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Topic: Taproot proposal - page 13. (Read 11516 times)

legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1422
May 06, 2021, 10:24:45 AM
46.80%, https://taproot.watch/miners

How much time does it typically take before those other miners start to signal for an upgrade? Do they take their time until the last, maybe 500 blocks, before we see 90%? Or can anyone tell that for this round, it is slow?
Just wild guessing: smaller pools want to wait until the end only to be able to then unlock the upgrade and be remembered before going back to the void  Grin
Anyway, if that's the case about having separate locations, they need to get the ball rolling and start signalling everywhere they operate.
I'm hoping Jimmy Song was right about Thanksgiving...
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1293
There is trouble abrewing
May 06, 2021, 09:19:21 AM
big mining pools always have more than one server that are located in separate locations so they operate separately also. sometimes their coinbase transactions also includes the name of that particular server alongside the name of the pool (something like Antpool.Server1, Antpool.Server2). this is why some of their blocks have the change and are signalling while others don't.
they did the same thing during segwit activation in 2017.
sr. member
Activity: 438
Merit: 291
May 06, 2021, 09:11:28 AM
I don't understand what is Poolin doing. They signal Taproot in certain blocks and don't signal it on other blocks.

Seems a lot of pools are doing that. There was even one block from btc.com that did signal - all others did not.

I like you assume they have multiple setups and have only partially upgraded - and btc.com was just a test before putting live?

As you say this period is already a no. And next is looking unlikely unless the other 4 big pools upgrade and the existing ones that are signalling start signalling with all their bocks in the next few days.

90% is a high threshold - so unless we are up to almost 90% at the start of the next period on 13th (ish) May unlikely to lock in during that period either.
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
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May 06, 2021, 08:37:33 AM

I don't understand what is Poolin doing. They signal Taproot in certain blocks and don't signal it on other blocks.
I guess that they have more than one pool and not all those are upgraded in the same way, but I still find it odd...

How much time does it typically take before those other miners start to signal for an upgrade? Do they take their time until the last, maybe 500 blocks, before we see 90%? Or can anyone tell that for this round, it is slow?

Switch to the main tab and it'll tell that we're already late for this 2016 blocks period, since over 90% of the blocks should be signaled and it's not longer possible.
Somehow we should rise awareness, maybe more pools join before the next difficulty period.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 06, 2021, 08:27:40 AM
46.80%, https://taproot.watch/miners

How much time does it typically take before those other miners start to signal for an upgrade? Do they take their time until the last, maybe 500 blocks, before we see 90%? Or can anyone tell that for this round, it is slow?
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
May 06, 2021, 05:34:01 AM
This is perhaps ignoring the forest for the trees, those distinguishable lightning txn are relatively uncommon.

yep, i mentioned that


It's hard to reason about all the benefits because it also makes possible some things that aren't possible today so we don't know how common or how valuable they'd be.  For scripts with a compatible structure taproot increases the maximum script size a factor of 10^43 or so...   If you happened to know a pubkey for every resident of california you could make an output with taproot that could be claimed by any of them.  The signature would just be a few hundred bytes.   Without taproot that would take a 1.3GB transaction.

strangely, Taproot re-defines what "the script" actually means. In your example, which is the script? The whole tree, paying to any pubkey of every californian, or the script that gets redeemed on the blockchain? A taproot script is potentially an entire litter of Schrodingers scripts, only one of which becomes an observable cat on the blockchain o_O

the answer is, of course, that there is a "script tree" and an executed "script leaf", where the script tree is never publicly known.
staff
Activity: 4242
Merit: 8672
May 05, 2021, 05:32:57 PM
it's only going to be the 'base case'/'cooperative case' that will become indistinguishable, e.g. Lightning channel opening transactions and cooperatively closed channels, because Schnorr "additivity" (which is not a real word Tongue) makes such transactions appear the same as a regular [1 (or more) inputs -> 2 outputs] tx, because there is only 1 aggregated signature (because additive signatures, despite 2 parties signing the tx). Currently, spending outputs from that kind of transaction reveals it to be a 2 of 2 multisig that had alternate script paths, not so with the same tx script using Taproot/schnorr.

