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Topic: Solution to poverty - Socialism or Capitalism? - page 25. (Read 30791 times)

hero member
Activity: 988
Merit: 1000
I think the ideal scenario is a mix of socialism and capitalist elements. Cause full out marxism is too extreme and there will always be greed, an innate human trait. Smiley
I think it would really need to be one or the other. Socialism and Capitalism are really not compatible with each other. Some would likely say that they are polar opposites of each-other.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
Quote
Several problems with this. First, automation leads to unemployment. A factory that once employed hundreds of people can now be run by robots and a few overseers and a repair crew. This would not be a problem if the reduced costs and increased profits were passed on to the formerly employed, but this is not the case. Rising overall production does not necessarily lead to a higher standard of living for the average person.

On the short term this may be true in the factory, but not true by looking outside. And on the long term, maybe more jobs can be created INSIDE the factory.

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A factory that once employed hundreds of people can now be run by robots and a few overseers and a repair crew.

However, in general as a owner, you don't expect to reduce employement. You want to maximize profit.
If there is demand for your product, you will increase the number of robot, so increase the production, and so increase the number of overseers, and repair crews.

You forget also all business that got created like Trainers for the repair crews, Developers for the robot, and all jobs needed for the creation of such robot.

Jobs are moving, if you take the example of one factory and don't look outside, sure employment got lost in the factory, but they reappear in other forms elsewhere.
Sure it is bad if you worked in the factory. But don't expect me, as a developer that profit from this technological shift, to pay for their loss. They would have not pay me if computing were a fad and I lost my time learning everything about automation. And I did not expect them to do it.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 662
Quote
And "anarcho"-capitalists can harp on government all they want, but in my eyes, a private state is no better than a public one. When a landowner (and cumulatively, landowners) can draw lines on a map, declare their own laws and enforce them with violence, that's statism in my eyes.

This is why not every capitalist are anarcho. Having a public state or a private state one is exactly the same to my eyes.
What non-anarcho recognize is the need of a state to enforce property right.
No private party can use enforcement, enforcement is monopoly of the state.


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I just think the ideal is a society where people don't have power over one another. That means a conception of property that favors possession, use and occupancy over absentee accumulation.
I don't follow you, either you don't know you are a capitalist or I don't know I am a socialist...

If we have the same definition of possession, that is, you don't consider that something that the state possess is your possession, then you are a capitalist... sorry to tell you that.


legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1002
Hypotheticals are not useful. I concern myself with what is possible now, not far into the future.
I would say it is possible using current technology level. As more libertarians will cry "human nature" the faster leftist biohackers will find a solution!  Wink

Several problems with this. First, automation leads to unemployment. A factory that once employed hundreds of people can now be run by robots and a few overseers and a repair crew. This would not be a problem if the reduced costs and increased profits were passed on to the formerly employed, but this is not the case. Rising overall production does not necessarily lead to a higher standard of living for the average person.

Second, a man without some form of work is a social pariah. Especially one living in a western nation who is forced to move in with someone else. It's another factor in why the fertility levels are dropping and the increasing levels of dysfunction in society. We don't need more productivity as much as we need employment, even if the overall national production falls as a result.
Technological unemployment problem is a redistribution issue. In the state with citizen's ownership on means of production (i.e. socialist-Marxist one) low birth rates and high productivity growth will offset each other.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 506
This is especially true with the inflation we are seeing and many of those government employees who will be receiving indexed pensions matching inflation.

Stagflation means the government's taxation revenue is declining every year while its' liabilities, such as those indexed pensions, continues to go up, and the governments make up the shortfall through more debt and the interest is paid out to the 1% who owns it.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
Our brains don't predispose us to live in a society that has a state - I'd argue that is very much a cultural issue, and a relatively recent one in our history, if you look closely. Besides, the example of Catalonia has been brought up a few times: after decades of anarchical experiments, the population there went on to create a stateless society for a couple of years.
Catalonia is not a world power.

Fact is that the bigger the society the bigger things we can create - such as indoor plumping and hot water, for example. Electricity too I guess. Now it might just be me, but I feel pretty predisposed to have a clean dwelling with useful amenities.

