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Topic: Stateless societies and bitcoin - page 2. (Read 3043 times)

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 09, 2016, 09:06:37 PM
#52

Well, I guess it isn't going anywhere.
Your words: "But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for?"
And mine in a more precise way: it makes no difference if you want to open a bank account for a trust or a company-owned trust. It's the same thing, only with an extra level added.

Back to the subject, I don't think a trust could be of any use in a stateless society.


Quite the contrary. Trusts are in use all over the place all the time.

The meanest dictator can't run a nation alone. He has to trust some people sometime. And they have to trust him. That's why they write their "planks" down.

Cool

EDIT: There can never be a stateless society. The smallest state might be the family. But if there was no state, there would be no society.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
June 09, 2016, 06:44:20 PM
#51
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 08, 2016, 07:13:30 PM
#50
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
June 08, 2016, 06:50:35 PM
#49
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
★YoBit.Net★ 350+ Coins Exchange & Dice
June 08, 2016, 04:51:41 AM
#48
In my opinion bitcoin is designed for everyone not just for Stateless societies. I believe that bitcoin is made because of one goal, and that is to ease the hassle in paying online.  Grin
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 07, 2016, 09:58:41 PM
#47
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
June 07, 2016, 06:27:27 PM
#46
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 07, 2016, 03:15:41 PM
#45

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.



However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

Cool

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.


They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    Cool

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).


In general, a trust is the cheapest thing in the world. For example. You go over to your girlfriend's place. She is fixing a snack in the kitchen, while you are tuning the game in on TV. She comes to you with a bag of cat food in her hands. She holds out the cat food to you and says, "Will you please feed Kitty while I am working in the kitchen?" You say, "Yes," and accept the cat food from her.

You have a simple, common law trust going. She is the creator. You are the trustee. Kitty is the beneficiary.

Now, all you need to do is write it all down, add some words to it that express not only the job at hand - feeding the cat - but all kinds of other things you can do in the "name" of the trust... like set up bank accounts, buy property, accept donations, you name it.

In civil law countries - like most of Europe - you need to know the law regarding some of the things that you can do. But in the U.K. (like in Canada and the U.S. and Australia) you can simply state that the trust is made under English Common Law predating 1800, and you can add anything to it that you want, as long as it does not intentionally speak to harm someone or damage his property. If the trust states that the creator and you are the only people that have anything to do with the trust, the trust is property of yours (proper to you) and the legal codes do not apply as long as you enforce the property rights of the trust against government if they come after you in the courts.

Simple as that. However, this does not mean that the banks have to honor the trust and set up a bank account in the name of the trust if you ask for it. But the trust can own a corporation or LLC which the banks WILL honor setting up accounts for.

Here is a copy of a simple, English Common Law trust. I suggest that you DON'T use it as is. If you are going to use it, read it through, and make it stronger by adding words that limit government's ability to attack it. For example, you might want to add the words somewhere, "It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee that the income of this trust remain untaxed to the trust, trustee or the Beneficiary(ies)."
Quote
TWENTY YEAR REVERSIONARY SIMPLE TRUST

Date:                                              

TRUST AGREEMENT BETWEEN:

(Creator) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:

and

(Trust) Name:
Mailing Location:
City:
State:
(Trustee) Name:

The creator hereby conveys, assigns, transfers, and delivers to the trustee the sum of One (1) United States Silver Dollar (Silver Eagle) and such other assets and property as now and in the future may be so transferred as described in Schedule A, attached hereto and made a part hereof, the receipt of which the Trustee hereby acknowledges, and to have to hold the said property, hereinafter called the Trust Estate, unto the Trustee in trust for the purposes and terms as set forth below.

   Beneficiary: This trust is established for the benefit of

INVESTMENT- MANAGEMENT: The Trustee, or its General manager assigns, shall invest and reinvest the Trust Estate in its discretion, without regard for any law prescribing or limiting the investment powers of fiduciaries, in any security, but not limited to Stocks, Commodities, Precious Metals, Mutual Funds, Real estate, Bank CD's and L/C's, Warehouse and Elevator Receipts, Stamps, Waybills, Options, Commercial Paper, Accounts Receivable, Royalty and Limited Partnership Interests, Copyrights, Patents, Requests Anticipated, etc.