This is perhaps ignoring the forest for the trees, those distinguishable lightning txn are relatively uncommon.  2 of 3 multisig and various multisig or timeout keys are about half of all transactions.   Taproot should eventually allow most of those to look just like single key wallets.  It'll also let users improve their security by using multisig without increasing their fees or making their transactions stand out at all.

It's hard to reason about all the benefits because it also makes possible some things that aren't possible today so we don't know how common or how valuable they'd be.  For scripts with a compatible structure taproot increases the maximum script size a factor of 10^43 or so...   If you happened to know a pubkey for every resident of california you could make an output with taproot that could be claimed by any of them.  The signature would just be a few hundred bytes.   Without taproot that would take a 1.3GB transaction.
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
May 05, 2021, 08:26:31 AM
Possibly another stupid question from me here, but can the Lightning Network then be leveraged as a use case for tumbling/mixing/hiding our UTXOs after the upgrade?

It's already possible. The real advantage of Taproot on LN is hiding other condition of the HTLC which isn't executed.

The only downside is that you must leave the channel reserve in a channel.


Workflow is as follows:

1. Open 2 Lightning nodes; one with outgoing liquidity and the other with an equal amount of incoming liquidity (minus the 1% reserve + ln fees)
2. Send everything from the node with 100% outgoing to the 100% incoming node

You just did an ad-hoc Coinswap over lightning.

n.b. I think eltoo channels remove the reserve requirement, so that would mean you could perform this without the "loose end" constituted by the reserve balance left over on one node


However, a 'real' coinswap is better. It's probably less traceable (at least than HTLC based Coinswap-over-LN) and the LN technnique might spark a trend of people closing both channels and both nodes once they finish the swap (which is a little anti-social, payment channels are intended to be long lived).
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1422
May 05, 2021, 06:47:10 AM
I can't wait for improved fungibility, better tx speed, increasingly difficult analytics and indistinguishable transactions.

this case is overstated


it's only going to be the 'base case'/'cooperative case' that will become indistinguishable, e.g. Lightning channel opening transactions and cooperatively closed channels, because Schnorr "additivity" (which is not a real word Tongue) makes such transactions appear the same as a regular [1 (or more) inputs -> 2 outputs] tx, because there is only 1 aggregated signature (because additive signatures, despite 2 parties signing the tx). Currently, spending outputs from that kind of transactions reveals it to be a 2 of 2 multisig that had alternate script paths, not so with the same script using Taproot/schnorr.

But ,uncooperative closes are still distinguishable from the regular [1+ in -> 2 out] transactions, because of the atypical script they use will (necessarily) be revealed if they are broadcast/confirmed in a block. I know, uncooperative channel closures are not common, but they will still sometimes happen when using Taproot/schnorr based channels/contracts.

And so, all other atypical scripts will still be distinguishable from regular transactions too. It's just nice that the construction of many contracts involve using the [1+ in -> 2 out] regular pattern as the base case.
I love new words, mainly if the are not real ones.  Cheesy
Always great to have your take on all things bitcoin, much appreciated. You clarified that very nicely.

Possibly another stupid question from me here, but can the Lightning Network then be leveraged as a use case for tumbling/mixing/hiding our UTXOs after the upgrade?
Isn't it that way already?  Cool
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 05, 2021, 06:41:42 AM
Possibly another stupid question from me here, but can the Lightning Network then be leveraged as a use case for tumbling/mixing/hiding our UTXOs after the upgrade?
legendary
Activity: 3430
Merit: 3080
May 05, 2021, 05:49:54 AM
I can't wait for improved fungibility, better tx speed, increasingly difficult analytics and indistinguishable transactions.

this case is overstated


it's only going to be the 'base case'/'cooperative case' that will become indistinguishable, e.g. Lightning channel opening transactions and cooperatively closed channels, because Schnorr "additivity" (which is not a real word Tongue) makes such transactions appear the same as a regular [1 (or more) inputs -> 2 outputs] tx, because there is only 1 aggregated signature (because additive signatures, despite 2 parties signing the tx). Currently, spending outputs from that kind of transaction reveals it to be a 2 of 2 multisig that had alternate script paths, not so with the same tx script using Taproot/schnorr.