The problem is not the fact that we have a state, but the power and abilities we give it and the culture as a whole. The problem is that we are dying. We have created an ideology that encourages women to study and work during their most fertile years and to postpone having kids until they are older. As a result, we have less kids. More people are dying than are being born and it has been that way since around the 80s.

A welfare state that depends on taking money from those who work and giving it to those who do not requires a constant influx of young taxpayers, and we do not have it. Every western culture will collapse as a result of this. That's the problem we need to find a solution to, and there are only two ways. Either we need to have more kids, or we need to dismantle the welfare system. There are no other ways out at this point.

Sorry to bring it back to it, but Catalonia was able to maintain their infrastructure and build upon it - the idea that you need a central authority to perform the tasks you mention doesn't make sense. And yes, the fertility rate does seem to decline the more well developed the society, but I don't see it as exclusively translating to a choice between abolishing welfare or having more kids; why not moving towards some real form of socialism, and not just stopgap measures?
As fertility declines the relative size of taxpayers to non-taxpayers shrinks. This means higher taxes and less handouts for everyone as well as worse public services such as hospitals, police and fire departments. It is arguably the primary cause behind the current financial problems, which will only get worse as the baby boomer generation enters retirement (which is currently happening).
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
The solution is not to get rid of greed. Because greed is not a problem, and it's not possible anyway.
Are you really sure that greed cannot be eliminated in principle (even counting technology advancements in the future)? Can you bet your own Bitcoins to protect this argument? Wink
Hypotheticals are not useful. I concern myself with what is possible now, not far into the future.

A welfare state that depends on taking money from those who work and giving it to those who do not requires a constant influx of young taxpayers, and we do not have it. Every western nation will collapse as a result of this. That's the problem we need to find a solution to, and there are only two ways. Either we need to have more kids, or we need to dismantle the welfare system. There are no other ways out at this point.
Population decrease is not a problem while growth of productivity (automation and robotics) offset it.

Several problems with this. First, automation leads to unemployment. A factory that once employed hundreds of people can now be run by robots and a few overseers and a repair crew. This would not be a problem if the reduced costs and increased profits were passed on to the formerly employed, but this is not the case. Rising overall production does not necessarily lead to a higher standard of living for the average person.

Second, a man without some form of work is a social pariah. Especially one living in a western nation who is forced to move in with someone else. It's another factor in why the fertility levels are dropping and the increasing levels of dysfunction in society. We don't need more productivity as much as we need employment, even if the overall national production falls as a result.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 506
Did you read the article about revolutionary Catalonia?  Economically it was a failure and here's the paragraphs detailing what went wrong

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Another problem faced by the CNT was that while many collectivized firms were bankrupt, they refused to use the banks because the financial institutions were under the control of the socialist UGT.

After the initial disruption, the unions soon began an overall reorganization of all trades, closing down hundreds of smaller plants and focusing on those few better equipped ones, improving working conditions. In the region of Catalonia, more than seventy foundries were closed down, and production concentrated around twenty four larger foundries.[24] The CNT argued that the smaller plants were less efficient and secure. In Barcelona, 905 smaller beauty shops and barbershops were closed down, their equipment and workers being focused on 212 larger shops.

I don't think there were any GDP figures for revolutionary Catalonia but from the description it sounds like their economy must had contracted by a great deal.

How was it that all those shops were profitable and operating before the civil war era but as soon as the anarchists took over and collectivized everything that most of them closed down?  Maybe 'working conditions improved' but I figure it was an overall net loss, especially if you were the one of the unemployed tradesmen or barbers who was previously working at one of the smaller shops.

revolutionary Catalonia was frankly one of the few examples of anarcho-syndicalism and it's not enough to make a definite conclusion.  Much like maybe one of the few examples of a Libertarian society was the old west in the 1870s and it was too long ago and born out of unique circumstances that it may not be relevant to a developed country in the present times.



legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1071
Our brains don't predispose us to live in a society that has a state - I'd argue that is very much a cultural issue, and a relatively recent one in our history, if you look closely. Besides, the example of Catalonia has been brought up a few times: after decades of anarchical experiments, the population there went on to create a stateless society for a couple of years.
Catalonia is not a world power.

