on a pile of hardware other people bought for you.   


He feels great that is what this whole thing was designed for you clowns paying for his hardware or did you think paying at least twice what it was worth was for your benefit.

The funny part is he is claiming more clowns are lining up to buy him mining equipment!

Yep pathetic no wonder these people get scammed.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
December 04, 2012, 09:49:16 PM
but I seriously wonder how you feel deep down knowing you are sitting on a pile of hardware other people bought for you.   


He feels great that is what this whole thing was designed for you clowns paying for his hardware or did you think paying at least twice what it was worth was for your benefit.

The funny part is he is claiming more clowns are lining up to buy him mining equipment!
SAC
sr. member
Activity: 322
Merit: 250
December 04, 2012, 09:45:00 PM
but I seriously wonder how you feel deep down knowing you are sitting on a pile of hardware other people bought for you.   


He feels great that is what this whole thing was designed for you clowns paying for his hardware or did you think paying at least twice what it was worth was for your benefit.
member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
...
December 04, 2012, 09:36:10 PM
Is there some way you could not pay me interest so it doesn't trigger whatever federal code you are trudging up.  I gave you money, why can't you just give it back?  It's akin to me dropping my wallet it IRL, would you give it back to me if you found it?

I should not have to give out my personal info to every asset issuer from GLBSE, they didn't do anything like that for me when I gave it to them.  If I were you, I would feel like a thief.  I understand you got a lawyer to figure out what you should do, but I seriously wonder how you feel deep down knowing you are sitting on a pile of hardware other people bought for you.   
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
December 04, 2012, 07:59:52 PM
Giga, if Nefario released a "better" list as he JoelKatz describes would you still force us to give you all of our personal information? 

Also, since you seem intimately familiar with GLBSEs state, what exactly happened.  Who shut him down? Did those details ever really come to light?

Hi vrtrasura,

I have no other information that what has been released through bitcoin talk. I would like to know these answers as much as everyone else.

As to the request for claims, I'll leave the response from Quentin here also.

Best,
James

Quote
In response to some of the questions and concerns raised by some members of the bitcoin/gigamining community to the information and documentation requested in the prior posting, Virtual Processing Solutions, LLC (hereinafter VPS), wished to provide the explanation and justification for these requests.

The information requested can be broadly divided into three principal categories:

  • Bitcoin payment address.
  • Identity information/documentation.
  • Affidavit of beneficial assignment.

There does not generally appear to be much concern over the issue of bitcoin payment addresses.  This information has been requested to facilitate ultimate payment of the bitcoins and to allow reconciliation with known outstanding obligations.

Identity information/documentation seems to be among the most controversial of the requested information.  This information is necessary for VPS to obtain and maintain for a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to, compliance with tax regulations of the US and foreign jurisdictions (both for recipients and VPS), compliance with the regulations of the US Treasury Office of Foreign Asset Control, and protection against, and remediation in the event of, fraudulent claims.

When considering these requirements, please keep several points in mind.  The triggering threshold for US IRS 1099 (or IRS 1042 for foreign residents) earnings are extremely modest (ranging from US $10 to $600 depending on the classification ultimately assigned by taxing authorities) and the ultimate value of the bitcoins from now until the close of the filing period is unknown.  It is also worth noting that, due to the nature of the contract, these proceeds could be considered interest income which can have a triggering threshold as low as US $10.

A number of foreign locations are currently under embargo by the United States, ranging from full (in the case of Cuba and Sudan) to partial (including Iran, Burma, Syria, and North Korea).  In many cases the regulations prohibit the transfer of any negotiable or liquid commodities to target countries.  In all such cases, the law establishes the clear responsibility of the transferring party to maintain a compliance program which includes, at a minimum due diligence in establishing the identity of the recipient.  Criminal violations of the statutes carry a penalty of twelve years in prison and fines of US $1,000,000 in additional to independent civil penalties of $1,075,000 per count.  

The affidavit is to provide assurance that all submitted information is true and correct, and to provide protection for VPS against fraudulent claims of assignment. It is worth noting in this matter, that prior to the shut-down of GLBSE, VPS had not maintained independent records of contract assignment, nor do unique tracking numbers for individual contracts exist.  Under such circumstances, the potential for multiple parties to claim beneficial assignment of contracts is manifest, and GLBSE cannot be counted on to provide resolution of conflicting claims or indemnify VPS in the event that the wrong party is paid.  While VPS cannot speak to the cost of the foreign equivalence of notarization (apostille), in the US, such services are available free of charge to account holders at most major US banks, and are otherwise available for minimal (US $20 approx.) fees.