But, uncooperative closes are still distinguishable from regular [1+ in -> 2 out] transactions, because of the atypical script they use will (necessarily) be revealed if they are broadcast/confirmed in a block. I know, uncooperative channel closures are not common, but they will still sometimes happen when using Taproot/schnorr based channels/contracts.

And so, all other atypical scripts will still be distinguishable from regular transactions too. It's just nice that the construction of many contracts involve using the [1+ in -> 2 out] regular pattern as their base case.
legendary
Activity: 2310
Merit: 1422
May 04, 2021, 12:03:23 PM
Good, with Antpool onbard we'll get there eventually. Jimmy Song predicts we'll have it activated by Thanksgiving; what do y'all think? Before or after?
I can't wait for improved fungibility, better tx speed, increasingly difficult analytics and indistinguishable transactions.
MBBA
Make Bitcoin Better Again Grin
sr. member
Activity: 438
Merit: 291
May 04, 2021, 04:14:41 AM
Yes plus antpool!
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/000000000000000000098395525a9cedb2d58fec5e99335d778d96663c16cf9d

That is a big one as they could have blocked it...

So over 50% now - just need the 5 mid-sized pools and done.
legendary
Activity: 3668
Merit: 6382
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May 04, 2021, 03:59:59 AM
From what I see at https://taproot.watch/ Antpool was not signaling it at block 681853, but it does at block 681854?!
Can we say +Antpool?
sr. member
Activity: 438
Merit: 291
May 04, 2021, 03:48:23 AM
+Poolin - so another 10% - up to about 35% out of the 90% of hash power needed...
https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/block/681823

So we have 4 out of the top 10 pools signalling - probably need all of them though.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
May 03, 2021, 10:33:58 PM
Do miners do this to try and get a head start on finding the next block and getting a reward? Do these empty blocks live on the shared blockchain if they don't become stale?
Yes and Yes.
Since mining in Proof of Work is based on luck, they could get lucky in that few seconds and find a new block to get the reward before others do which is why they do it.
You can find such blocks on the blockchain, here is a block explorer link you can use to see said blocks that are empty (only have the mandatory coinbase transaction): https://blockchair.com/bitcoin/blocks?q=transaction_count(1)#
staff
Activity: 4242
Merit: 8672
May 03, 2021, 06:36:35 PM
I agreed (in the end) that the "good faith gesture" opening move of deploying Speedy Trial was the best option to start off BIP340-2 activation.

I'm kind of taking the same view on luke's alternative activation client; he thinks giving miners any mechanism to delay activation is a mistake. I'm sympathetic, but disagree.

Not going to get into a discussion about this though, as we've already got people attempting to create hype around it.

There are two major possibilities:

Activate a rule without hashpower enforcement which may create a second incompatible forkcoin blockchain with fair probability, causing millions of dollars cumulative cost to the part of the industry that handles third party bitcoins (exchanges, etc) when they may be forced to allow withdraws of the fork (or sued when they don't),  with high probability creates long reorgs  (>6 blocks) that will be visible to a portion of users, potentially allowing double spending theft.  Notably none of these costs are costs to miners (other than indirectly through dropping the Bitcoin price), and an additional fork gives miners the potential for greater profit (because more total coins are issued but difficulty is split).

Or have a system that waits until a super-majority hashpower will enforce the rule, so that a second competing chain cannot persist.  A consequence of this is that miners can delay activation.

Those are the choices.  The details of the parameters can influence the severity of the negative effects-- e.g. longer to upgrade can make fewer users effected by reorgs,  or a shorter activation period can reduce the maximum delay miners can cause,  but that fundamental issue remains.

If you make a non-hashpower enforcement take *years* to activate then ubiquitous enforcement by users might eliminate the forks/reorgs/etc. But in that case you've created *years* of delay instead of months of delay, so the goal of not being delayed fails.  "YOU CANT DELAY US IF WE DELAY OURSELVES!!!" Smiley


Checkout the HN taproot thread and the long discussion I had with someone who was *convinced* that taproot was going to create a spinoff chain.  The only reason it almost certainly won't is miner activation.

