Synthetic gold from LENR reactors could drive crypto to insane levels - page 4.

Lloydie

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Quote from: Cluster2k on March 06, 2014, 09:28:16 PM

Quote from: Lloydie on March 05, 2014, 08:00:35 PM

See Elforsk study and report in 2013. TLDR: they sent Sweden's top scientists to a lab controlled by the scientists to run the experiment.

Read the report here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/188229945/Elforsk-English-02-1

I am aware of Rossi's eCat and the recent testing. Do you know that Rossi recently sold his invention for just US$11.5 million? One of the world's most important inventions sold for relative peanuts. Doesn't make much sense, unless the device doesn't work and Rossi is grabbing the cash while there's still some confusion over whether it works at all.

The Swedish scientific study of the device was deeply flawed.

http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1306/1306.6364v1.pdf

The team seems to have set up elaborate IR measuring devices and made various assumptions along the way instead of directly measuring the amount of energy produced. Just because a study was done by Swedish scientists in a lab they controlled doesn't mean the experiment was done well without interference from Rossi:

"A major problem with this test is the many restrictions and conditions that seem to have been imposed by Rossi on the measurement group and their work. In our opinion, a truly independent test, even of a “black box” device, would mean work in our own laboratory, with our own equipment, with only written instructions (and possibly telephone support) by the “inventor”, with a measurement method of our own choosing etc."

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

Cite source for 11.5 m please. Also, provide evidence of rossi restrictions. Thanks.

Tzupy

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Wikipedia is biased against LENR / cold fusion. That's one of the reasons for which I stopped my yearly donations to Wikipedia.

Pd-D (Pons-Fleischmann) has been confirmed about 15 years ago by SPAWAR, and more recently by dozens of experimenters.

Ni-H (Rossi effect) looks promising, but I haven't yet read about successful LENR producing gold.

Even if synthetic gold would be produced en masse by LENR, this would have little to do with cryptocurrencies.

Xer0

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°^°

if with lenr you mean "cold fusion" then sorry to dissapoint you
wikipedia says that palladium-catalysed fusion was a fake/error
and myon based reactions dont yield excess energy

ElectricMucus

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Marketing manager - GO MP

Quote from: aminorex on March 08, 2014, 02:54:13 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on March 05, 2014, 02:44:31 PM

Not really to that extent. The amount of energy required is so large that no nuclear energy source can even theoretically make economically viable.

You might think so. But in fact, a fair bit of nickel has been turned into copper via low-energy reactions, releasing substantial heat in the process.
The only nucleus that can't be made to react in this way with a net energy surplus is iron. And that's not new physics.

While the process is not fully understood (there are competing theories, and no adequate experimental evidence allowing us to discriminate one as correct) it is clearly happening, quite usefully. Many of the same skeptical things said about LENR today could have been said about superconductivity a few decades ago, if there were a large entrenched big budget physics community which would suffer loss due to usable superconductivity. In neither case do the skeptical arguments change the experimental evidence.

The main roadblock to propagating LENR engines right now is their tendency to explode from time to time.

When using "in fact", I expect the debater to link me to a verifiable source where I can look at that 'fact'.

amencon

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Quote from: Cluster2k on March 06, 2014, 09:28:16 PM

Quote from: Lloydie on March 05, 2014, 08:00:35 PM

See Elforsk study and report in 2013. TLDR: they sent Sweden's top scientists to a lab controlled by the scientists to run the experiment.

Read the report here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/188229945/Elforsk-English-02-1

I am aware of Rossi's eCat and the recent testing. Do you know that Rossi recently sold his invention for just US$11.5 million? One of the world's most important inventions sold for relative peanuts. Doesn't make much sense, unless the device doesn't work and Rossi is grabbing the cash while there's still some confusion over whether it works at all.

