Technological unemployment is (almost) here - page 10.

Rassah

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Quote from: giantdragon on October 28, 2014, 11:13:37 PM

Edward Snowden shared his views on the tech unemployment issue supporting base income.

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As a technologist, I see the trends, and I see that automation inevitably is going to mean fewer and fewer jobs. And if we do not find a way to provide a basic income for people who have no work, or no meaningful work, we’re going to have social unrest that could get people killed. When we have increasing production—year after year after year—some of that needs to be reinvested in society. It doesn’t need to be consistently concentrated in these venture-capital funds and things like that. I’m not a communist, a socialist or a radical. But these issues have to be  addressed.

http://www.thenation.com/article/186129/snowden-exile-exclusive-interview

Technologist =/= economist. If things indeed get more and more efficient, that by definition means they will be cheaper to make and cheaper to produce. So a family will be able to survive on the salary of only one person, again. Don't forget that we used to have less than 50% of the population employed in the past, and we did fine.

aljunking

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We will all be replaced by robots. Roll Eyes

STT

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Capitalism is competetive industry and use of capital including labour, its deployment and cost. If production (competitive not mandated or subsided as snowdon seems to suggest) is increasing every year, it benefits a free society. Wages can actually drop while this is going on and average standard of living rises, mostly this would also result in higher currency worth. We dont have capitalism, its hard to argue any one point when its being undermined

Quote from: steelhouse on September 05, 2014, 09:28:41 PM

k * wage = price of goods

k - goes up with taxes, government, teachers unions
k - goes down with capitalism, innovation, free market

The reason why we don't see any improvement is if the gdp goes down due to innovation the government will just raise taxes. Dropping gdp is a sign of success.

Wouldnt GDP rise if one nation is more innovative then others. Especially now, mass production means export and scales of economy apply to taxes whereby they can raise more from a low rate then a higher one. We've tested 90% income tax in the last few decades, it didnt raise tax it caused business to leave the country. We are still repeating this logic when obama mentions tax inversion, even governments must justify themselves at some point, apparently Snowdon has more in common then he realised

Ironically the thread title is redundant, its an effect ongoing for hundreds of years now but as a modern society we fail to respect history

giantdragon

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Edward Snowden shared his views on the tech unemployment issue supporting base income.

Quote

As a technologist, I see the trends, and I see that automation inevitably is going to mean fewer and fewer jobs. And if we do not find a way to provide a basic income for people who have no work, or no meaningful work, we’re going to have social unrest that could get people killed. When we have increasing production—year after year after year—some of that needs to be reinvested in society. It doesn’t need to be consistently concentrated in these venture-capital funds and things like that. I’m not a communist, a socialist or a radical. But these issues have to be  addressed.

http://www.thenation.com/article/186129/snowden-exile-exclusive-interview

clovex

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This will be good for BTC, it will be whole package (fiat deflation, mega unemployment etc = people search for alternative ways of storage = BTC goes moon)

Nicolas Dorier

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you can't ignore the outside world and people's circumstances

Art lives with constraint and die with freedom. (Leonardo da Vinci)
Those constraints is part of the game, and you have to be creative to hack them to your purpose which ask lots of creativity.

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there is a lot that can be considered work that does not necessarily yield any money, but isn't any less enjoyable or needed.

If you do needed work and no money, either you should check your premise (your work is actually not needed) or you refuse payment.
There is no such thing as "unpaid needed work" except if you consent and refuse the payment.

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And if you're worried about getting bored with the game, you can go play something else - people will never run out of goals; the current rat race isn't the only game in town

Exactly, I will happily play somewhere else. And I understand you hate your life if you consider 50% of your waking time living in "a rat race" when you could do both art and make money instead.

steelhouse

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k * wage = price of goods

k - goes up with taxes, government, teachers unions
k - goes down with capitalism, innovation, free market

The reason why we don't see any improvement is if the gdp goes down due to innovation the government will just raise taxes. Dropping gdp is a sign of success.

giantdragon

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U.S. Labor force participation rate in August again hit its lower value!

u9y42

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Quote from: Nicolas Dorier on September 03, 2014, 05:44:37 AM

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if you bother looking, there are countless examples of stuff people did with the game that did not include any of the things you mentioned, and I'm sure it didn't stop them from enjoying doing them

True, it is called the creative mode, where you can defy the law of gravity and have unlimited riches, the purely creative aspect is fun, as lego is.
But being creative and making money is not in opposition, on the contrary it is what make money today, even if it is not specifically playing minecraft or lego.
Mindless repetitive work is, I suspect, what make you hate your work, and you would have good reason for it.