Now, if miners are legit blocking a deployment against the communities will, then the significant costs and risks of a forced activation may be well worth it.  Or if it's already blocked, making the forced activation happen years out wont be any more delay.  Or if the change is a non-urgent fixup, then delaying it years to begin with may not be a problem.

But if there is no particular reason to think they are going to block something, why the heck would we either add huge activation delays or the risk of splitting the chain (requiring preparatory costs, even if it doesn't happen!) just in case they might?   If they do it can be dealt with then, with the full benefit of information about how the obstruction went, how widely and quickly the users deployed the update, etc.

To give a concrete example, say we learned that 20% hashpower obstructed for no good reason and users upgraded about as fast as they normally do during an initial attempt.  Then it mike make sense to deploy with a 70% activation threshold and a flag day that activates regardless after 3 years,   This way it'll probably activate quickly with minimal disruption but users still have adequate time to upgrade before a disruptive hard cut if the blocking miners grow.   Or maybe we learn that user uptake was extremely fast for this upgrade, in which case cutting the 3 years to 2 might make sense.

So yeah, sure miners being able to delay stuff isn't good.  But you can't just wish it away, it comes with a phenomenal benefit-- one that is a competitive advantage against constantly hardforking scamcoins-- and one that allows us to activate new consensus rules much *faster*.   If we find miners actually blocking something, then the benefit may not be worth it.  Considering that plenty of users don't anticipate using any specific new feature-- so it has no benefit to them-- a potentially disruptive activation means that some otherwise desirable features would be legitimately opposed by users: why should they take cost and risk for some feature that won't benefit them?

Skipping over the miner activation only looks attractive if you ignore the costs of not using it-- Significant risk of spiting and/or destabilizing the network, years of additional delays, or both.

If you don't like delays you should prefer hashpower triggered activation, except when hashpower wont activate something quickly.  If delay isn't an issue, simply having a flag height set a few years out is probably best.

The right way to think about this is that a consensus rule upgrade naturally takes 2-5 years to do so with low risks.  Using hashpower signaling we can safely bring that down to months, but hashpower might not bother to (or active choose not to) cooperate and then we're stuck with riskier or slower approaches.

Besides,  I proposed taproot in January 2018, assuming it activates at the earliest opportunity via hashpower it'll be almost four years since I proposed it.  These folks that are now so worried about the risk of a few months of delay by miners...  Where were you all these years?   Or is delay only something you care about to the extent of angrily retweeting some hashtag and not enough to bother helping with the work to make something real?
copper member
Activity: 37
Merit: 14
May 03, 2021, 03:55:20 PM
Some miners try to save a tiny amount of time by "spying" on other miners. For example they connect a fake miner to the other mining pools and as the other pool finds a new block their fake miner receives that "hash" of that block which is small (32 bytes only) then the "spy" miner builds their next block based on that hash alone without verifying if the block that was found by the other pool was valid or not (which it may not be valid and during a upgrade/fork the chances of it are higher and that would create a longer stale chain with 2 blocks in it, if more miners do the same this stale chain can become longer).

Do miners do this to try and get a head start on finding the next block and getting a reward? Do these empty blocks live on the shared blockchain if they don't become stale?

If anyone is ignoring the community, it's luke

I've seen luke on reddit getting angry at laymen for not understanding complex coder concepts. Seems nice.
legendary
Activity: 3934
Merit: 3190
Leave no FUD unchallenged
May 03, 2021, 09:43:59 AM
I don't know if some people find it more exciting when there's perceived drama, but this is just software development and economics.  It's not a meant to be a soap opera or so-called "reality television".  If you're looking for such lowly, base entertainment, there are better mediums to find that sort of thing.  We don't need to amplify every little disagreement or clash of personalities that occurs.  Discuss the technology, not the people involved.
sr. member
Activity: 807
Merit: 423
May 03, 2021, 08:38:35 AM
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