Topic: Tau-Chain and Agoras Official Thread: Generalized P2P Network - page 84. (Read 309762 times)

only our undying effort can change our endeavors into undying support.

BOS was a scam ico token, we are not talking about it. We are talking about what u turned ur life into after stopping to date ur farther. I know u loved him. If u wanna pick up a fight I'm all in. I can make a quick anthology. Protocol u are banging on about was developed by those that work for my company. Nobody of them has even heard of arthur or any of other dubious characters that u seem to be referring to in ur statement.

Karov, I didn't ask any questions yet, I am not a tech guy so I have no idea how to ask Tau right (we didn't even see the white paper yet), it's more about discussing the impact that decentralized AI can make in the world.

If you read the article I referred, my question was more from "How can an effective altruist know which problem to commit to or which cause to focus on if they don't have the tools to measure and compare problems" angle.  What is effective altruist and what is altruism in GENERAL?

I don't know how to reason on ethics, it seems like humans failed on that task if you look at where we ended up today. Maybe machines can help us if we ask the right questions. You're right wrong question = wrong answer but what questions are right?

Why there are hungry kids in Africa? Because we don't know they exists or because no one (or the majority) don't dare to ask the right questions?
Why we don't ask the right questions? Maybe because we too concentrated on our self's and simply can't really see how it can harm us (or our kids and family) directly?

Another quote from the article -  "if you use the calculation that all lives are of equal value no matter which country they are born then it would be obvious that this problem if solved has a tremendous impact"
Can Tauchain help? Well, maybe it can show us the whole picture which we can't see from our egoistic box that only able to calculate our own good. It can show us that everything we do impact us directly even if at the moment it doesn't feels like that in our ego sensors and then we gonna ask the right questions.

Well, dmitryshech, pls tell us how at all we could reason on ethics by setting up the question-answer 'phase space' on mashup of freidism, maltusianism, anti-humanism ...? Shouldn't we be more facts and fact-checking oriented, instead of approaching this big question of Ethics from unsubstantiated narative prejudice(s) angle?
Wrong question = wrong answer or in the case of Tau - no answer at all.
I bet asking Tau the question you asked the way you asked (from these premises) - it will generate infinite regress of definitions requests, endless topic exacting, and the inference I bet aslo will reveal that.: 'ego' is void of a concept, that we do NOT destroy mother-nature, nature is not mother at all etc. etc.

Inspired by Dana Edwards recent post about how Tau can help in solving biggest world problems

The world's biggest problem is people with ego's...  We created (or developed or sent here by aliens or whatever anyone beliefs ) as creatures with egos, the ego is  gradually increased along the history. Ego helped us to develop a better, convenient and more o less safe world along the way. By competing with each other we created more and more sophisticated systems and social relations until the world became a large village. We almost got to the dead end though - nothing more to conquer, nothing more to take from mother nature without serious consciousnesses to our self, the science and society comes to serious crisis.

Now we have to deal with each other, to connect right. Especially after robots and AI going to change men in most of the fields, what all these people going to do?  That's I think where Tau can help to create a new system of social relations that people can't create simply because as a creatures with egos we can't  even consider something without taking in account self interest,  we just not able to cancel this egoistic calculation and think about the mother nature first or about your neighbor as your self. So, true altruism it's illusion ( i know we like to think about our selfs as altruists, but think deeper... ). The nature around us is altruistic, but we are NOT, far from it... we need somehow to get to "equivalence of forms" with the nature.

I hope Tau, if built right, could help people to solve this biggest world problem,  to get out of this "ego prison", to connect right with each other and live in harmony with nature, otherwise, nothing good is in front of us... How technically? I have no idea, just sharing my thoughts here...

Something has to force us to connect in a right way, so we only could enjoy something if it doesn't comes on the expense of nature or somebody else or ideally: my only source of happiness is my neighbor happiness. We can't eliminate ego, maybe machine (Tau) can help where humanity is helpless, can help take our egos to a right direction (competing in making each other happier). We keep the ego just change the intention from inside to outside.  Maybe the first rules of changing the rules should be somehow around these ideas...  It also could prevent "Tau becoming a Skynet"

Just a lack of supply imo
people are holding

Price rising. No news?

Still watching closely this thread .

Not sure what you consider to be "good" in that conversation. None of Arthur's questions about the protocol's alleged "self-evolving" properties are actually being answered. The first set of answers just harps on how OWL is great and lands itself well to formal verification, and has got a vast library of ontologies. And the second answer abruptly bails out of the conversation using a very lame "apple and oranges" reason.

thanks no worries they both make nice progress though. but tau comes to answer much wider needs.