Hell is what happen when you don't use your full capacity because you don't need to. Like a game too easy to play that it becomes boring and you feel empty.
If I believed in god, I would say he is a great game designer.

Being creative doesn't necessarily translate into making money - you can't ignore the outside world and people's circumstances. Further, you're still equating his "don't want to have to deal with work and money" to mean he doesn't want to use his capacities as fully as he can, which I see no reason to assume; the truth is, there is a lot that can be considered work that does not necessarily yield any money, but isn't any less enjoyable or needed.

And if you're worried about getting bored with the game, you can go play something else - people will never run out of goals; the current rat race isn't the only game in town.

Nicolas Dorier

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Quote

if you bother looking, there are countless examples of stuff people did with the game that did not include any of the things you mentioned, and I'm sure it didn't stop them from enjoying doing them

True, it is called the creative mode, where you can defy the law of gravity and have unlimited riches, the purely creative aspect is fun, as lego is.
But being creative and making money is not in opposition, on the contrary it is what make money today, even if it is not specifically playing minecraft or lego.
Mindless repetitive work is, I suspect, what make you hate your work, and you would have good reason for it.

Hell is what happen when you don't use your full capacity because you don't need to. Like a game too easy to play that it becomes boring and you feel empty.
If I believed in god, I would say he is a great game designer.

u9y42

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Quote from: Nicolas Dorier on August 29, 2014, 06:48:33 AM

Quote from: Poorri on August 28, 2014, 02:59:33 PM

I wish I was born in year 2500 so i wouldnt have to deal with all this work and money bullshit.

This would be the definition of hell.
Imagine playing at Minecraft without needing to fight the zombies, without needing to feed yourself, and without needing searching for diamond. Not a fun game to play.

Really? I kind of enjoyed playing with Lego when I was younger. Sure, some form of challenge is always a good incentive to most people, but there is no reason to believe it must manifest itself as the current money for work system - working for social betterment, to ensure everyone has food on their table, a roof, etc, can be just as rewarding to some people. I mean, even the example you gave is kind of bad: if you bother looking, there are countless examples of stuff people did with the game that did not include any of the things you mentioned, and I'm sure it didn't stop them from enjoying doing them. Tongue

hodap

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Quote from: Rassah on August 27, 2014, 12:06:21 PM

The only point at which technology may start causing issues with money is when we can upload ourselves into machines and share thoughts/consciousness. Not only will immortality change the time-is-money dynamic, but it will be really hard to keep private keys private when everyone can read your mind.

Technology will be there to limit access to your thought if we ever reach that level of advancement. Otherwise, no one will want to "upload" themselves to the machine.

Nicolas Dorier

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Quote from: Poorri on August 28, 2014, 02:59:33 PM

I wish I was born in year 2500 so i wouldnt have to deal with all this work and money bullshit.

This would be the definition of hell.
Imagine playing at Minecraft without needing to fight the zombies, without needing to feed yourself, and without needing searching for diamond. Not a fun game to play.

squall1066

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Quote from: Poorri on August 28, 2014, 02:59:33 PM

I wish I was born in year 2500 so i wouldnt have to deal with all this work and money bullshit.

I do hear and understand you, But the human race will not get to this point..., As long as someone want's more than someone else!

I am glad to be around at the birth of this concept, I just hope I can pass on what I have learned successfully.

