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Topic: TH1BTC Speculation Thread - Bitfinex Cloud Mining Contract - page 6. (Read 14250 times)

legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
I feel your pain. I closed my position today at a total loss of .77 btc, and I count myself lucky it wasn't worse.  I think if bitfinex does this again they should offer unlimited swap contracts at a rate of 1.11% (rate of depreciation).  If they suddenly add more liquidity now though then I'll be pissed.

I don't think they can offer naked swaps.  The swaps need to be backed up by something.  

They could possibly sell a set of two contracts for $0.
1. A short position
2. A long position

So you would spend $0 and receive one of each contract. Then you could buy and sell them - letting everyone be market makers.  If they aren't able to instantly add/remove mining capacity (and I think they lack this magical ability) then the "dividend" could be based on the mining of a pool - without actually doing any mining.  This "fake mining" has the tiny advantage of making you more money as you aren't adding to the mining hash rate. And you shouldn't need to pay the pool fee =)

I think this removes the need for swaps and might solve the manipulation problem.  Do you see any problems with it?

The University of Iowa Electronic Market (http://tippie.uiowa.edu/iem/) uses a similar approach. They sell contracts for political events like who will win the US presidential election (somehow this isn't seen as gambling). For $1, they issue three contracts 1) Democrat wins, 2) Republican wins, 3) Other wins.  One of these three contracts will be worth $1.  They also sell contracts based on a percent (Ex. percent of vote a political party will get in an election).
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
Someone should start a bet on Bitbet.  Any suggestions?  Ex. you could bet that the contract would mine less than 1 BTC between Oct 15 and Dec 15.  Though that is actually a fairly boring bet as I'd give it a 90-95% probability.  You could have a bet that Bitfinex will reverse the trades.  That might get the manipulator worried.  Or you could bet that the contract value exceeds 2 BTC before it expires.
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
I feel your pain. I closed my position today at a total loss of .77 btc, and I count myself lucky it wasn't worse.  I think if bitfinex does this again they should offer unlimited swap contracts at a rate of 1.11% (rate of depreciation).  If they suddenly add more liquidity now though then I'll be pissed.
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
Even assuming that the difficulty does not rise at all, the bid is more than the mining income will be. Bidders must now be expecting the difficulty to fall by 12/15 (by more than 10%). Or perhaps they are cex.io refugees that are happy to pay for the privilege of mining.

Assuming that the difficulty remains constant, mining income for 1 TH/s until 12/15 will be about 1.14 BTC.

0% difficulty increase - I get 0.94 BTC (Oct 10 to Dec 15 - and I only count half of Dec 15 due to it ending at noon).
Remember 3% pool fee.  Not sure how you'd be off by 17% though.
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
I closed my short position at a large loss.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
good luck i not closing my short position with loss, if bitfinex not add more swap then, they are will be responded for this manipulation, they made this contracts with option of margin selling, and if this fail, becouse them i hope they reapir mistakes on some way.

Becouse this i can lost all my money, i shorting 4xth1 from 1.3 from 12 days, if prize will be going up and swap cost too, then i will lost all and bitfinex team will be responded for that becouse not adding more assets
newbie
Activity: 12
Merit: 0
It seems pretty obvious that the market is being manipulated.  The price on an overvalued depreciating asset should not be going up. 

In a few days the people who shorted on day 1 will be looking for more swap, and it either won't be there or it will be there at a high cost.  So that means a lot of people are going to be forced to buy, and that's going to push the price up and maybe make some people liquidate their short positions (pushing the price up even higher).  Those who bought, even at an over-valued price, will turn around and sell at a higher profit.

You should consider closing your short positions before that happens.
legendary
Activity: 4466
Merit: 3391
Even assuming that the difficulty does not rise at all, the bid is more than the mining income will be. Bidders must now be expecting the difficulty to fall by 12/15 (by more than 30%). Or perhaps they are cex.io refugees that are happy to pay for the privilege of mining.

