The 21 Bitcoin Computer - page 12. | Bitcointalksearch.org

BitUsher

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Quote from: brg444 on September 21, 2015, 07:36:54 PM

It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model.

Quote

Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining.

https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821

That's all fine and well... but you are discussing the future and we are discussing this product and whether people should buy it or not.
There are better ways to be altruistic to support the bitcoin ecosystem if that is what you are implying.

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: Come-from-Beyond on September 21, 2015, 07:21:15 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 21, 2015, 07:10:47 PM

Exactly, and more importantly: you likely won't have to pay for transactions fees.

And wait several hours to get your transaction included into a rare 21inc block?

They're currently mining 3-4 blocks a day. Enough to regularly settle millions of microtransactions on chain. Think of it like a payment channel maybe?

Moreover, if they succeed in their plan to embed mining chips into every internet connected devices I can imagine that could eventually considerably increase their share of the mining market.

RGBKey

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rgbkey.github.io/pgp.txt

Yeah, I think the purpose of the mining chip is more to secure bitcoin than to turn a profit. My mistake.

brg444

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: odolvlobo on September 21, 2015, 07:34:48 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 21, 2015, 07:04:01 PM

Quote from: BitUsher on September 21, 2015, 06:58:16 PM

Quote from: TheRealSteve on September 21, 2015, 06:51:58 PM

The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though

Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain?

It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off...

That's the point.

The device as it stand is a pilot, eventually the mining chips will be embedded right into your computer's motherboard.

it is ridiculous to spend 1.77 BTC for a device that will generate less than 0.03 BTC per month (less electricity cost). It is far more effective to buy the BTC directly.

As for running a full node, there are much cheaper alternatives: http://raspnode.com/

As for a mining chip on my motherboard -- no thanks.

It isn't about breaking even by using the hashing power as a revenue model.

Quote

Some might ask why a device engineer would desire such a thing. Isn’t the purpose of bitcoin mining simply to get rich — or not, as the case may be? Well, at 21 we are less concerned with bitcoin as a financial instrument and more interested in bitcoin as a protocol — and particularly in the industrial uses of bitcoin enabled by embedded mining.

https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821

BitUsher

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Quote from: Jammalan the Prophet on September 21, 2015, 07:34:23 PM

The "lighting network" has to major flaws of let's say weaknesses , time and spam.
With the current 1-8 mb block debate I wouldn't take a bet on it as a solution.

Tx are instant with lightning network. Spam/DDOS attacks are taken care of by fees to lightning nodes.

Care to elaborate?

Quote from: odolvlobo on September 21, 2015, 07:34:48 PM

As for a mining chip on my motherboard -- no thanks.

Agreed. I throwaway device like a well ventilated router yes , I don't want any more heat near my motherboard and other expensive components.

odolvlobo

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Quote from: brg444 on September 21, 2015, 07:04:01 PM

Quote from: BitUsher on September 21, 2015, 06:58:16 PM

Quote from: TheRealSteve on September 21, 2015, 06:51:58 PM

The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though

Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain?

It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off...

That's the point.

The device as it stand is a pilot, eventually the mining chips will be embedded right into your computer's motherboard.

it is ridiculous to spend 1.77 BTC for a device that will generate less than 0.03 BTC per month (less electricity cost). It is far more effective and easier and faster and more convenient to buy $400 worth of BTC directly.

As for running a full node, there are much cheaper alternatives: http://raspnode.com/

As for a mining chip on my motherboard -- no thanks.

Jammalan the Prophet

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Activity: 500

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Quote from: BitUsher on September 21, 2015, 07:25:08 PM

Quote from: Jammalan the Prophet on September 21, 2015, 07:21:59 PM

Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved.

Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased.
Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins.

Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks.

Caching layers like the lightning network(and perhaps 21s micropayment server???) are not off the chain and can be made as secure as on the chain transactions. I recommend you read up on what makes them different.

The "lighting network" has two major flaws or let's say weaknesses , time and spam.
With the current 1-8 mb block debate I wouldn't take a bet on it as a solution.

BitUsher

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Activity: 994

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Quote from: brg444 on September 21, 2015, 07:28:18 PM

The project is based around microtransactions. There's no reason you need full Bitcoin decentralization for these.

I sure hope that they are providing decentralized microtransaction solutions with no extra fee. If they aren't than their product isn't attractive at all as there are already 100s of solutions that allow for free microtransactions with bitcoin.

RGBKey

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rgbkey.github.io/pgp.txt

That seems way expensive for a computer that doesn't really do that much, even though it has some cool features.

kenw2

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Feed me btc ^

This is pretty neat, but not $400 neat. Tongue

brg444

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Activity: 644

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: Jammalan the Prophet on September 21, 2015, 07:21:59 PM

Quote from: BitUsher on September 21, 2015, 06:58:16 PM

Quote from: TheRealSteve on September 21, 2015, 06:51:58 PM

The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though

Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain?

It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off...

Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved.

Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased.
Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins.

Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks.

The project is based around microtransactions. There's no reason you need full Bitcoin decentralization for these.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: TheRealSteve on September 21, 2015, 07:14:26 PM

Nah, the raspberry pi type hardware makes a lot of sense. The people they're targeting are likely already familiar with that sort of device (if not an rpi then a beaglebone black or a pcduino or etc.) and these devices make it pretty easy to just slap some other arbitrary hardware on there and have the device communicating with that hardware with very little effort.

