Starfish BCB - Loans and Deposits - page 23.

WifeOfStarfish

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Quote from: Micon on September 03, 2012, 01:07:27 AM

Ok so you claim to have 13,200 in profit - so I assume you will never need to take another investor deposit now? or will somehow a spot open up for someone new very soon? Why not use some profit and return depositor funds? why keep paying them 1% each week?

[/quote]

What - only 4 more questions? (She asks questioningly). You're off your game buddy. No respect for you Mighty Troll.

sadpandatech

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Quote from: Micon on September 03, 2012, 01:07:27 AM

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 03, 2012, 12:52:36 AM

Do I claim to have 17000 in profit, not at the moment, the M2M is about 13,200.

Ok so you claim to have 13,200 in profit - so I assume you will never need to take another investor deposit now? or will somehow a spot open up for someone new very soon? Why not use some profit and return depositor funds? why keep paying them 1% each week?

Do you have any accounting background at all? You do realize that the 'investments' portion of net assets includes princple on outstanding loans.

I agree, you are missing a breakdown of such, writtin in 'plain' english so you could calculate his profit but it's not rocket science to get a pretty good idea from what is listed.

And next time you want to compare lending here to BoA, you should probably actually read the report you link to. It looks like shit and lacks a LOT of information. Just looking at 2008, BoA total liabilities were more than 88% of their total assets. It would also be nice to see what their assets are, but I guess we'll just take them for their word that they really have the 1.8 trillion in total assets though they only have listed ~450 billion worth in the line items they did include... BCB liabilities are 53% of total assets for last month....

@rassah shame on you :/

finkleshnorts

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Quote from: Micon on September 03, 2012, 01:07:27 AM

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 03, 2012, 12:52:36 AM

Do I claim to have 17000 in profit, not at the moment, the M2M is about 13,200.

I assume you will never need to take another investor deposit now? or will somehow a spot open up for someone new very soon?

Do you know how to read?

Micon

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Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 03, 2012, 12:52:36 AM

Do I claim to have 17000 in profit, not at the moment, the M2M is about 13,200.

Ok so you claim to have 13,200 in profit - so I assume you will never need to take another investor deposit now? or will somehow a spot open up for someone new very soon? Why not use some profit and return depositor funds? why keep paying them 1% each week?

PatrickHarnett

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Quote from: Rassah on September 03, 2012, 12:43:42 AM

Quote from: WifeOfStarfish on September 03, 2012, 12:19:46 AM

Hmmm...On the one hand we have Micon's unqualified opinions and on the other - a starfish with a masters degree in commerce. It's down to the wire but I think the starfish has the tiniest edge re. credibility.

Sorry to chime in, but I have a masters in finance, and work for a banking entity, so have experience in lending and such, and this starfish thing also doesn't seem right to me. From what I've read, it doesn't seem that Patrick is trying to deliberately scam people, but it very much looks like he is promising something that will be impossible to deliver.

Welcome to the "debate". All I am promising currently is 1% per week (about 160BTC/week). I do a lot of business that never gets to the forum, and I expect it to stay that way. Probably why I was able to do a 3000 coin loan recently (I didn't have the spare to do the full 6k so split it with someone else, but I was offered 3.5%/week on that).

Going forward, the plan is to reduce the level of deposits because the lending market is changing quite a lot. I can do that pretty easily by reducing the fixed rate paid, or by simply returning accounts until I have a particular set of customers (and I would give preference to the older accounts because I'm like that). It's also because sensible business is being systematically excluded, but that happens from time to time.

PatrickHarnett

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Quote from: Micon on September 03, 2012, 12:37:57 AM

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700 <---- this is the total number of deposits you have on hand from your "investors" ?

I'm sorry that I have not pointed you to the previous posts:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1127390
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.981017

Currently Starfish BCB deposits are 16851 - I update this every week in this thread (as customers are fully aware).

I also have 5500 in liabilities under the Kraken Fund (you'll find that over in securities, limited to 25 people, restricted account limits, uncertain earnings),
4173 in BS&T deposits that I set up as a favour for three people that asked if I would do that for them, and 162 BTC in 7Seas.

Do I claim to have 17000 in profit, not at the moment, the M2M is about 13,200.

Rassah

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Quote from: WifeOfStarfish on September 03, 2012, 12:19:46 AM

Hmmm...On the one hand we have Micon's unqualified opinions and on the other - a starfish with a masters degree in commerce. It's down to the wire but I think the starfish has the tiniest edge re. credibility.

Sorry to chime in, but I have a masters in finance, and work for a banking entity, so have experience in lending and such, and this starfish thing also doesn't seem right to me. From what I've read, it doesn't seem that Patrick is trying to deliberately scam people, but it very much looks like he is promising something that will be impossible to deliver.

Micon

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Quote from: WifeOfStarfish on September 03, 2012, 12:19:46 AM

Quote from: Micon on September 02, 2012, 06:14:49 PM

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 02, 2012, 03:17:13 PM

I thought it would be useful to seek some clarification about what it would take for Starfish to achieve the mythical Micon seal of approval. What that turned out to be was essentially revealing the details of every piece of business that I transact in bitcoinland.