Poorri

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I wish I was born in year 2500 so i wouldnt have to deal with all this work and money bullshit.

bigtimespaghetti

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Quote from: STT on August 27, 2014, 09:48:53 PM

Quote from: bigtimespaghetti on August 27, 2014, 04:36:55 AM

Quote from: Arriemoller on August 26, 2014, 07:20:26 PM

A new Swedish study shows that violent crime and drug abuse is not caused by poverty, but rather by genetics. There is a correlation but no causality between poverty and violent crime/drug abuse.
If these familys are the fat useless people that procreate, then some genetic manipulation might take care of the problem.
http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21613303-disturbing-study-link-between-incomes-and-criminal-behaviour-have-and

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/early/2014/08/14/bjp.bp.113.136200.abstract

Genetics surely plays a role just as different races have slightly different physiological attributes, but raise a kid in Nigeria (or shit UK state schools for that matter) and he'll be in a more violent environment. Let's look at what predominantly causes violence and also epigenetic changes (child abuse).

I really do not understand this bias towards using science to remove responsibility from individuals. By this studies results I guess all those no go areas of London just happen to be impoverished and ignorant?

The fat and useless are only that way because they are enabled by the state stealing other people's resources.

People can play with their genes if they want to voluntarily, but that sounds too close to eugenics for my taste.

Eugenics made up a large part of stupidity of world war two. Its fairly clear to me that the potential of human beings far outweighs their physical limitations and so crime or success is not largely from dna. Mostly we are all related not limited by where we're born but limited or enabled by our early circumstances as we grow

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Part of the reason populations are growing is because there is less war, famine and crime.

Technology is a large part. Pre industrial revolution most of society was spent just raising enough food to thrive and now we've gone way past in most countries. I think we have the same amount of crime but less need for violence to succeed in that task maybe. Look at how many are trying to earn just by swindling online, even crime has developed into something more sophisicated

Great points. As to swindling online, did you know an entire cult has grown up around online fraud /crime.. I think it was in Nigeria, surprise. I think it was a vice documentary about it.

Couldn't comment whether there is less or more crime. I would bet on it being about the same, maybe a little more?

waterpile

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In my past work area, I have seen group of people dismissed because the company purchased a software to compute for them and its really sad to see some of my friends go. So, We compete with other people and also with technology... Oh well I guess unemployment will really cannot be solved

STT

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Quote from: bigtimespaghetti on August 27, 2014, 04:36:55 AM

Quote from: Arriemoller on August 26, 2014, 07:20:26 PM

A new Swedish study shows that violent crime and drug abuse is not caused by poverty, but rather by genetics. There is a correlation but no causality between poverty and violent crime/drug abuse.
If these familys are the fat useless people that procreate, then some genetic manipulation might take care of the problem.
http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21613303-disturbing-study-link-between-incomes-and-criminal-behaviour-have-and

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/early/2014/08/14/bjp.bp.113.136200.abstract

Genetics surely plays a role just as different races have slightly different physiological attributes, but raise a kid in Nigeria (or shit UK state schools for that matter) and he'll be in a more violent environment. Let's look at what predominantly causes violence and also epigenetic changes (child abuse).

I really do not understand this bias towards using science to remove responsibility from individuals. By this studies results I guess all those no go areas of London just happen to be impoverished and ignorant?

The fat and useless are only that way because they are enabled by the state stealing other people's resources.

People can play with their genes if they want to voluntarily, but that sounds too close to eugenics for my taste.

Eugenics made up a large part of stupidity of world war two. Its fairly clear to me that the potential of human beings far outweighs their physical limitations and so crime or success is not largely from dna. Mostly we are all related not limited by where we're born but limited or enabled by our early circumstances as we grow

Quote

Part of the reason populations are growing is because there is less war, famine and crime.

Technology is a large part. Pre industrial revolution most of society was spent just raising enough food to thrive and now we've gone way past in most countries. I think we have the same amount of crime but less need for violence to succeed in that task maybe. Look at how many are trying to earn just by swindling online, even crime has developed into something more sophisicated

Rassah

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The only point at which technology may start causing issues with money is when we can upload ourselves into machines and share thoughts/consciousness. Not only will immortality change the time-is-money dynamic, but it will be really hard to keep private keys private when everyone can read your mind.

bigtimespaghetti

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Quote from: mustang77 on August 27, 2014, 11:41:10 AM

The advancements of technology will sooner or later question the monetary system.

Eventually maybe, but until then I think the monetary system will more likely embrace cryptos as a whole.

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