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Topic: Switzerland to vote on $2,800 monthly ‘basic income’ for adults (Read 8013 times)

full member
Activity: 162
Merit: 100
the elderly needs more than anyone else, maybe its thier way saying thanks to the elderly for if it weren't for them they wouldn't be there too.
elderly needs medicine from time to time. its the least that they can do. the y0oung ones will benefit later when they grow old.

Is it about age? If anything it's discriminatory towards the elderly because funds that might otherwise be put towards those aforementioned services are being directed to everyone equally
legendary
Activity: 3178
Merit: 1054
the elderly needs more than anyone else, maybe its thier way saying thanks to the elderly for if it weren't for them they wouldn't be there too.
elderly needs medicine from time to time. its the least that they can do. the y0oung ones will benefit later when they grow old.
full member
Activity: 162
Merit: 100
Don't worry. This is what will happen when robots take over all the jobs.

Cool

We won't allow them to! Remember The Matrix, first they take all the jobs, next they take all the power. If we want to live like free humans we should do most of the jobs by ourselves.

Even when there are massive productivity gains to be had from automation? The same benefits of the first Industrial Revolution come with the fourth! But still I consider the requisite taxation to be theft
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 2198
I stand with Ukraine.
Don't worry. This is what will happen when robots take over all the jobs.

Cool

We won't allow them to! Remember The Matrix, first they take all the jobs, next they take all the power. If we want to live like free humans we should do most of the jobs by ourselves.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
Don't worry. This is what will happen when robots take over all the jobs.

Cool
sr. member
Activity: 254
Merit: 250
Wow!! a basic income for life! Then I wouldn't have to work anymore. That wouldn't work, after all, who would pay the politicians? Who do they think they are? USA?
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
looks like common sense has prevailed

Still, I am alarmed by the fact that more than 23% of the voters (568,905 out of 2,465,868) were in favor of the proposal. Also, the Swiss voters are not using their brains recently. A proposal to expel foreign criminals was rejected by an 18% margin recently. And the voters have approved a proposal to speed up the asylum applications.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_referendums,_2016
legendary
Activity: 1456
Merit: 1002
I need to promote this to every homeless person in LA to go to switzerland.

So we can actually have a decent state to pay less taxes.

But overall though, thats pretty absurd - if that was here in the US I`d fucken cry so hard.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1014
looks like common sense has prevailed
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 2198
I stand with Ukraine.
So, people in Switzerland rejected this proposal on national referendum.
I'm not surprise with such outcome.
They are hard working people and also very realistic.
They understand very well that ''there is no such thing as free lunch'' and that this money should come from somewhere, most likely from increased taxes.
People who suggested such idea didn't really explain from where they will collect money for ''basic income''.
We should inspire people to work and help them with jobs, not help them to stay at home and do nothing.




I absolutely agree with this. Doing nothing is not healthy for the person who is doing nothing in the first place. There would be a lot of suicides in a country with such monthly ‘basic income’. I'm glad the Swiss people rejected the stupid idea.
legendary
Activity: 3374
Merit: 1824
So, people in Switzerland rejected this proposal on national referendum.
I'm not surprise with such outcome.
They are hard working people and also very realistic.
They understand very well that ''there is no such thing as free lunch'' and that this money should come from somewhere, most likely from increased taxes.
People who suggested such idea didn't really explain from where they will collect money for ''basic income''.
We should inspire people to work and help them with jobs, not help them to stay at home and do nothing.


legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1027
So when this goes through and millions quit their jobs to live off this foolishness, where is the money supposed to come from??
More money gets wasted on war ..Where does all the money come from to build battle ships and what ever other weapon you could think of?...
And these companies are private. I take your tax money and buy my friends weapons he gives me a cut..I spend 1 billion on weapons that only cost 100 million the 900 million we will pay our selves the money and give the company that made them there 100 million plus a 100 million more as a bonus
because they all sold..
Now we can split the 800 million between all our top heads but i want 300 million because i am the boss and you can split the rest between the 30 managers..

1 billion got split between 31 people it was tax payers money
Money on weapons how does it help the poor or the roads or hospitals schools

But just think of this for every 1 billion spent on wasted government projects it can give
22000 people 40k for free so how many billion gets wasted on government projects..

Medicine Same drugs gone up as much as 1 thousand fold..
And why because i am in power and my friend owns a drug company and i get a cut on the profits he makes because i put the price up on these drugs.. Because we have to pay more because they need to do more research to find new drugs..lie lie lie...

All these billions wasted and not collected could go into trillions..