Nothing Mythical about it. Anyone offering to borrow more money at 1% per week after having already borrowed ~$200k USD and with a positive balance sheet appears to be a scam. I am willing to debate this with you. Please answer me the following question about your balance sheet:

Quote from: PatrickHarnett

July 2012 activity (updated 1 August 2012)
- 14 loans repaid (approx 7800BTC)
- 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
- 66 deposits (total approx 15400)
- deposits repaid during the month (at call) >3600

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

this seems to me that you claim to owe 19,700 BTC to current depositors.
you claim to have 37,100 BTC between cash / BTC / investments

Q: Why would you ever need to borrow another satoshi at 1% if you have 17,400 BTC profit ?

Hmmm...On the one hand we have Micon's unqualified opinions and on the other - a starfish with a masters degree in commerce. It's down to the wire but I think the starfish has the tiniest edge re. credibility.

1) I'm a college drop out, I have no degrees of any sort.

2) I expect this question to be dodged over and over, so I'm going to keep posting it and "Starfish" is going to keep not responding:

Quote from: PatrickHarnett

July 2012 activity (updated 1 August 2012)
- 14 loans repaid (approx 7800BTC)
- 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
- 66 deposits (total approx 15400)
- deposits repaid during the month (at call) >3600

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

Do you claim to have 17,400 BTC in profit?

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700 <---- this is the total number of deposits you have on hand from your "investors" ?

WifeOfStarfish

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Activity: 56

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Quote from: Micon on September 02, 2012, 06:14:49 PM

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 02, 2012, 03:17:13 PM

I thought it would be useful to seek some clarification about what it would take for Starfish to achieve the mythical Micon seal of approval. What that turned out to be was essentially revealing the details of every piece of business that I transact in bitcoinland.

Nothing Mythical about it. Anyone offering to borrow more money at 1% per week after having already borrowed ~$200k USD and with a positive balance sheet appears to be a scam. I am willing to debate this with you. Please answer me the following question about your balance sheet:

Quote from: PatrickHarnett

July 2012 activity (updated 1 August 2012)
- 14 loans repaid (approx 7800BTC)
- 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
- 66 deposits (total approx 15400)
- deposits repaid during the month (at call) >3600

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

this seems to me that you claim to owe 19,700 BTC to current depositors.
you claim to have 37,100 BTC between cash / BTC / investments

Q: Why would you ever need to borrow another satoshi at 1% if you have 17,400 BTC profit ?

Hmmm...On the one hand we have Micon's unqualified opinions and on the other - a starfish with a masters degree in commerce. It's down to the wire but I think the starfish has the tiniest edge re. credibility.

PatrickHarnett

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Why would I require more deposits? Actually I don't.
Where are all of these other "riches"? It's no secret I have a BS&T account - the numbers shown covered everything. But Starfish deposits don't go there. I now also have Kraken to account for and have had 7Seas for a while. If I split them up, then it would be easy to hide things between accounts, so taking an overall picture was logical.

sadpandatech

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Quote from: Micon on September 02, 2012, 06:14:49 PM

Anyone offering to borrow more money at 1% per week after having already borrowed ~$200k USD and with a positive balance sheet appears to be a scam.

Where do you calculate this vast richness from?
If he borrows at 1% and lends out at 2% per week then he would have profit of;
$200,000 ^ .01 = $2000

That's not quite enough to retire on. And is likely barely enough to invest much more time in than what he does now.

Not even sure where you got 200k from;

For July we see;
- 14 loans repaid (approx 7800BTC)
- 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
- 66 deposits (total approx 15400)

if we calculate it on 1% borrowing percent and 2% lending % per week.
- 14 loans repaid (approx 7800BTC) brought in 624BTC for the month
and
- 66 deposits (total approx 15400) got paid out 616BTC for the month

Leaving the Lending institution with a gain of 8BTC from loans

sadpandatech

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Activity: 504

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Quote from: Micon on September 02, 2012, 06:14:49 PM

Q: Why would you ever need to borrow another satoshi at 1% if you have 17,400 BTC profit ?

Where did you come up with his net assets being labeled as 'profit' from this;

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

Micon

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Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 02, 2012, 03:17:13 PM

I thought it would be useful to seek some clarification about what it would take for Starfish to achieve the mythical Micon seal of approval. What that turned out to be was essentially revealing the details of every piece of business that I transact in bitcoinland.

Nothing Mythical about it. Anyone offering to borrow more money at 1% per week after having already borrowed ~$200k USD and with a positive balance sheet appears to be a scam. I am willing to debate this with you. Please answer me the following question about your balance sheet:

Quote from: PatrickHarnett

July 2012 activity (updated 1 August 2012)
- 14 loans repaid (approx 7800BTC)
- 32 loans current (approx 8800 BTC)
- 66 deposits (total approx 15400)
- deposits repaid during the month (at call) >3600

Total liabilities (Deposits + other commitments) = 19,700
Total assets (cash, BTC, investments) = 37,100
Net assets 17,400BTC

this seems to me that you claim to owe 19,700 BTC to current depositors.
you claim to have 37,100 BTC between cash / BTC / investments

Q: Why would you ever need to borrow another satoshi at 1% if you have 17,400 BTC profit ?