The Swedish scientific study of the device was deeply flawed.

http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1306/1306.6364v1.pdf

The team seems to have set up elaborate IR measuring devices and made various assumptions along the way instead of directly measuring the amount of energy produced. Just because a study was done by Swedish scientists in a lab they controlled doesn't mean the experiment was done well without interference from Rossi:

"A major problem with this test is the many restrictions and conditions that seem to have been imposed by Rossi on the measurement group and their work. In our opinion, a truly independent test, even of a “black box” device, would mean work in our own laboratory, with our own equipment, with only written instructions (and possibly telephone support) by the “inventor”, with a measurement method of our own choosing etc."

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

I followed it (and Defkalion and others) for awhile but actually lost interest waiting for something concrete to happen shortly after that report came out. I suppose I haven't missed much if that's still the big go-to event being talked about.

aminorex

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Sine secretum non libertas

Quote from: ElectricMucus on March 05, 2014, 02:44:31 PM

Not really to that extent. The amount of energy required is so large that no nuclear energy source can even theoretically make economically viable.

You might think so. But in fact, a fair bit of nickel has been turned into copper via low-energy reactions, releasing substantial heat in the process.
The only nucleus that can't be made to react in this way with a net energy surplus is iron. And that's not new physics.

While the process is not fully understood (there are competing theories, and no adequate experimental evidence allowing us to discriminate one as correct) it is clearly happening, quite usefully. Many of the same skeptical things said about LENR today could have been said about superconductivity a few decades ago, if there were a large entrenched big budget physics community which would suffer loss due to usable superconductivity. In neither case do the skeptical arguments change the experimental evidence.

The main roadblock to propagating LENR engines right now is their tendency to explode from time to time.

bitleif

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I'm always grumpy in the morning.

Quote from: leopard2 on March 05, 2014, 12:27:23 PM

If gold has no value anymore, if no rare elements exist anymore, this will be a game changer because commodity money will be history, forever. The concept of intrinsic value will be gone.

No, the concept of money-value derived from scarcity of these materials will be gone, which just illustrates how silly that concept was in the first place. This would be just one step closer to the abundance society, which is a good thing. Many rare metals have industrial uses which could far outweigh their their silly use as money in terms of total value to the human race.

That assuming this tech is even feasible in the first place.

GreekBitcoin

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Quote from: Cluster2k on March 06, 2014, 09:28:16 PM

Quote from: Lloydie on March 05, 2014, 08:00:35 PM

See Elforsk study and report in 2013. TLDR: they sent Sweden's top scientists to a lab controlled by the scientists to run the experiment.

Read the report here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/188229945/Elforsk-English-02-1

I am aware of Rossi's eCat and the recent testing. Do you know that Rossi recently sold his invention for just US$11.5 million? One of the world's most important inventions sold for relative peanuts. Doesn't make much sense, unless the device doesn't work and Rossi is grabbing the cash while there's still some confusion over whether it works at all.

The Swedish scientific study of the device was deeply flawed.

http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1306/1306.6364v1.pdf

The team seems to have set up elaborate IR measuring devices and made various assumptions along the way instead of directly measuring the amount of energy produced. Just because a study was done by Swedish scientists in a lab they controlled doesn't mean the experiment was done well without interference from Rossi:

"A major problem with this test is the many restrictions and conditions that seem to have been imposed by Rossi on the measurement group and their work. In our opinion, a truly independent test, even of a “black box” device, would mean work in our own laboratory, with our own equipment, with only written instructions (and possibly telephone support) by the “inventor”, with a measurement method of our own choosing etc."

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

it makes much sence cause it was plain bullshit. i hope the alleged 11.5m $ didnt really happen else someone has got scammed...
its not how fusion works but certainly its not how science works by not letting other scientists examine thoroughly something like that.
furthermore Rossi was know for other minor scam trials many years ago...

P.S. if he had really succeed all he needed to do was patent his shit and upload it on the internet. he would have got much more money only from donatios. actually he could have been one of the best inventors the world had ever seen. he wouldnt even need money these days...instead he chose the classic way of a scammer...

