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Topic: Socialism is so bad that it allows poor people to live. Horrible true story - page 2. (Read 10317 times)

legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
There are kids in 5th grade who know how to source. Apparently neither of you do. That isn't a source, its a picture with ZERO substantiation. Go back to grade school.

It's a graphic with direct informations. Can't you read a graphic?

Sources are needed to check informations, not to understand them.

And it's funny how you talk a lot about my education while not considering the fact that I might, just might, have a good one. In science.

Some times you guys make it so easy its not even worth responding. Its like getting into a boxing match with a baby. If you win so what, you beat up a baby, if you lose you got beat up by a baby. Just because you got a piece of paper from some institution doesn't make you educated. Considering you can't even define a source, I am not going to hold my breath on your "good one, In science." Besides you have already played the Ethos card, I know you are an engineer, and that is somewhat terrifying. Hopefully you are engineering things that won't kill people when they inevitably collapse.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 4
why argue about one political system if each of us can live in political system he likes without the monopoly of the same-state jurisdiction on the current piece of land, welcome to the panarchy
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
There are kids in 5th grade who know how to source. Apparently neither of you do. That isn't a source, its a picture with ZERO substantiation. Go back to grade school.

It's a graphic with direct informations. Can't you read a graphic?

Sources are needed to check informations, not to understand them.

And it's funny how you talk a lot about my education while not considering the fact that I might, just might, have a good one. In science.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
I find it terrifying you are teaching other people. Who taught you how to source? I see a meaningless picture.

You got precise figures and dates on a measured graphic. You don't need source, you need to see if you can find your own contradicting source.

But it's not like you could as you don't seem to be able to use Google.

There are kids in 5th grade who know how to source. Apparently neither of you do. That isn't a source, its a picture with ZERO substantiation. Go back to grade school.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
I find it terrifying you are teaching other people. Who taught you how to source? I see a meaningless picture.

You got precise figures and dates on a measured graphic. You don't need source, you need to see if you can find your own contradicting source.

But it's not like you could as you don't seem to be able to use Google.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
member
Activity: 980
Merit: 62
The only socialism there is, is in prisons. People who don't like socialism move out. People die everywhere... not only in socialism.

Cool

The fact is the way they die.
It is very sad to consider socialism an equal political way of ruling such as all the others that exist right now.
People don't have the same skills, we are different... So socialism cannot work.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
Somalia is the only one that is 100% either.


NK was destroyed by capitalism
Quote
almost all loans in the 1960s were accepted from socialist states while loans in the 1970s included a huge amount from capitalist states.


Foreign Loans and Grants (US$ Million)

           USSR           China   Other    OECD Members   Subtotal
Before 1948   53.0   -   -   -53.0
1953-60   609.0   459.6   364.9   -   1,883.5
(Grants)   (325.0)   (287.1)   (364.9)   -   (977.0)
1961-70   558.3   157.4   159.0   9   883.7
1971-80   682.1   300.0   -   1,292.2   2,274.1
1981-90   508.4   500.0   -       -   1,008.4
Total   2,409.8   1,417.0   523.9   1,301.0   6,102.7
Source: "North Korea’s External Debts: Trend and Characteristics, Korea Focus" (KDI Review of the North Korea Economy, March 2012, published by the Korea Development Institute)

They were doing great in the 50s and 60s until capitalist loans drowned the country in debt

The capitalist loans were instantly repaid.

The so-called borrower signed the promissory note, thereby giving it value. The banker across the table took the note (as a loan to the bank) and deposited it in a private bank account. Then he withdrew the same amount in cash or bank check form, and repaid the loan. But he told the dumb patsy that the repayment money was a loan from the bank, and that the patsy would have to repay the loan plus interest over the term.

Check the banks audited ledgers. This is exactly what they show.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
The only socialism there is, is in prisons. People who don't like socialism move out. People die everywhere... not only in socialism.

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
Somalia is the only one that is 100% either.


NK was destroyed by capitalism
Quote
almost all loans in the 1960s were accepted from socialist states while loans in the 1970s included a huge amount from capitalist states.