Fact is that the bigger the society the bigger things we can create - such as indoor plumping and hot water, for example. Electricity too I guess. Now it might just be me, but I feel pretty predisposed to have a clean dwelling with useful amenities.

The problem is not the fact that we have a state, but the power and abilities we give it and the culture as a whole. The problem is that we are dying. We have created an ideology that encourages women to study and work during their most fertile years and to postpone having kids until they are older. As a result, we have less kids. More people are dying than are being born and it has been that way since around the 80s.

A welfare state that depends on taking money from those who work and giving it to those who do not requires a constant influx of young taxpayers, and we do not have it. Every western culture will collapse as a result of this. That's the problem we need to find a solution to, and there are only two ways. Either we need to have more kids, or we need to dismantle the welfare system. There are no other ways out at this point.

Sorry to bring it back to it, but Catalonia was able to maintain their infrastructure and build upon it - the idea that you need a central authority to perform the tasks you mention doesn't make sense. And yes, the fertility rate does seem to decline the more well developed the society, but I don't see it as exclusively translating to a choice between abolishing welfare or having more kids; why not moving towards some real form of socialism, and not just stopgap measures?
legendary
Activity: 1582
Merit: 1002
The solution is not to get rid of greed. Because greed is not a problem, and it's not possible anyway.
Are you really sure that greed cannot be eliminated in principle (even counting technology advancements in the future)? Can you bet your own Bitcoins to protect this argument? Wink

A welfare state that depends on taking money from those who work and giving it to those who do not requires a constant influx of young taxpayers, and we do not have it. Every western nation will collapse as a result of this. That's the problem we need to find a solution to, and there are only two ways. Either we need to have more kids, or we need to dismantle the welfare system. There are no other ways out at this point.
Population decrease is not a problem while growth of productivity (automation and robotics) offset it.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
You may wish to hop into a time machine, I'm given to understand we turn into Eloi in the distant future. That's the only way your stateless society will come about.

Animals don't have states. Some of them have territorial boundaries for predation, but they are temporary. Families don't have economies, though some have a hierarchy of lineage. Aboriginal tribes were usually nomadic. There isn't any natural law that predisposes humans to live in predefined states.
Except, you know, for that pesky little detail of our brains. And families very much do have economies. As do individuals.

Our brains don't predispose us to live in a society that has a state - I'd argue that is very much a cultural issue, and a relatively recent one in our history, if you look closely. Besides, the example of Catalonia has been brought up a few times: after decades of anarchical experiments, the population there went on to create a stateless society for a couple of years.
Catalonia is not a world power.

Fact is that the bigger the society the bigger things we can create - such as indoor plumping and hot water, for example. Electricity too I guess. Now it might just be me, but I feel pretty predisposed to have a clean dwelling with useful amenities.

The problem is not the fact that we have a state, but the power and abilities we give it and the culture as a whole. The problem is that we are dying. We have created an ideology that encourages women to study and work during their most fertile years and to postpone having kids until they are older. As a result, we have less kids. More people are dying than are being born and it has been that way since around the 80s.

A welfare state that depends on taking money from those who work and giving it to those who do not requires a constant influx of young taxpayers, and we do not have it. Every western nation will collapse as a result of this. That's the problem we need to find a solution to, and there are only two ways. Either we need to have more kids, or we need to dismantle the welfare system. There are no other ways out at this point.
legendary
Activity: 2562
Merit: 1071
You may wish to hop into a time machine, I'm given to understand we turn into Eloi in the distant future. That's the only way your stateless society will come about.

Animals don't have states. Some of them have territorial boundaries for predation, but they are temporary. Families don't have economies, though some have a hierarchy of lineage. Aboriginal tribes were usually nomadic. There isn't any natural law that predisposes humans to live in predefined states.
Except, you know, for that pesky little detail of our brains. And families very much do have economies. As do individuals.