Spaceman_Spiff

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Quote from: explorer on March 07, 2014, 03:20:43 PM

Quote from: Spaceman_Spiff on March 07, 2014, 02:32:57 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on March 06, 2014, 08:41:05 PM

Quote from: explorer on March 06, 2014, 08:30:18 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on March 05, 2014, 11:50:46 AM

We will be helpless cows, milked by inflation and rental payments.

Wrong, I think. Unless 'we' can actually be productive, we will more likely be landfill. Population reduction/resource conservation will be far more important to TPTB than paltry rents. As technology improves, the masses of the great unwashed will have less and less value to those with the power of extermination. With automated production of goods and many services, and near unlimited energy available, what possible value do YOU have? If you can't be exploited in some service or production capacity, you are a drain on resources. Look around and watch the world accelerate in that direction. 6 billion superfluous persons: goodbye. Everyone is familiar with the term 'bubble' these days. Human population: BUBBLE.

Ah you are an optimist; you think human cows (aka goyim) are not needed anymore and thus, will be sacrificed. But I disagree:

Government and rich sickos want to have power over people, not machines. Free energy does not lead to utopia, my friend, as long as people can, and want to, have power over other people. In fact it will make things worse. Governments usually abuse modern technology more efficiently than people can use it to protect themselves from that abuse.

Unless you inherit a house, you will live in a tent - a well heated one, of course.

He is not an optimist at all. He is projecting a m$therf*cking scary future in which most people are sacrificed (or stopped from reproducing?) because their services are no longer needed. You look at "wanting to have power over people" as a goal in itself, but where lies the utility of that?

The benefits of enormous populations lie in the use of the collective man power and/or brain power. As machines replace men, and computers replace brains, The meat popsicles have no use; in fact the opposite. Unless some Matrix like development can be implemented Cheesy

But we are all Cylons anyway, and it will all go around again Grin

But I am dragging this off topic, so I will leave my flights of fancy at that.

No I hear you, the scary part is that it sounds like a logical development. But a lot of variables will change between now and such a distant point in the future, hard to predict these kind of things. Better just go with the flow and enjoy life as it is without being too pessimistic Wink

.

explorer

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Quote from: Spaceman_Spiff on March 07, 2014, 02:32:57 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on March 06, 2014, 08:41:05 PM

Quote from: explorer on March 06, 2014, 08:30:18 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on March 05, 2014, 11:50:46 AM

We will be helpless cows, milked by inflation and rental payments.

Wrong, I think. Unless 'we' can actually be productive, we will more likely be landfill. Population reduction/resource conservation will be far more important to TPTB than paltry rents. As technology improves, the masses of the great unwashed will have less and less value to those with the power of extermination. With automated production of goods and many services, and near unlimited energy available, what possible value do YOU have? If you can't be exploited in some service or production capacity, you are a drain on resources. Look around and watch the world accelerate in that direction. 6 billion superfluous persons: goodbye. Everyone is familiar with the term 'bubble' these days. Human population: BUBBLE.

Ah you are an optimist; you think human cows (aka goyim) are not needed anymore and thus, will be sacrificed. But I disagree:

Government and rich sickos want to have power over people, not machines. Free energy does not lead to utopia, my friend, as long as people can, and want to, have power over other people. In fact it will make things worse. Governments usually abuse modern technology more efficiently than people can use it to protect themselves from that abuse.

Unless you inherit a house, you will live in a tent - a well heated one, of course.

He is not an optimist at all. He is projecting a m$therf*cking scary future in which most people are sacrificed (or stopped from reproducing?) because their services are no longer needed. You look at "wanting to have power over people" as a goal in itself, but where lies the utility of that?

The benefits of enormous populations lie in the use of the collective man power and/or brain power. As machines replace men, and computers replace brains, The meat popsicles have no use; in fact the opposite. Unless some Matrix like development can be implemented Cheesy

But we are all Cylons anyway, and it will all go around again Grin

But I am dragging this off topic, so I will leave my flights of fancy at that.