PatrickHarnett

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: sadpandatech on September 02, 2012, 05:25:21 PM

No worries here, m8. Like you, I'm a big boy and contrary to what some of the more rabid 'white knights' may believe, there are a lot more highly intelligent peoples around here who can maths and stuffs than they give the community credit for. ;p I'll admit I suck at 'Log' math though. Stuff makes me wanna gouge my eyeballs out. =)

I had trouble with partial derivatives so fail comp methods, but I did pass my 1st year calculus and thought the algebra paper deserved a better mark. So only ended up with an undergrad science degree (double in Statistics and Computer Science) and post grad commerce degree (Operations Research). But, I'm just a starfish.

BTW - loan funds on their way.

sadpandatech

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Activity: 504

Merit: 500

No worries here, m8. Like you, I'm a big boy and contrary to what some of the more rabid 'white knights' may believe, there are a lot more highly intelligent peoples around here who can maths and stuffs than they give the community credit for. ;p I'll admit I suck at 'Log' math though. Stuff makes me wanna gouge my eyeballs out. =)

PatrickHarnett

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

Quote from: sadpandatech on September 02, 2012, 04:45:05 PM

Well, lets baffle them all some more. I am submitting a loan request to your inbox at an insane APR. ;p

Beware, you'll be accused of being a shill and encouraging children to lose their pocket money. Based on how BS&T people were treated, that is a risk for you (and others).

sadpandatech

hero member

Activity: 504

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Well, lets baffle them all some more. I am submitting a loan request to your inbox at an insane APR. ;p

PatrickHarnett

hero member

Activity: 518

Merit: 500

I would like to apologise for the crap in the lending section. I thought it would be useful to seek some clarification about what it would take for Starfish to achieve the mythical Micon seal of approval. What that turned out to be was essentially revealing the details of every piece of business that I transact in bitcoinland. Despite the fact that it doesn't all take place in the blockchain, and providing a couple of references, my concern that they would focus on any gaps was rapidly confirmed. I do not think exposing customer details in such a blatant way is a good idea and so I've given up on that for now and will let those that think I have poor judgement and am running a scam continue to believe so.

Also of interest, I exchanged pm's with nrd525 regarding his nine-point checklist for ponzi spotting. I was applying it to my Kraken Fund and entities like a real bank or a corporate like Apple. I considered it would be useful if he provided an assessment. I received a nice reply which, other than saying he wouldn't like to be associated with me, where he asked a couple of sensible questions that I answered for him. Apparently I baffle him doing what I do here.

salty

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Quote from: sadpandatech on September 02, 2012, 12:23:07 PM

Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 01, 2012, 05:53:07 PM

Please note the discussion and in particular the following assessment at: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1153048

I'm going to be nice and just leave it at this. That guy has serious issues and his motives are any thing but trying to look out or anyone but number 1.

You can't look at APR when loans are on a weekly or monthly scale.

He intentionally left out that you have stopped deposits when the market got too volatile when using that as a reason to state another lender was legit.

Sadly, I just don't have the energy to go put it straight. It's disturbing to see some others there eating out of his palm with the severe lack of any technical analysis of the short term industry.

One more to add to my ignore list is all.

Might be helpful if you have more of your borrowers come in here and post in the thread that they are borrowing at 2% per week and happy to do so. I think it will be a long time in the Bitcoin world before it is feasible to not have MPR = to real world APR. That is how I consider it because of the quick turn over nature of BTC. In the future it will need to be adjusted and I'm fairly sure that it will be those who are much more adept in finance than Micon that will know whne that should be.

That is all.

cheers,
Panda

+1 sorry for the massive quote I'm on my phone, but Micoin seems to be deliberately ignoring the fact that the basis of this lending is very short term loans, whilst mentioning sealswithclubs at every opportunity. I wonder what *he* is up to.

sadpandatech

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Quote from: PatrickHarnett on September 01, 2012, 05:53:07 PM

Please note the discussion and in particular the following assessment at: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1153048

I'm going to be nice and just leave it at this. That guy has serious issues and his motives are any thing but trying to look out or anyone but number 1.

You can't look at APR when loans are on a weekly or monthly scale.

He intentionally left out that you have stopped deposits when the market got too volatile when using that as a reason to state another lender was legit.

Sadly, I just don't have the energy to go put it straight. It's disturbing to see some others there eating out of his palm with the severe lack of any technical analysis of the short term industry.

One more to add to my ignore list is all.

Might be helpful if you have more of your borrowers come in here and post in the thread that they are borrowing at 2% per week and happy to do so. I think it will be a long time in the Bitcoin world before it is feasible to not have MPR = to real world APR. That is how I consider it because of the quick turn over nature of BTC. In the future it will need to be adjusted and I'm fairly sure that it will be those who are much more adept in finance than Micon that will know when that should be.

That is all.

cheers,
Panda

Topic: Starfish BCB - Loans and Deposits - page 23. (Read 60537 times)