Our brains don't predispose us to live in a society that has a state - I'd argue that is very much a cultural issue, and a relatively recent one in our history, if you look closely. Besides, the example of Catalonia has been brought up a few times: after decades of anarchical experiments, the population there went on to create a stateless society for a couple of years.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
I think the ideal scenario is a mix of socialism and capitalist elements. Cause full out marxism is too extreme and there will always be greed, an innate human trait. Smiley
Greed is the fundamental drive behind everything we do. And it exists in any system. The main difference between capitalism and socialism is that socialists are greedy for other peoples money, in the current implementation at gunpoint, while capitalists just want to keep what is theirs.

The solution is not to get rid of greed. Because greed is not a problem, and it's not possible anyway. Instead use a system where greed becomes a positive force.
sr. member
Activity: 359
Merit: 250
I think the ideal scenario is a mix of socialism and capitalist elements. Cause full out marxism is too extreme and there will always be greed, an innate human trait. Smiley
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
You may wish to hop into a time machine, I'm given to understand we turn into Eloi in the distant future. That's the only way your stateless society will come about.

Animals don't have states. Some of them have territorial boundaries for predation, but they are temporary. Families don't have economies, though some have a hierarchy of lineage. Aboriginal tribes were usually nomadic. There isn't any natural law that predisposes humans to live in predefined states.
Except, you know, for that pesky little detail of our brains. And families very much do have economies. As do individuals.
donator
Activity: 1736
Merit: 1014
Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.
You may wish to hop into a time machine, I'm given to understand we turn into Eloi in the distant future. That's the only way your stateless society will come about.

Animals don't have states. Some of them have territorial boundaries for predation, but they are temporary. Families don't have economies, though some have a hierarchy of lineage. Aboriginal tribes were usually nomadic. There isn't any natural law that predisposes humans to live in predefined states.
full member
Activity: 154
Merit: 100
Being a Capitalist or Socialist isn't the solution to poverty alleviation rather it's LIBERTY thru Democracy with freedom in all aspects of the economy.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 506
The market cannot be ignored or you end up with a failing war communism or the article I posted about revolutionary Catalonia.

Regardless a lot of the root issues we see at the moment isn't due to capitalism but from accumulation, inflation and regulatory-tyranny.

 If someone is homeless in the United States then they get put into a homeless shelter or they sleep in some back alley.  If someone is homeless in Africa or the Middle East then they build themselves their own home.  The irony is if today laws were present back in the 1890s then some civil bureaucrat would deem all those farm homes to be "illegal constructions".


legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1278
I think "socialism" tends to be a red herring. Very much misunderstood. People might think it's inconsistent for me to be invested in BTC and to be anti-capitalist -- and it's sort of true. I just can't afford to be an ideological purist at this point in my life, for the sake of my family or myself. I just think the ideal is a society where people don't have power over one another. That means a conception of property that favors possession, use and occupancy over absentee accumulation. And "anarcho"-capitalists can harp on government all they want, but in my eyes, a private state is no better than a public one. When a landowner (and cumulatively, landowners) can draw lines on a map, declare their own laws and enforce them with violence, that's statism in my eyes.
You may wish to hop into a time machine, I'm given to understand we turn into Eloi in the distant future. That's the only way your stateless society will come about.

Landowners can be fought against. A state, with a huge nationwide gang, and an army to back the gang up if it fails, can not.
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Buy and sell bitcoins,
I think "socialism" tends to be a red herring. Very much misunderstood. People might think it's inconsistent for me to be invested in BTC and to be anti-capitalist -- and it's sort of true. I just can't afford to be an ideological purist at this point in my life, for the sake of my family or myself. I just think the ideal is a society where people don't have power over one another. That means a conception of property that favors possession, use and occupancy over absentee accumulation. And "anarcho"-capitalists can harp on government all they want, but in my eyes, a private state is no better than a public one. When a landowner (and cumulatively, landowners) can draw lines on a map, declare their own laws and enforce them with violence, that's statism in my eyes.
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