Spaceman_Spiff

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Quote from: leopard2 on March 06, 2014, 08:41:05 PM

Quote from: explorer on March 06, 2014, 08:30:18 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on March 05, 2014, 11:50:46 AM

We will be helpless cows, milked by inflation and rental payments.

Wrong, I think. Unless 'we' can actually be productive, we will more likely be landfill. Population reduction/resource conservation will be far more important to TPTB than paltry rents. As technology improves, the masses of the great unwashed will have less and less value to those with the power of extermination. With automated production of goods and many services, and near unlimited energy available, what possible value do YOU have? If you can't be exploited in some service or production capacity, you are a drain on resources. Look around and watch the world accelerate in that direction. 6 billion superfluous persons: goodbye. Everyone is familiar with the term 'bubble' these days. Human population: BUBBLE.

Ah you are an optimist; you think human cows (aka goyim) are not needed anymore and thus, will be sacrificed. But I disagree:

Government and rich sickos want to have power over people, not machines. Free energy does not lead to utopia, my friend, as long as people can, and want to, have power over other people. In fact it will make things worse. Governments usually abuse modern technology more efficiently than people can use it to protect themselves from that abuse.

Unless you inherit a house, you will live in a tent - a well heated one, of course.

He is not an optimist at all. He is projecting a m$therf*cking scary future in which most people are sacrificed (or stopped from reproducing?) because their services are no longer needed. You look at "wanting to have power over people" as a goal in itself, but where lies the utility of that?

shmadz

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@theshmadz

Quote from: ElectricMucus on March 05, 2014, 02:07:17 PM

Gold has only one stable isotope and as the current understanding of physics goes won't be possible to be created artificially on an economical viable basis. (The amount of energy required to do so prevents it)

Nuclear physics is a pretty mature field, almost like chemistry and it would mean a pretty drastic scientific paradigm shift if physics would be able to describe a process of arbitrary creating elements on a economical viable basis.
This company reeks of a typical investing scam, all complete with hoax(pseudo)science. If they had something they would have gone the way over academia and published a research paper.
Any of you guys remember Steorn?

I don't remember Steorn, but I thought the cavitation stuff was kind of interesting (in terms of transmutation of matter and stuff)

I still think that LFTR (liquid fluoride thorium reactors) are the way to go for abundant energy.

Cluster2k

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Quote from: Lloydie on March 05, 2014, 08:00:35 PM

See Elforsk study and report in 2013. TLDR: they sent Sweden's top scientists to a lab controlled by the scientists to run the experiment.

Read the report here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/188229945/Elforsk-English-02-1

I am aware of Rossi's eCat and the recent testing. Do you know that Rossi recently sold his invention for just US$11.5 million? One of the world's most important inventions sold for relative peanuts. Doesn't make much sense, unless the device doesn't work and Rossi is grabbing the cash while there's still some confusion over whether it works at all.

The Swedish scientific study of the device was deeply flawed.

http://arxiv.org/vc/arxiv/papers/1306/1306.6364v1.pdf

The team seems to have set up elaborate IR measuring devices and made various assumptions along the way instead of directly measuring the amount of energy produced. Just because a study was done by Swedish scientists in a lab they controlled doesn't mean the experiment was done well without interference from Rossi:

"A major problem with this test is the many restrictions and conditions that seem to have been imposed by Rossi on the measurement group and their work. In our opinion, a truly independent test, even of a “black box” device, would mean work in our own laboratory, with our own equipment, with only written instructions (and possibly telephone support) by the “inventor”, with a measurement method of our own choosing etc."

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

leopard2

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Quote from: explorer on March 06, 2014, 08:30:18 PM

Quote from: leopard2 on March 05, 2014, 11:50:46 AM

We will be helpless cows, milked by inflation and rental payments.