PURCHASE AND SALE OF SECURITIES: Capital assets and securities may be purchased on the installment sales basis at the Trustee's discretion.  Commercial paper securities may be sold at any price, i.e. at, above or below cost at the sole discretion of the Trustee or its assigns. Investments may be HYPOTHECATED and loaned out, and Monies can be borrowed.

BANKING:  Regular checking, saving, thrift and other saving accounts may be opened, maintained, and closed at the discretion of the Trustee or its assigns.  The Trustee or its assigns may appoint third party bookkeepers to manage, deposit, and withdraw from said accounts.

FORMATION AND PROTECTION:  This trust is formed under English Common Law.

LEGAL STATUS AND VALIDITY:  The validity of this Trust is subject to the courts of its Situs.

DONORS AND SELLERS:  Anyone may donate assets to this Trust, and anyone may sell assets to this Trust.  Upon termination of this Trust the Trustee or its assigns shall pay to the Donors the then current value of their Donations, or to the Donor's Estate.  Settlers who have the right of first refusal under a Buy/Sell Agreement may exercise their rights at any time the Trust remains in operation or as long as the Trust's Successor remains in operation.

DISTRIBUTION AND TERMINATION:  The Trustee or its assigns shall distribute all net income to the Beneficiary or on its behalf for a period of twenty (20) years from the date of this agreement, at which time it may be renewed with a new Agreement.  It is the intent of the Creator and the Trustee to so renew unless stated by them otherwise.

POUR-OVER AUTHORITY:  For the purpose of renewing this Agreement, the assets of the existing Agreement may be "poured-over" into the Renewable Agreement by the Trustee.

LAW SUITS:  This Trust shall settle, compromise, pursue, and/or oppose law suits, fines, liens, levies, assessments, purported claims for debts, libel, etc. by both public and private parties and agencies.

TAXES:  The Trustee is to pay all properly due taxes and to file all properly due tax returns.  This Trust shall be properly operated as a "Simple Trust" and distributes all net income to its legal Beneficiary.

TRUSTEE WAGES:  The trust shall pay the Trustee "a reasonable wage".  A reasonable wage is defined as: payment of all of Trustee's expenses, including but not limited to, all living expenses.  Additional wages may also be provided for Trustee services.

OUTSIDE HELP AND ADVICE:  The Trustee or its assigns may utilize outside consultants, brokers, attorneys, accountants, appraisers, custodians, employees, independent contractors, and pay them compensation as the Trustee may deem advisable.

BONDS AND FEES:  The Trustee or its assigns may transfer, assign, mortgage, apply and remove liens on property, perfect title, and furnish copies of bills of sale, deeds, trust indentures, corporate charters, resolutions, and such other legal paperwork as may be necessary to effect legal change of ownership of real estate property.  Trustee may serve without Bond or Fees.

OWNERSHIP TITLE:  Title to assets may be held in the name of this Trust, the names of the Trustee or its assigns, in street name, or in bearer name.  Any monies received by an agent-nominee for and on behalf of this Trust shall not be considered to have been constructively received by said nominee-agent, but shall accrue solely for the benefit and legal ownership of this Trust.

TRUSTEE RESIGNATION OR DEPARTURE:  Should the Trustee resign, cease to exist, or depart for any reason, the successor Trustee shall be                                                                per schedule B of this agreement.

IRREVOCABLE:  This Trust is irrevocable and cannot be changed, revoked, or terminated of even blocked by the Creator, Trustee, or Beneficiary.  No other parties are legally associated.


IN WITNESS WHEREOF, said Creator and Trustee have hereto set their respective hands and Seals.

(CREATOR)

BY                                                                    DATE
Creator

(TRUSTEE)

BY                                                                    DATE
Trustee

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
June 06, 2016, 06:46:39 PM
#44

Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.



However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

Cool

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.


They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    Cool

A trust is never cheap. You may also consider that you cannot do anything you want with one. In most European countries, it's impossible to buy a property under the name of some company in Panama, you 'll have to set up a local company with a known legal owner (who can be a lawyer).
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 06, 2016, 06:38:54 PM
#43

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?



Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.



However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

Cool

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.


They come in all sizes with all kinds of fees.    Cool
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
June 06, 2016, 06:33:46 PM
#42

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?



Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.