Assuming that the difficulty remains constant, mining income for 1 TH/s until 12/15 will be about 0.94 BTC.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
i remember hids up to 200+ now up to 150
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
My apology. You are correct that there is a big decline in the Bids wall.  How many bids are gone?  50? 
There is still 112 bid support at 1.09 - which is still way too high.


full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
th1 dump begin 1 hour ago, now still chance to sell you th1 high

This is not margin selling with using swap, this is normal Exchange sell TH1, this mean big dump, i think 0.7 low


marketmaker trying to sell so much th1 what he can, then will dump prize to 0.7-0.8 i think
1.281 10 th1 looks like marketmaker buy order, sell into it if you dont want lost on flashdump

Not much of a dump.  The price was higher than average for the past 15 days and is returning to a possible 1.27 floor.
you dont see no buy support ?, what is point to delete fake buy support if you dont want dump prize ?
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
th1 dump begin 1 hour ago, now still chance to sell you th1 high

This is not margin selling with using swap, this is normal Exchange sell TH1, this mean big dump, i think 0.7 low


marketmaker trying to sell so much th1 what he can, then will dump prize to 0.7-0.8 i think
1.281 10 th1 looks like marketmaker buy order, sell into it if you dont want lost on flashdump

Not much of a dump.  The price was higher than average for the past 15 days and is returning to a possible 1.27 floor.
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
The expected return of shorting TH1 keeps increasing. The only problem is a possible short squeeze. It would be great to be able to short it with a limited loss, by buying put options for example.
The other problem is a swap squeeze. Imagine if interest rates hit 99% on the final day and the contract value is still 1.27.  Imagine if 30 days before this the swap rate hits 3.3%/day.

Depending on the price, that wouldn't last, as people could buy TH1 and offer to lend it for less than a gigantic interest.
And you can get 30 day loans to make that kind of problems less likely.

The price is going to be 1.27 on the final day (or higher) as it will be maintained by the market manipulator.

Or the price will be 1.27 going into the last 30 days, and you will need to spend 2-3% interest/day if you want a 30 day contract.
Someone could offer it for less interest, but why would they?  All of the lower interest contracts would be borrowed, and there would still be demand for the higher interest swaps as long as they were providing a modest profit to the shorters.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
th1 dump begin 1 hour ago, now still chance to sell you th1 high

This is not margin selling with using swap, this is normal Exchange sell TH1, this mean big dump, i think 0.7 low


marketmaker trying to sell so much th1 what he can, then will dump prize to 0.7-0.8 i think
1.281 10 th1 looks like marketmaker buy order, sell into it if you dont want lost on flashdump
sr. member
Activity: 544
Merit: 250
Evil Pool
10 sized buy orders by marketmaker removed. Correction is coming? They should increase quantity of contracts more than by 100 next time.
legendary
Activity: 1199
Merit: 1047
The expected return of shorting TH1 keeps increasing. The only problem is a possible short squeeze. It would be great to be able to short it with a limited loss, by buying put options for example.
The other problem is a swap squeeze. Imagine if interest rates hit 99% on the final day and the contract value is still 1.27.  Imagine if 30 days before this the swap rate hits 3.3%/day.

Depending on the price, that wouldn't last, as people could buy TH1 and offer to lend it for less than a gigantic interest.
And you can get 30 day loans to make that kind of problems less likely.
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
Also - is there a URL that provides a list of all the bids and asks? 

Try bfxdata.com
Now I'm looking for bid and ask walls over time which I don't think they provide. You need to store them. I'd like to look for market manipulation.
legendary
Activity: 1868
Merit: 1023
The expected return of shorting TH1 keeps increasing. The only problem is a possible short squeeze. It would be great to be able to short it with a limited loss, by buying put options for example.
The other problem is a swap squeeze. Imagine if interest rates hit 99% on the final day and the contract value is still 1.27.  Imagine if 30 days before this the swap rate hits 3.3%/day.
full member
Activity: 169
Merit: 100
wtf is happen, prize still 1.30, if this not fall down, soon everyone shorter will be margin called and lost all money
+ swap cost is very high, and no more contract 500 is all ?
sr. member
Activity: 544
Merit: 250
Evil Pool
Also - is there a URL that provides a list of all the bids and asks? 

Try bfxdata.com
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