At this point it isn't even clear if people are 'getting' bitcoin, or (as per my post) tokens-equivalent-to. If they're not getting bitcoin then a payment portal to buy the tokens direct would be a lot simpler, cost effective for the end-user, etc. If they are getting bitcoin indirectly (i.e. payout is to 21's pool) then that doesn't do much against mining centralization other than growing one of the existing players. If they *are* getting bitcoin directly, then it's back to a whole bunch of microtransactions in blocks (as payout to the device owners) and a whole bunch of other mess.

Agreed on the node part, though. As it is, I wish the hardware nodes available for commercial sale were more affordable.

And yes, this is commentary on this specific product

The payout is made to 21inc mining pool. The users are getting bitcoins, not tokens...

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: Jammalan the Prophet on September 21, 2015, 07:21:59 PM

Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved.

Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased.
Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins.

Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks.

Caching layers like the lightning network(and perhaps 21s micropayment server???) are not off the chain and can be made as secure as on the chain transactions. I recommend you read up on what makes them different.

Jammalan the Prophet

sr. member

Activity: 500

Merit: 250

Quote from: BitUsher on September 21, 2015, 06:58:16 PM

Quote from: TheRealSteve on September 21, 2015, 06:51:58 PM

The mining chip in all of this still doesn't make any sense, though

Neither the rasberry Pi hardware... why not simply release a marketplace which allows decentralized micropayments that eventually hit the blockchain?

It only makes sense if we assume that the mining chip allows people to get bitcoin without the hassle of buying it and their objective is to grow and strengthen the bitcoin ecosystem by decentralizing mining and increasing node count. Remember alot of these investors are bitcoin bagholders too and are probably concerned about the centralization of mining and node drop off...

Just create another damn altcoin ....problem solved.

Transactions that are not in the blockchain can be manipulated , reversed erased.
Coins that are not in your personal wallet are not your coins.

Trusting a 3rd party with your coins and transactions reminds me of....banks.

Come-from-Beyond

legendary

Activity: 2142

Merit: 1010

Newbie

Quote from: brg444 on September 21, 2015, 07:10:47 PM

Exactly, and more importantly: you likely won't have to pay for transactions fees.

And wait several hours to get your transaction included into a rare 21inc block?

TheRealSteve

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 500

FUN > ROI

Nah, the raspberry pi type hardware makes a lot of sense. The people they're targeting are likely already familiar with that sort of device (if not an rpi then a beaglebone black or a pcduino or etc.) and these devices make it pretty easy to just slap some other arbitrary hardware on there and have the device communicating with that hardware with very little effort.

At this point it isn't even clear if people are 'getting' bitcoin, or (as per my post) tokens-equivalent-to. If they're not getting bitcoin then a payment portal to buy the tokens direct would be a lot simpler, cost effective for the end-user, etc. If they are getting bitcoin indirectly (i.e. payout is to 21's pool) then that doesn't do much against mining centralization other than growing one of the existing players. If they *are* getting bitcoin directly, then it's back to a whole bunch of microtransactions in blocks (as payout to the device owners) and a whole bunch of other mess.

Agreed on the node part, though. As it is, I wish the hardware nodes available for commercial sale were more affordable.

And yes, this is commentary on this specific product

BitUsher

legendary

Activity: 994

Merit: 1035

Quote from: brg444 on September 21, 2015, 07:04:01 PM

That's the point.

The device as it stand is a pilot, eventually the mining chips will be embedded right into your computer's motherboard.

Yes, embedded in routers, motherboards, ect.. make sense as they will drive down the cost of the miner to a couple dollars.

I understand their vision, but we are commenting on the product and have to strain to think of a possible use case.
They would have been much better off with the previous leaked ideas ... give away free routers and kept 2/3rds of the btc as people wont care about the 1 dollar more in monthly electric use. Apparently, that didn't pan out or represented false rumors. Either way, they aren't going to be selling many of these devices they way they are marketed.

Quote from: HostFat on September 21, 2015, 07:08:22 PM

By mining on their pool, with their device, your tx will always have high priority against all other tx from others users.
You have paid for this, and you will maintaining the pool and then the priority.

For 3-4 % of blocks. Perhaps they will start and arms race with those efficient miners and grow their pool in time where this becomes more of a benefit.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: HostFat on September 21, 2015, 07:08:22 PM

By mining on their pool, with their device, your tx will always have high priority against all other tx from others users.
You have paid for this, and you will maintaining the pool and then the priority.

Exactly, and more importantly: you likely won't have to pay for transactions fees.

HostFat

staff

Activity: 4270

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I support freedom of choice

By mining on their pool, with their device, your tx will always have high priority against all other tx from others users.
You have paid for this, and you will maintaining the pool and then the priority.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: Mikestang on September 21, 2015, 07:01:00 PM

It's also funny that you can't buy it with bitcoin (yet...) because they don't think bitcoin should be used for purchases like this. Huh

Someone give me 50 million dollars, I can come up with terrible ideas all day long for half the price of these guys.

These are some of the brightest minds in Silicon Valley, give us a break...It's clear you are simply too simple to process what they're trying to do.

Topic: The 21 Bitcoin Computer - page 12. (Read 11856 times)