It is absolutely incorrect to assert that these information and documentation requests are to avoid VPS’s obligations under extant contracts, and, in fact, the information requested is no more detailed or onerous than what is generally required to open a brokerage or bank account.

Finally, some concern has been raised that VPS is attempting to change the terms of the original contract.  This is, in fact, precisely the opposite of both the intent and effect of the efforts VPS is undertaking in this matter.  Specifically, the original contract is extremely limited in its text and terms, leaving many issues unresolved, including, most basically, who is a party to the contract (i.e. the identity of the issuer and beneficial assignee).  These omissions alone could possibly cause the contract to be unenforceable, not merely on technical grounds, but because of the practical difficulties in establishing the parties to whom payment is due.  

Further, under US law, contracts are always subordinate to the law of the governing jurisdictions (i.e. where law and contract conflict, the law prevails).  To remedy this known issue, many contracts, include clauses to allow courts to redraw contracts to conform to existing laws to prevent their wholesale invalidation due to conflict with governing law (so called “blue pencil” authorization).  No such clause exists in the written contracts at issue.  Nevertheless, VPS has deliberately chosen to attempt, at its own substantial cost, to remedy both of these limitations in the existing contract, by allowing identification of the parties post de facto, and acting as though blue pencil clauses existed to bring the terms of the contract into compliance with US and State law.  Neither of these actions is explicitly required of VPS by law, nor in VPS’s proximate financial interest, but are nonetheless being undertaken to maintain good faith with the bitcoin/gigamining community.
member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
...
December 04, 2012, 07:46:46 PM
Giga, if Nefario released a "better" list as he JoelKatz describes would you still force us to give you all of our personal information? 

Also, since you seem intimately familiar with GLBSEs state, what exactly happened.  Who shut him down? Did those details ever really come to light?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
December 04, 2012, 06:27:34 PM
Easy: just start paying back who is on the Nefario's list if you want be honest and consistent with your promise and past behavior. Who is not in the list, and say he should, can try his best to get things fixed with Nefario in order to get paid later, or just call the cops (the best option for everyone in this case imho). But using such cases as a pseudo-excuse to steal the assets of the most of your investors is just lame.
As you said, this process can only work if either Nefario or law enforcement is willing to participate in it. There's no evidence of either. And if law enforcement does get involved, the last thing an asset issuer will want to have done is paid out all the funds they hold to the wrong people.

I understand your frustration, but you are insisting other people do things that have huge risks to them and, frankly, don't make any sense. I would suggest pressuring GLBSE to agree to mediate a redemption process or, failing that, issue cryptographically verifiable asset holder lists so asset issuers can prove a particular person is or isn't on the list they got. You chose GLBSE to protect your ownership interest -- make them do what you paid them to do or hold them accountable.
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
December 04, 2012, 06:23:14 PM
You are advocating doing the same things that put GLBSE squarely in the place it is now.

It makes no sense.

Being upset isn't going to change that.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
December 04, 2012, 06:18:50 PM
No one is trying to steal anything.

So tell me, what are you going to do with my coins since I have no intention of sending you my notarized ID nor signing anything? Return them to me? No? Well that in my dictionary is called stealing.

If you would take the time to read anything I've posted, you'd know the PII information is to comply with US federal law along with the other reasons given. Tax IDs are to be able to file the necessary paperwork at year's end.

You cannot force me to accept anything while taking my money hostage. You made your original offer in the undergound economy and it is there that I want to remain. If you want to go legit under a new contract, perform a buyback and send me my coins back or you are a thieve.

The contract was never in to Gigamining OP.

So what you deleted from your OP? And why Theymos reposted it, and it was found saying exactly what you was trying to negate in the same thread about your obligations?
vip
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1000
AKA: gigavps
December 04, 2012, 06:06:25 PM
Hi conspirosphere.tk,

Your brutal slaughtering of the facts needs to stop.