Hi,

Are you aware about a project called BOScoin (governance system): https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annbos-boscoin-self-evolving-cryptocurrency-platform-1759662
The trust Contracts are securely executable using Web Ontology Language(OWL) and the Timed Automata Language(TAL).

There was a good discussion between Arhur (Tezos) and BOScoin Team: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.18529378

Thank you very much for your answer and for your hard work.

mr_Zombie:
indeed the root only defines tau itself. but the governance problem is right there. a small example would be the block size saga. obv when it began i was the first to say "told you"
since we want tau to be able to change itself upon agreement, we have to give tools for the change not to destroy the network (aside supporting forkless changes). so one of the changes that we might change tau into, is restricting the way it can be modified in the future (e.g. "can never take someone's money no matter the change"). maybe klosure's analogy is good here https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15324672
the social problems with cooperation are (partially) known. indeed tau is not only about a platform for collaboration, but it is strongly required to work and be useful. there's much to say here, and is not easy to explain yet, and that's also what the paper will be about (same for the question about how it'll look like when it's ready). the goal is to indeed let 1, or 10, or 100, or 1,000,000 people to collaboratively form one or more bodies of knowledge (or a program), without mess, and in a way that the desired theory or program will indeed be formed more efficiently than using existing ways.
as for smart contracts, yes indeed security is gained also by the means of reasoning, and requiring the language to be decidable. however note that just like dao, a program that determines the parameters of coins transfer (aka smart contract) is again only a pale shadow of what can be done with tau. for more use cases, see the last 1-2 pages of https://docs.google.com/document/d/16239hEjL_IgXYsk2I6RMjMKhmUte30leYI3jJ-Vgp3M/edit for example (and is old, the new tau will offer even more)

dmitryshech:
for a short answer, i first need a very good paper, as a first mean of getting more people. then i need to write the first alpha. then i'll have time (and much more value in hand) to approach the public in large scale. i have pending invitations from high executives in many companies like microsoft and google, which i put in hold until i can come with more in hand. when i'll do have that, i'll be able to achieve the marketing goals etc in larger success and smaller effort. right now the mental effort that i need to invest in my current tasks does not allow me to seriously do anything else. it's not hard to focus on telling people what they want to hear and grab millions for void, in this young and wild cryptocurrency world.  people all around do that all the time. but i'm from the other kind of people.
as for the website, we have a very fancy website that is just waiting for the texts to be rewritten. we have a great graphics guy. the bottleneck is me (i told Dana about him in detail only after he wrote the post that we need graphics designer)

Ohad, one of your "relatively ridiculous" neighbors in Israel: https://matchpool.co/crowdfund-live/ showed very impressive results in rising money yesterday. Wonderful team, good marketing, great website UI/UX design, impressive team of advisers
 
I understand that Matchpool is just another great idea built on existing eth platform and tau and agoras are much more complicated and your plans is to go that in public later on, after Tau is ready and you will have a lot in hand, BUT... You said that you want to bring as much as more people to Tau even on early stages, so they can start loading it with knowledge base. Now, keeping matchpool in mind as an example of good marketing, how you're planing to do that?
With no visible marketing strategy, with ICO that not really ICO, with no clear road map starting from Tau ending with Agoras (some people don't even know the difference between the two), with idni.org website that looks like it built in 90's with content that even not every tech will understand?

What about visualizing the idea professionally, at least a little at this point?  Some real use cases like how doctor from Japan can use Tauchain can segnificantly help. Instead, with such a grat project like Tau you guy's (project that already raised some money) looking for volunteers to make a cheep info graphic. Tau deffinetly deserves professional web design studio, branding/marketing agency imo, it will take it to the next level.

I follow Dana Edwards, I like her posts, she doe's a good job in explaining but it certainly not enough. Again, I know that to compare Tau to Matchpool technologically it's apples to oranges comparison but imo if Tau and Agoras are much more complicated to explain, than, moreover, the marketing and visual design should be much more sophisticated than Matchpool.

I am invested (relatively heavy compare to rest of my portfolio) in Tau, I believe in this project and support it so I really hope you understand my good intentions to be constructive.

What is the difference between rootchain and sidechains? I'm trying to understand how important it is to have really strong and efficient governance for the rootchain. If the rootchain doesn't include anything else besides the tau language and some p2p-functions to make it decentralized, the governance isn't probably a big thing because there will be very few decisions to make. Some upgrades sometimes, but if the system is very well designed, this won't happen often. If pretty much all action happens in the sidechains, then most users don't need to care about rootchain. Only thing that they care is that there won't be any changes that break their sidechain operations.