Wrong, I think. Unless 'we' can actually be productive, we will more likely be landfill. Population reduction/resource conservation will be far more important to TPTB than paltry rents. As technology improves, the masses of the great unwashed will have less and less value to those with the power of extermination. With automated production of goods and many services, and near unlimited energy available, what possible value do YOU have? If you can't be exploited in some service or production capacity, you are a drain on resources. Look around and watch the world accelerate in that direction. 6 billion superfluous persons: goodbye. Everyone is familiar with the term 'bubble' these days. Human population: BUBBLE.

Ah you are an optimist; you think human cows (aka goyim) are not needed anymore and thus, will be sacrificed. But I disagree:

Government and rich sickos want to have power over people, not machines. Free energy does not lead to utopia, my friend, as long as people can, and want to, have power over other people. In fact it will make things worse. Governments usually abuse modern technology more efficiently than people can use it to protect themselves from that abuse.

Unless you inherit a house, you will live in a tent - a well heated one, of course.

explorer

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Activity: 2016

Merit: 1259

Quote from: leopard2 on March 05, 2014, 11:50:46 AM

We will be helpless cows, milked by inflation and rental payments.

Wrong, I think. Unless 'we' can actually be productive, we will more likely be landfill. Population reduction/resource conservation will be far more important to TPTB than paltry rents. As technology improves, the masses of the great unwashed will have less and less value to those with the power of extermination. With automated production of goods and many services, and near unlimited energy available, what possible value do YOU have? If you can't be exploited in some service or production capacity, you are a drain on resources. Look around and watch the world accelerate in that direction. 6 billion superfluous persons: goodbye. Everyone is familiar with the term 'bubble' these days. Human population: BUBBLE.

leopard2

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So tungsten is a long term buy? But how?

Hehe I am sure the Arabs have some really juicy reserach power directed at this LENR thing and how to hedge against it ...

af_newbie

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Quote from: worldtreasurefinders on March 05, 2014, 02:53:03 PM

Quote from: IIOII on March 05, 2014, 02:42:11 PM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on March 05, 2014, 02:07:17 PM

Gold has only one stable isotope and as the current understanding of physics goes won't be possible to be created artificially on an economical viable basis. (The amount of energy required to do so prevents it)

The treshold of "economical viability" may change with time.

If you want to hold precious metals for 30+ years: Better buy silver.

Exactly. What if in 10 years gold is $5k/oz and this technology begins pumping out gold at a cost of $4k? The number one reason people buy and hold gold is that it can't be printed and devalued like gov't money. Once they can "print" gold with these machines, what happens next? In that case, I agree with the OP that virtual "gold and silver" (BTC and LTC) will be the only thing left that can fill the vacuum left by the loss of confidence in physical precious metals.

Tungsten will at $2K/oz, gold at $4K+/oz. Nobody will be producing (assuming the process can produce stable gold, I'm not convinced it can) something at a loss.

DigitalHermit

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Thank you! Thank you! ...

Another scenario that may be more likely/viable than LENR is mining Gold from asteroids:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2012/04/planetary-resources-asteroid-mining/

GreekBitcoin

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getmonero.org

its easier to extract gold from oceans or even better from old mine waste than from nuclear reactors...

Lloydie

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Quote from: Cluster2k on March 05, 2014, 07:17:59 PM

LENR has so far not been proven to work, in scientifically controlled environments replicated in more than one laboratory. At the moment we're still at the 'this kind of works, sometimes, but I can't get my colleagues to replicate the experiments and get the same findings'. We've been here for 25 years now.

We've known how to create gold from mercury for decades. It requires a particular isotope of mercury, ends up producing radioactive gold, and is much more expensive than just digging gold out of the ground. Maybe LENR will change that, maybe not.

LENR promises (for 25 years now) to change the world through cheap, unlimited energy production. Whether or not it makes gold as well is almost irrelevant. Certainly it has no impact on bitcoin whatsoever.

See Elforsk study and report in 2013. TLDR: they sent Sweden's top scientists to a lab controlled by the scientists to run the experiment.

Read the report here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/188229945/Elforsk-English-02-1

Topic: Synthetic gold from LENR reactors could drive crypto to insane levels - page 4. (Read 14938 times)