Easy: just start paying back who is on the Nefario's list if you want be honest and consistent with your promise and past behavior. Who is not in the list, and say he should, can try his best to get things fixed with Nefario in order to get paid later, or just call the cops (the best option for everyone in this case imho). But using such cases as a pseudo-excuse to steal the assets of the most of your investors is just lame.

No one is trying to steal anything. If you would take the time to read anything I've posted, you'd know the PII information is to comply with US federal law along with the other reasons given. Tax IDs are to be able to file the necessary paperwork at year's end.

Not to speak about deleting the original contract from his opening post and try to negate the content of his OP later, or forcing his investors to commit crimes testifying officially falsities while shifting his personal responsibilities to a phony LLC, etc.

The contract was never in to Gigamining OP. The actual contract was only ever hosted on GLBSE. I have posted in on the gigamining website.

http://gigamining.com/faq.html

Anyway, it does not matter any more. No one can seriously expect to get anything back of their GLBSE investments beyond maybe some crumbs of single-digit percentage points in the most fortunate cases. Another lesson learned the hard way.

In all of your screaming, you are advocating doing things the same way that GLBSE did them. But what you fail to see is that doing that will only land us in the same spot GLBSE is now.

Regards,
James
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
December 04, 2012, 05:48:32 PM
please explain it to me. For example, what happens if someone claims they held the asset but the asset issuer claims they weren't on the list? This could be resolved if GLBSE was actively participating or had made the lists cryptographically verifiable. But so far as I know, there is zero participation from Nefario/GLBSE.

Easy: just start paying back who is on the Nefario's list if you want be honest and consistent with your promise and past behavior. Who is not in the list, and say he should, can try his best to get things fixed with Nefario in order to get paid later, or just call the cops (the best option for everyone in this case imho). But using such cases as a pseudo-excuse to steal the assets of the most of your investors is just lame.

Not to speak about deleting the original contract from his opening post and try to negate the content of his OP later, or forcing his investors to commit crimes testifying officially falsities while shifting his personal responsibilities to a phony LLC, etc.
 
Anyway, it does not matter any more. No one can seriously expect to get anything back of their GLBSE investments beyond maybe some crumbs of single-digit percentage points in the most fortunate cases. Another lesson learned the hard way.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
December 04, 2012, 04:57:39 PM
If he did not trust Nefario from the beginning, but he resorted to use GLBSE anyway, then he exposed his investors to a third-party risk that he knew about without informing them about it.
Any such risks would have been equally obvious, or non-obvious, to the issuer and to the investors. It's not like some decision on the part of the issuer exposes the investors to this risk in a way that was hidden.

In retrospect, I agree with you. Anyone listing an asset on a stock exchange like GLBSE should have included a section in the offer explaining the risks associated with using an anonymous exchange. And they should also have included a section explaining what would happen if the exchange failed or delisted the asset.

It's hard to blame any specific person for not predicting this because, as far as I know, nobody predicted it. In retrospect, though, it's obvious that it's a significant risk that should have been addressed ahead of time.

It looks like the crypto-currency community is going to have to learn every single painful lesson that the regular financial world has learned. Probably more than once.

Quote
Don't try to shift the blame. Nefario has already sent him a list of investors' assets. The jig is up. .

There is nothing to claim. The investors' assets list Nefario sent him should be considered true until the opposite is proven. Otherwise it is too easy for him to steal such assets with such lame argument.
Nobody knows how to do this. If you do, please explain it to me. For example, what happens if someone claims they held the asset but the asset issuer claims they weren't on the list? This could be resolved if GLBSE was actively participating or had made the lists cryptographically verifiable. But so far as I know, there is zero participation from Nefario/GLBSE.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
December 04, 2012, 07:14:30 AM
Do you realize that you are aggravating his position? If he did not trust Nefario from the beginning, then he voluntarily put at risk his investors' funds from day 1.
He didn't do that, his investors did. If GLBSE had run off with their money, would you have argued that's somehow his fault?

If he did not trust Nefario from the beginning, but he resorted to use GLBSE anyway, then he exposed his investors to a third-party risk that he knew about without informing them about it. I think it's kind of illegal, and anyway highly unethical. Like blaming the victims after stealing their money, which is what he's going to do behind the para-legal crap shield he's asking for.