You might be overestimating the willingness of humans to collaborate peacefully over the rules of Tauchain. As we have seen many times in the cryptosphere, people fight over stupid things. Most people are not willing to use logic and rationality to form consensus. That's why I think it's important that there is a clear goal for Tauchain. When it's ready, how it will look like? When you know the goal, you can design the governance machanism to support that goal. The purpose of governance is to make sure that Tauchain achieves the goal (even when many of the participants are ignorant and irrational).


I was mostly thinking what makes Tauchain different from all other smartcontract platforms. At least it should be the most secure – when the smart contract is written in tau language, users can be sure that it works exactly like it's meant to work. Right?

But what are the usecases for Tauchain? What is it really good for, so that people will choose it over other alternatives? Is it easier, cheaper, or faster? Does it offer better functionality? Is it easier to make more complicated smartcontracts? What is the "unfair advantage" of Tauchain?

I have a few potential ideas for DAO/DAC. Tauchain is one of the most interesting platforms currently, mostly because of Agoras. If I can easily reuse existing code and hire programmers to write new code in a marketplace, it might offer a great way to develop something that actually works. I could just define what the DAO should do and use Agoras to hire somebody to combine existing code or write new functions so that I have the business logic. Then I can just focus on branding and marketing.

Another potentially interesting thing is to use AI with DAOs. It won't happen soon, but it's interesting to think how to replace piece by piece some things where humans are needed for DAO. It seems that Tau might be the best platform to enable this. In the beginning it will be only small things, but over time it could evolve to something really interesting.

BTW, this is a great short video about DAO/DAC perspective for blockchains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QG-CcbtwKKU

I've found the DAO perspective to be extremely helpful to think about governance and long term future of blockchain projects. Too many projects start with ambitious hopes but not enough disciplined thinking about what it actually takes to have a virtual organization that can survive (and preferably thrive) over long periods of time.


Are there any real world usecases for this? Usually people are very irrational and don't want to do this kind of stuff. They rather keep their contradictory beliefs. It's very small group of people who want to have anything to do with logical knowledge accumulation. Even many scientists are really bad at rationality.

This goes a little bit over my head. How can normal people use this system to do something?

Anyways, finally I took some time to try to understand better this project and skimmed through this whole topic. So here are some random thoughts and questions.

1. Would you call Tauchain a DAO? It's decentralized (maybe not in the beginning, but it aims to be in the future), it's autonomous, but is it something that you can call "organization"?

If the answer is yes, you might be able use it to explain better what Tauchain is and what it does. It also helps to think more clearly how the governance system should be designed.

A DAO needs help from humans to make decision (not enough AI yet). How it will listen and use the human input? Somebody has to have power over the rules. In the beginning it's good to centralize decision making power to developers, because they know the best how the system works. But in the long run it's probably best to decentralize the decision making power to make sure that the DAO will stay resilient.

It's important to make difference between decentralization of existence and ruling power. Decentralization of existence is really important to make sure that the DAO will keep running even when many of the computers it exists on will be shut down for some reason. Decentralization of ruling power over the rules and decisions of the blockchain is different thing. In the beginning it's probably even a bad idea because it's dangerous to have too many ignorant rulers.

We can also have different roles in decentralization of existence. In traditional blockchains there are block producers and nodes. Apparently Tauchain will also have a blockchain, so there needs to be rules who will produce the next block and how they will get rewarded. If there is lot of data that everybody needs, there might be a need to incentivize some nodes, too.

2. How Tauchain will work from the user perspective? If I fire up a Tau client, what do I have? What can I do with it? For example, what if I want to create a new DAO for some purpose. How it will be done in practice? It will probably need a blockchain or some other secure way of saving data and making transactions? Do I have to code everything or can I just use some existing codebase and blockchain?

3. Is it possible to use Tau language in offline computer, just like any other programming language? Would it make sense to publish the language first, let people play with it and make sure it works, and then launch Tauchain?

why only bittrex and why so bad website ? its an old project that looks like ethereum to me, why so little advance in looks

Yes, probably all my points are more relevant for future Agaras platform, sorry about going back and forth with this. I am just trying to draw a complete picture in my mind.

Thanks to you and Dana Edwards latest post https://steemit.com/tauchain/@dana-edwards/tauchain-the-automated-programmer  it's much clearer now.