However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

Cool

I suggest you find a picture of the Mossack Fonseca building in Panama. My little finger tells me that lawyers who have their offices in a great building like they have command very high fees.

Regarding stateless people, there are unfortunately millions of them in the world, and I'm very happy not to be one of them. BTC is totally useless to them, just like a microwave oven. I'm sure they've never heard of it.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 06, 2016, 09:59:28 AM
#41

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?



Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.



I thought you are a stateless person as Stateless ex-American Mike Gogulski currently living in Slovakia. Now I realize you are not. You have a citizenship from some country and also have a passport. And with this passport you can invest real estate in Europe. But in this thread we are talking about stateless people and usage of BTC as a stateless person like Mike Gogulski and some 10k other people. So you are not fitting in this category. But anyway thanks for your input and we are keen to listen your own experiences on the field of profitable real estate investment in the European region in another thread, maybe you can start one of it.

If a person has a birth certificate, the BC belongs to an artificial entity created by government at the time of his birth. This entity is a trust, essentially. This trust holds the passport. The person simply says that he is the trust/entity, and the ignorant authorities believe him. See http://www.abodia.com/ucc/.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
ancap
June 05, 2016, 09:29:46 PM
#40

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?



Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.



I thought you are a stateless person as Stateless ex-American Mike Gogulski currently living in Slovakia. Now I realize you are not. You have a citizenship from some country and also have a passport. And with this passport you can invest real estate in Europe. But in this thread we are talking about stateless people and usage of BTC as a stateless person like Mike Gogulski and some 10k other people. So you are not fitting in this category. But anyway thanks for your input and we are keen to listen your own experiences on the field of profitable real estate investment in the European region in another thread, maybe you can start one of it.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 05, 2016, 07:01:10 PM
#39

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?



Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.



However, there are people set up in many countries who will do it for you for a much smaller fee. Ever heard of the Panama Papers?

Cool
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
June 05, 2016, 06:17:31 PM
#38

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?



Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool

A corporation? A trust? That cost thousands to set up, and hundreds each year to keep it going. It's much cheaper to buy as an individual. You need a passport, but most people have one, me included. I hate to say it, but a passport is a must-have in this world. You can't travel without one. Fortunately, if having one means you're a citizen, you're not required to act like one, and that's what I do.

legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
June 05, 2016, 11:26:30 AM
#37

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?



Use a corporation or a trust from that country. For more info, visit http://www.liveandinvestoverseas.com/ and https://internationalliving.com/.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
ancap
June 05, 2016, 07:03:22 AM
#36

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?

But how do you invest in real estate in Europe without a citizenship of a country?

legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
June 05, 2016, 06:33:11 AM
#35
Blogs are the way a lot of people get a business going,take that 4 hour work week guy and his books. He used his blog as a launching pad and never looked back. Its pretty similar if you have a whole wack of tricks to navigate on the cheap through Europe.
Think of all the kids wanting to do Europe as their first vacation trip,they would definitely be looking into those concepts.

Well, sorry, I don't know much tricks about to travel on a budget, and I doubt any youngster would be interested in what I know.

Selling some knowledge.... But how?

That's what consultants are doing, and I've done it many times, in other fields from what we're talking here, though. I could write a guide about how and where to invest in real estate in Europe. I've already started that project actually. It's currently on hold, because of other priorities, but I hope to complete it this summer. Anyone interested?
sr. member
Activity: 471
Merit: 250
June 04, 2016, 08:55:16 AM
#34
I guess Bitcoin is not suitable for that. It's just pseudonymus so given that current nation states are overthrown and BTC exists as the main store of value everyone with a computer could determine everyones ownings...
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 250
ancap
June 04, 2016, 04:38:02 AM
#33
You should start a blog countryfree,I would be interested to see the issues you struggle with day to day.
Its funny last night I did a search for living off the grid,from time to time I romanticize trying it.
Lot more people doing this then I was expecting and always presumed people ended up in Asia or South America to extend their money flow but seems to be a lot of people doing it just outside of towns.

Have a cabin on a lake and I often think about getting away for a winter even though it would be damned cold,just to refocus on whats important.

I don't struggle!
I've thought many times about selling some knowledge I have that few people possess, but it certainly won't be a blog where everything would be free to read.

Selling some knowledge.... But how?
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