Giga actually has no other option -- he never extended any trust to Nefaro/GLBSE nor did he ever agree to extend any.
False. No other issuers asked for all the crap he is asking up to now (even if many would find profitable to steal their investors' assets in this way).
That's kind of a circular argument. If this is his mess to clean up, then he extended trust. And if he extended trust, it's his mess to clean up.
In retrospect, we all should have thought of it, but I don't think anyone considered a sudden, complete GLBSE shutdown likely.

Don't try to shift the blame. Nefario has already sent him a list of investors' assets. The jig is up.

The most common risk is the risk of paying false claims.

There is nothing to claim. The investors' assets list Nefario sent him should be considered true until the opposite is proven. Otherwise it is too easy for him to steal such assets with such lame argument.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
Lead Blockchain Developer
December 04, 2012, 01:48:24 AM
Quote
Exposure to lawsuits from investors.
I don't see how this is trust extended to the exchange. You mean if the exchange does something wrong, the issuer might get sued? I would consider that a pretty unrealistic fear. We'll find out which of us is right.

I live in the US.  Lawsuits are never an unrealistic fear.

Quote
Exposure to bugs in the exchange that held up dividends or trading, thus depressing the value of your assets and angering asset holders.
That doesn't really hurt the issuer.

Eh... really?  So if an asset's price tanks, it doesn't hurt the issuer at all?  What if it happens during IPO?  What about the asset issuers operating funds holding that asset?

Quote
Exposure to legal issues because the exchange wasn't on solid legal ground.
I don't see how that's trust extended to the exchange.

Because if the exchange leads you to believe they're a company operating legally, and later on you find out they aren't, and they shut down, you're f'd?  Isn't this exactly what happened?

Quote
For funds that held their portfolio on GLBSE, exposure to your portfolio disappearing.
Yes, I agree that asset owners have to trust the exchange. The question was whether asset owners had to trust the exchange.

Funds my man, I specifically said funds.  You know, the assets that hold other assets as investments?  If you were an asset issuer operating a fund that held assets on the same exchange, you're putting a huge amount of trust in the platform as a whole.


I guess if you're not an asset issuer with your tail hanging out, you might not see the exposure, but it's there, like it or not.  And even if you can't latch on to any of these reasons discussed, you hit the big one square on the head for me in your previous post:

Quote
I guess there's risk to your reputation

That's a pretty big deal to anyone trying to operate a legitimate ongoing business.

Cheers.
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
December 04, 2012, 12:47:55 AM
But what was your exposure exactly? Maybe I'm missing something. I guess there's risk to your reputation and risk of lost profits.

Really?  It doesn't take much imagination.
These are mostly very minor or aren't a case of an asset issuer having to trust an exchange.

Quote
Exposure to lawsuits from investors.
I don't see how this is trust extended to the exchange. You mean if the exchange does something wrong, the issuer might get sued? I would consider that a pretty unrealistic fear. We'll find out which of us is right.

Quote
Exposure to release of your personal details after doing the verification process.
True. As it happens, giga isn't anonymous, but that applies to some issuers.

Quote
Exposure to bugs in the exchange that held up dividends or trading, thus depressing the value of your assets and angering asset holders.
That doesn't really hurt the issuer.

Quote
Exposure to legal issues because the exchange wasn't on solid legal ground.
I don't see how that's trust extended to the exchange.

Quote
For funds that held their portfolio on GLBSE, exposure to your portfolio disappearing.
Yes, I agree that asset owners have to trust the exchange. The question was whether asset owners had to trust the exchange.

Sure, if asset issuers also hold assets, then in their capacity as asset holders, they have to trust the exchange. But one can issue an asset without holding any assets on that exchange. As asset issuers, in that role, very little trust is extended to the exchange operator. (This is not the way it would normally be, it's unique to the Bitcoin universe.)

legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1004
Lead Blockchain Developer
December 04, 2012, 12:12:12 AM
But what was your exposure exactly? Maybe I'm missing something. I guess there's risk to your reputation and risk of lost profits.

Really?  It doesn't take much imagination.

Exposure to lawsuits from investors.
Exposure to release of your personal details after doing the verification process.
Exposure to bugs in the exchange that held up dividends or trading, thus depressing the value of your assets and angering asset holders.
Exposure to legal issues because the exchange wasn't on solid legal ground.
For funds that held their portfolio on GLBSE, exposure to your portfolio disappearing.