Foreign Loans and Grants (US$ Million)

           USSR           China   Other    OECD Members   Subtotal
Before 1948   53.0   -   -   -53.0
1953-60   609.0   459.6   364.9   -   1,883.5
(Grants)   (325.0)   (287.1)   (364.9)   -   (977.0)
1961-70   558.3   157.4   159.0   9   883.7
1971-80   682.1   300.0   -   1,292.2   2,274.1
1981-90   508.4   500.0   -       -   1,008.4
Total   2,409.8   1,417.0   523.9   1,301.0   6,102.7
Source: "North Korea’s External Debts: Trend and Characteristics, Korea Focus" (KDI Review of the North Korea Economy, March 2012, published by the Korea Development Institute)

They were doing great in the 50s and 60s until capitalist loans drowned the country in debt
jr. member
Activity: 31
Merit: 2
This thread is people trying to convince other people who have already made up their minds about capitalism and socialism.   Huh


Meanwhile, no nation in the world is 100% of either.  Well, maybe North Korea.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
None of this is "hypothetical" or "sometimes".  The graph I posted is actual spending and actual outcomes.  The trendline represents the affect spending has on outcome and the countries below that line (mainly the us) are wasting money while the countries above the line are getting health outcomes out of something besides money.  

Who knew you could get a better bang for your buck if you stopped giving trillions away to middle men?

Not so difficult to see what the other 19 countries have in common.  At least half of the money we spend is literally just being donated to the private sector.  4500 dollars per person per year being burned and thats the most conservative estimate.  Its probably more like 7,000 if you consider the average spending for our life expectancy. 

I find it terrifying you are teaching other people. Who taught you how to source? I see a meaningless picture.
full member
Activity: 952
Merit: 175
@cryptocommies
None of this is "hypothetical" or "sometimes".  The graph I posted is actual spending and actual outcomes.  The trendline represents the affect spending has on outcome and the countries below that line (mainly the us) are wasting money while the countries above the line are getting health outcomes out of something besides money.  

Who knew you could get a better bang for your buck if you stopped giving trillions away to middle men?



Not so difficult to see what the other 19 countries have in common.  At least half of the money we spend is literally just being donated to the private sector.  4500 dollars per person per year being burned and thats the most conservative estimate.  Its probably more like 7,000 if you consider the average spending for our life expectancy. 
newbie
Activity: 4
Merit: 0
"Why socialism failed" and it appeared in 1995 in the Freeman,the flagship publication of the foundation for economic education.i think it was the first essay or op-ed i wrote for a general audience following graduation in 1993 from George mason university with a ph.d. in economics.note that the title of the article("failed") implied the past tense,as ig i perhaps aassumed the failures of socialism were so apparent and obvious(i called it the big lie of the 20 th century) that it would be forever considered only as a discredited system of the past,and never as a viable option going forward into the future!
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Another point of interest might be how health provision is changing in my country, the UK. We are gradually moving from an almost French system towards an American system as our fascination with privatisation takes a greater and greater hold. Services are suffering as money gets sucked out by private companies.

I won't deny that nationalised industries can suffer from inefficiency and bloat, but equally it is impossible to deny that once something is privatised, the whole purpose switches from quality of service provision to share price and shareholder dividends.

Funny thing is that... Same in France...

We have the best and most efficient healthcare system in the worls, absolutely all studies and associations agree on that, but no we're going full speed towards privatization.

Who gains from this?
I'm sure you can guess.

You could try to argue a rock dropped, in mid air is in fact flying, but trends and time will demonstrate without a doubt it is falling. Just as cutting your own arm off to nourish yourself might work for a short period of time, eventually you run out of limbs to amputate.

"Copayment/Deductibles. 10% to 40% copayments.

Technology. The government does not reimburse new technologies very generously and because of global budgets and fee restrictions, there is little incentive to make capital investments in medical technology.

Waiting Times. France has generally avoided waiting lists, likely due to the fairly high coinsurance charges. Recent trends towards Increased restrictions, reduced reimbursement rates, and rationing has increased wait times however.