So just think for every billion wasted on government policies 22 THOUSAND PEOPLE Shocked could get 40k for free..SO COULD IT BE DONE?
One day it's got to happen robots will be used more than humans for work no doubt about it..
I thinks 10 years we will see many many with no jobs because of robots..

Plus why do politicians go to the bilderberg group,,TO MAKE MONEY ..I MAKE IT FOR MY COUNTRY..
BUT I MOSTLY MAKE IT FOR MYSELF...

Also a woman can have 10 kids and get 40k of the government for free right now ..
The more kids you have the more you get in the UK

legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1088
CryptoTalk.Org - Get Paid for every Post!
So when this goes through and millions quit their jobs to live off this foolishness, where is the money supposed to come from??

You've obviously not been reading the news - the Swiss REJECTED this initiative by 76.79% to 23.07%

Good for them.
legendary
Activity: 3906
Merit: 1373
So when this goes through and millions quit their jobs to live off this foolishness, where is the money supposed to come from??

Comes from the investments of many people who are into Swiss banking secrecy.

Also comes from the reason why Switzerland is the neutral nation of the world. The world (at least in the past) needed a worldwide postal-like system. This is what Switzerland is. That's why so many of the international agreements of the past were done in Geneva Switzerland.

Cool
xht
sr. member
Activity: 462
Merit: 250
hey you, yeah you, fuck you!!!
So when this goes through and millions quit their jobs to live off this foolishness, where is the money supposed to come from??
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1131
 
Basic income is not necessary yet but it will in the future to preserve social-peace when most humans will be obsolete.
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1027
Bad mistake by Switzerland it can be done..One day it will have to happen robots will take away many many jobs..Uber one day they wont need drivers no more self driving cars vans trucks taxis ..
Banks will get rid of loads of staff..

If you own a business and could get a robot to do the job 10 times faster and 10 times cheaper you would for profits..MONEY MONEY MONEY MAKES PEOPLE FUNNY IN A RICH MAN'S WORLD..

The more people out of a job the more crime FACT..
And it will be nasty crimes because things have got harder or worthless to rob steal..
Let me tell you what i mean..
Car thieves years ago..
You could break into a car steal it with another key or a screw driver jemmy bar scaffolding bar and drive the car or steal it's radio and sell it..Now when you done this crime you done it outside no one would get hurt except for the fact you been robbed..
Now because of new cars the radio no good because no one will buy it because every car got one in
as standard..Plus now you need the keys to drive the car away it's gone harder to rob a car without the keys..
So now people break into your home to just get your car keys making the crime go up many many many fold compared to when i was a kid just to rob a car..

You could sell a car radio for 35 pounds when i was a child.
You run up smashed the window with screw driver lean in car and pull radio out with screw driver..
All done in 10 seconds and your gone..Now kids need to break into your house rob straight off the person..So in this day and age to get money the kids need to do much more serious crime than kids of the past to make money..
Now what will happen when robots do most human jobs..CRIME WILL GO UP..NASTY CRIME..

Now lets break down how much a person can cost the tax payer because of his crime waves...

people who go to jail it cost 40k pounds a year to keep a person in prison..
court cost can go into hundreds of thousands for all these trials just for 1 person..
the amount to insurance companies because they have to pay out claims because house been broken in car robbed shop robbed bank robbed bike robbed claims because of damage..

1 thief can cost the tax payer at least 500k to the tax payer by the crime he does plus the tax payer got to support his family housing cost school medical bills and so on..

Most people get a roof over there heads and 50 pounds to live on if your claiming welfare..
How easy is it to live on 50 pounds a week? VERY VERY VERY HARD..So then they go and rob
Also it can make people depressed and they end up on drugs and drink ..then the bad crime comes then for drugs..

So if you look at life people who are poor can cost a lot more than 40k free a year...A hell of a lot more..
Now if people have a steady income knowing they get paid every week month so on they are more likely to do well in life..FACT..No worries in life then..Kids do well life becomes great..

What could happen is everyone gets it when you reach 21 years no matter if your in a job or not
And they will only pay if you have a baby in the 2 year breeding cycle

Just say it's 2018 when they start this system..Then when its 2020 they stop paying people who where born in 2021 and 2022..You can still have a child but you got to pay for it because you never had your child in the breeding cycle..Just keeps the population down from exploding..
Because most people would have there baby in the breeding cycle instead of every year so they qualify for the money..

even if your rich you still get the free money..everyone gets it..So the poor can live..

Also remember it's not the money that does the work it's human hands  Grin
soon to be robot hands..