Cheers.

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
December 03, 2012, 03:45:27 PM
Do you realize that you are aggravating his position? If he did not trust Nefario from the beginning, then he voluntarily put at risk his investors' funds from day 1.
He didn't do that, his investors did. If GLBSE had run off with their money, would you have argued that's somehow his fault?

Giga actually has no other option -- he never extended any trust to Nefaro/GLBSE nor did he ever agree to extend any.

False. No other issuers asked for all the crap he is asking up to now (even if many would find profitable to steal their investors' assets in this way).
That's kind of a circular argument. If this is his mess to clean up, then he extended trust. And if he extended trust, it's his mess to clean up.

In retrospect, we all should have thought of it, but I don't think anyone considered a sudden, complete GLBSE shutdown likely. So I don't think you can argue trust was extended on that basis. If someone gives you free concert tickets and while you're gone they have a friend rob your home, you trusted them to know when you would be away from home in a sense. But you didn't really decide to trust them if you never seriously considered the possibility that the concert tickets were a trick to rob your home.

The contract doesn't obligate him to accept these costs and risks.

Which contract? The one he deleted like a weasel just before requiring for lots of para-legal crap? And which risks? To actually pay back his investors? You call that a risk?
Any contract so far as I know. I don't know of any asset listed on GLBSE that obligated the issuer to cover the costs and risks associated with preserving asset ownership across a sudden GLBSE failure. As for the risks, there are many. The specifics depend on the contract. The most common risk is the risk of paying false claims. And the costs are obvious -- figuring out which claims are legitimate is not free. No asset issuer, to my knowledge, ever agreed to bear those costs or arranged a way to pass them on to the asset holders.
legendary
Activity: 2352
Merit: 1064
Bitcoin is antisemitic
December 03, 2012, 09:17:25 AM
You trusted Nefario enough to take our money.
He never necessarily extended any trust to Nefario at all. Asset issuers don't have to extend any trust at all to the exchange. You don't have to trust someone to take someone else's money -- the person giving them the money has to trust them to do the right thing with it.

Do you realize that you are aggravating his position? If he did not trust Nefario from the beginning, then he voluntarily put at risk his investors' funds from day 1.

Giga actually has no other option -- he never extended any trust to Nefaro/GLBSE nor did he ever agree to extend any.

False. No other issuers asked for all the crap he is asking up to now (even if many would find profitable to steal their investors' assets in this way).

The contract doesn't obligate him to accept these costs and risks.

Which contract? The one he deleted like a weasel just before requiring for lots of para-legal crap? And which risks? To actually pay back his investors? You call that a risk?
legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
December 03, 2012, 07:20:37 AM
Giga actually has no other option -- he never extended any trust to Nefaro/GLBSE nor did he ever agree to extend any. The contract doesn't obligate him to accept these costs and risks.
I'm going to have to disagree on that one.  My own issue of LTC-MINING was only 1000 shares but I knew going into it that I had to trust GLBSE for the whole process to work for the lifespan of the asset.  I thought about it, did some research, and decided that I could trust GLBSE to be available long term.  Nefario was actively developing on it, progress was being made on outstanding issues, he was posting to the forums regularly, etc.  I even went through all the "what if" scenarios in my head and decided that even if he decided to shut down, it would be easy for him to give a weeks warning, I'd buy back all the issues per my asset's contract, and be done.  Thus I very intentionally and deliberately extended trust to GLBSE to perform their end of the bargain, which was made in exchange for 8 BTC up front, and a percentage of trades thereafter.

Everyone that used it extended trust to GLBSE, especially the asset issuers.
I don't quite follow you. In what sense did you extend trust to GLBSE? In what way could GLBSE have done something that would have hurt you?

Now, the people who bought assets from you had to trust that GLBSE would actually deliver their money to you. Otherwise, they wouldn't get any dividends. And they had to trust that GLBSE would actually distribute the dividends to the asset holders. And, of course, they had to trust that GLBSE would remain in operation and not somehow lose or destroy their ownership interest. They had to trust that GLBSE would remain operational to ensure there continues to be a market that preserves the value of their assets. So they extend all kinds of trust.

But what was your exposure exactly? Maybe I'm missing something. I guess there's risk to your reputation and risk of lost profits.

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