Tanner’s summary. “To sum up: the French health care system clearly works better than most national health care systems. Despite some problems, France has generally avoided the rationing inherent in other systems. However, the program is threatened by increasing costs and may be forced to resort to rationing in the future.”"

https://www.healthcare-economist.com/2008/04/14/health-care-around-the-world-france/


"Indeed, in a World Health Organisation comparison of 191 different countries, France came out at number one.

It’s important to be clear, however: Beyond legitimate questions about the WHO’s methodology, the ranking itself dates from 2000. That said, France remains on top of the list, because it was the first and last such ranking conducted by the WHO. Since then, France has occupied a number of positions in other rankings, depending on their criteria and definition of what constitutes a “good” health care system.

A July 2017 analysis by the New York–based Commonwealth Fund compared the health care systems of 11 industrialized countries. They put France at number 10, just above the United States, with the United Kingdom at number one. Yet in another ranking – published in May by The Lancet, it looked at 195 countries – the UK was ranked 26th, while France came in 15th. And in the top position, the tiny principality of Andorra. All this demonstrates just how difficult it is to interpret such rankings."

https://theconversation.com/how-healthy-is-the-french-health-system-83329

While these systems may function for a time, bureaucratic bloat uninhibited by market forces always takes over.

legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
Another point of interest might be how health provision is changing in my country, the UK. We are gradually moving from an almost French system towards an American system as our fascination with privatisation takes a greater and greater hold. Services are suffering as money gets sucked out by private companies.

I won't deny that nationalised industries can suffer from inefficiency and bloat, but equally it is impossible to deny that once something is privatised, the whole purpose switches from quality of service provision to share price and shareholder dividends.

Funny thing is that... Same in France...

We have the best and most efficient healthcare system in the worls, absolutely all studies and associations agree on that, but no we're going full speed towards privatization.

Who gains from this?
I'm sure you can guess.
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1277
For those who are interested, and haven't seen it, it might be worth watching Michael Moore's 'Sicko'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko

"The movie compares the profiteering, non-universal U.S. system with the non-profit universal health care systems of Canada, the United Kingdom, France and Cuba"

It might be 10 years old, but is still largely valid.

Another point of interest might be how health provision is changing in my country, the UK. We are gradually moving from an almost French system towards an American system as our fascination with privatisation takes a greater and greater hold. Services are suffering as money gets sucked out by private companies.

I won't deny that nationalised industries can suffer from inefficiency and bloat, but equally it is impossible to deny that once something is privatised, the whole purpose switches from quality of service provision to share price and shareholder dividends.
legendary
Activity: 1344
Merit: 1251
Its not a fact "socialist healthcare" "treats better and costs less". Socialism leads to shortages, doctors with less expertise, long wait lists, and government dictating what healthcare you can receive. Furthermore the costs are simply passed on via taxes, so it "costing less" is totally an illusion anyway, especially after bureaucratic bloat takes effect. Just because the study was attempting to make that point doesn't make the conclusion valid.

It's not a fact that people are treated better in France than in USA for a smaller amount of GDP?

Cause that's exactly what the study proves.

There is nearly no difference in how poors and rich people are treated in France hence people are treated much better in France than in USA.

There is no "long wait lists" or "shortages" or whatever in France.

It's the best health care in the world in terms of performance. The only category USA is first is on the amount of money spent per capita. Which shows how insanely innefficient it is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization_ranking_of_health_systems_in_2000

legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
Capitalism is better for everyone, it is not even a debate if you are looking at factual information and not making arguments based on your emotions.

Hmm...

Then explain why socialist health care treats better everyone and costs less?
That's kind of the whole point of the study... To show that capitalist health care is costly and inneffective...

Its not a fact "socialist healthcare" "treats better and costs less". Socialism leads to shortages, doctors with less expertise, long wait lists, and government dictating what healthcare you can receive. Furthermore the costs are simply passed on via taxes, so it "costing less" is totally an illusion anyway, especially after bureaucratic bloat takes effect. Just because the study was attempting to make that point doesn't make the conclusion valid.
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