Also you could do away with a lot of public services because no need for them every gets 40k

Also you and your partner don't get money for your children you paqy out your 40k each for your children ..they only get the money when they where born in the breeding cycle and must be 21


legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1001
minds.com/Wilikon



"Marxist Dream" Crushed - In Landslide Vote, Swiss Reject Proposal To Hand Out Free Money To Everyone







Opponents of the Swiss Basic Income Initiative demonstrate in front of parliament



This weekend the Swiss population was called upon to make a historic decision, when Switzerland became the first country worldwide to put the idea of free money for everyone, technically known as Unconditional Basic Income (of CHF2,500 per month for every adult man and woman, and CHF625 for every child, for doing absolutely nothing) to a vote.

As reported previously, the outcome of this referendum would set a strong precedent and establish a landmark in the evolution of the debate of handing out free money in a centrally-planned world. And as predicted, based on early vote projections it has been a landslide decision against the "free lunch."

According to BBC, some 78% of voters opposed the plan, a GFS projection for Swiss TV suggested. AFP adds that most Swiss vote in advance by post, so a large majority of ballots had already been counted, and gfs.bern put the margin of error at just plus/minus three percent.

Supporters said since work was increasingly automated, fewer jobs were available for workers. Switzerland is the first country to hold such a vote. No figure for the basic income had been set, but those behind the proposal suggested a monthly income of 2,500 Swiss francs (£1,755; $2,555) for adults and SFr625 for each child, reflecting the high cost of living in Switzerland. It is not clear how it would affect people on higher salaries.



Supporters of a basic income last month launched a giant poster campaign. The
poster unfortunately fails to ask “who is going to pay for it?”



"We are very happy," Ralph Kundig, one of the lead campaigners, told the ATS news agency. Supporters threw a party in Lausanne to celebrate the 22 percent of votes they had garnered. "One out of five people voted for the unconditional basic income, so that is a success in itself," Sergio Rossi, an economics professor and backer of the initiative, told ATS.

However, there was little support among Swiss politicians for the idea and not a single parliamentary party has come out in favour, but the proposal gathered more than 100,000 signatures and was therefore put to the vote under the Swiss popular initiative system.

Critics of the measure say that disconnecting the link between work done and money earned would be bad for society. But Che Wagner from the campaign group Basic Income Switzerland, says it wouldn't be money for nothing. "In Switzerland over 50% of total work that is done is unpaid. It's care work, it's at home, it's in different communities, so that work would be more valued with a basic income."

Luzi Stamm, who's a member of parliament for the right-wing Swiss People's Party, opposes the idea. "Theoretically, if Switzerland were an island, the answer is yes. But with open borders, it's a total impossibility, especially for Switzerland, with a high living standard," he says.

"If you would offer every individual a Swiss amount of money, you would have billions of people who would try to move into Switzerland."

Because, one you start handing out free lunches, everyone wants a piece of the pie...

Andreas Ladner, a political scientist at Lausanne University, told RTS the Swiss were "realistic" in their assessment of the UBI plan. Accepting that people can "be paid without having to work would have been a very big step" for the industrious Swiss, he said.

Critics have slammed the initiative as "a Marxist dream", warning of sky-high costs and people quitting their jobs in droves, causing economic chaos.

The wording on the initiative was vague, asking for a constitutional change to "guarantee the introduction of an unconditional basic income" but with no mention of amounts.

Switzerland may be the first but it won't be the last. The idea is also under consideration elsewhere. In Finland, the government is considering a trial to give basic income to about 8,000 people from low-income groups. And in the Dutch city of Utrecht is also developing a pilot project which will begin in January 2017.


The Free Lunch – A Fantasy as Old as Methuselah

The promise of a free lunch is by no means a new thing in politics. Getting “something for nothing” is an age-old shiny trinket that has been dangled before the eyes of the public since time immemorial. In fact, it has appeared so excruciatingly often in our political history, for centuries on end, that one would think that it wouldn’t work anymore; not in 2016, surely. And yet it does. UBI is the proof that there are still people who choose to believe that “no strings attached” freebies and gifts are promises one can rely on and build an economy on, especially when they are coming from their government and rulers.

However, there are always some strings attached to such gifts and if history has taught us anything on this matter, it is the distinction between a gift and a bribe. Unsavory political ideologies and catastrophic cultural philosophies often tend to make their debut in front of the public hidden inside a Trojan gift horse. Unrealistic yet enchanting promises have always been a reliable political tool and it has never been a big strategic challenge to corrupt the people by granting the majority something that was stolen from minorities.

The Cultural Argument for Collectivism

Key figures of the pro-UBI camp take pride in claiming that the main motivation behind the campaign is not economic but cultural. They say this proposal aims to make people think about the nature of life and work, it is a way to liberate them from the jobs they don’t like but need, a status which the scheme’s advocates, quite unhistorically, equate to the indignity of slavery. On top of this, they claim, UBI will help society survive the imminent unemployment apocalypse: they believe that with the help of automation and artificial intelligence 50% of all the existing jobs will be taken over within the coming decade by computers and machines.

Such an argument might sound superficially rational, but it goes deeper than that: It presupposes that we as human beings see ourselves downgraded and equated to a machine, like just another cog that can be replaced at any time, in a system where man is literally defined as a human resource.

The truth is that it is indeed a cultural debate, far more than it is an economic one. The only conceivable aim of such a factually unhinged and unfounded proposal can be to gauge the mind-set of the Swiss people in this moment in time. The outcome of this referendum can provide a valuable insight into the Swiss mentality, and whether the Swiss  actually prefer collectivism over individualism. Such a signal could serve as cue for a further escalation of government empowerment: After all, the collapsing centralized system is bound to show symptoms of desperation by “doubling down” and accelerating and maximizing its centralization efforts. Thus focusing on the symptoms and secondary effects is futile; a real difference can only be made by addressing the root cause, the system itself.

Despite the economic non-sequiturs and the plain Utopianism that lie at the core of the idea of a Universal Basic Income, the concept seems to be gaining popularity worldwide. Canada is set to conduct an experiment with this idea later this year. The city of Utrecht in the Netherlands is launching a pilot program, Finland is planning a two-year trial and a British proposal is gathering interest, while the nonprofit group Give Directly will start providing a guaranteed income to 6,000 Kenyans this month in a decade-long scheduled program and track the results. The idea seems to be gaining traction due to the Western Left’s efforts, however the polls in Switzerland are painting a dramatically different picture: the UBI initiative is projected to suffer a crushing defeat.

A Bastion of Liberty

The Swiss have been voting counter-intuitively for years: When they held a referendum for or against six weeks of vacation, or when they were called upon to vote for an initiative advocating fewer working hours, or even when they made their choice on the issue of the minimum wage, they always delivered outcomes that seemed surprising to the rest of the West, especially the rest of Europe. Up to now, the Swiss have consistently rejected interference by the state when it came to such topics and have refused to grant more powers to their government. Even in recent years, when the trend in favor of aggressive state expansionism seems to be stronger than ever, Switzerland appears to still hold the line as the last bastion of liberty that remains standing.

So what is so different about the Swiss then? Switzerland is indeed very different, because it became a nation by its peoples’ own will, based on limited government, strong private property rights and a direct democracy founded on the principles of subsidiarity. This has always required open dialogue and being exposed to different ideas and values: Vigorous debate itself leads to an enlightened society. Thus, the essential difference lies in the nation’s culture, mentality and philosophy.

The Swiss have grown up in an environment in which the people were always able to decide for themselves, but they also have a long tradition of doubt and of dissent. Every critical issue is discussed and decided by the people, the actions of government are subject to the judgment of and limited by the citizenry. All viewpoints are heard, even anti-establishment voices have their say, and critical thinking provides the basis for society’s future. However, this is only possible when people rely on their own mind to think about the issues individually and independently.

Switzerland is therefore quite a hostile terrain for those who wish to promote “free lunches” and “no strings attached” gifts. A long history of independent thinking, of consequential analysis and of government limitation, makes it very easy for the Swiss to see past the populism-fueled empty promises and the associated publicity stunts. The upcoming rejection of the UBI proposal on June the 5th will and should serve as a reminder that the Swiss still remain the exception to the rule.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-05/landslide-vote-swiss-reject-proposal-hand-out-free-money-everyone?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+zerohedge%2Ffeed+%28zero+hedge+-+on+a+long+enough+timeline%2C+the+survival+rate+for+everyone+drops+to+zero%29


newbie
Activity: 39
Merit: 0
This upcoming initiative is even better and can't happen soon enough:
http://www.vollgeld-initiative.ch/english.html?&L=1

Interesting turning.


No wonder the gang is trying to stifle the direct democracy mechanism with such prospects. And we get to see the true colours of most if not all political parties in Switzerland.

Plus a shift to full-reserve banking would make the "basic income" scheme feasible.
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1131
Is this the first country doing this?

Well, it depend to what extend.

In France you get this basic income:
$690.55 for a single person.
$1035.83 for a couple.
$1182.31 for a single with a kid.
(+$295.57 per kid)
+ at least $82.86 for your rent. Up to $205.10

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