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Topic: The altcoin topic everyone wants to sweep under the rug - page 4. (Read 24383 times)

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
Seems they got wind of my posts about the legality of ICOs and disclosure.

Frankly saying, you overestimate your influence. Their asses are covered by legal entities created by a team of lawyers. Even if you are smarter than that team only the company will take the hit.

Hope their lawyers were really, really good:

There are a number of situations in which, where an offence is committed by a company and it is proved to have been committed with the ‘consent or connivance’ of a director, manager or other senior person, that person is also guilty of the offence. Examples of such provisions are to be found in many statutes creating criminal offences, including the Theft Act 1968, the Fraud Act 2006 and, more recently, the Bribery Act 2010. The rationale behind them is to enable the prosecution and punishment not only of the corporate entity but, where sufficiently culpable, those who control it. In other words, they provide a means of holding to account those who are complicit in offences committed by companies. 


So, under s14 of the Bribery Act, where an offence under s1 (bribing another person), s2 (receiving bribes) or s6 (bribery of foreign public officials) of the Act is committed by a company and that offence is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of a senior officer of the company, the senior officer as well as the company will be guilty of the offence. This provision only applies to the substantive offences under the Bribery Act – there can be no individual director liability in respect of the corporate offence of failing to prevent bribery.


Under this and similar provisions in other statutes, the corporate entity and the senior person who consented or connived are both guilty of the main offence, ie there is no separate offence of ‘consent or connivance’. A relatively recent example is Director of The Serious Fraud Office v Mabey Engineering (Holdings) Ltd [2012], where the engineering group Mabey & Johnson pleaded guilty to breaching UN sanctions by paying kickbacks to Saddam Hussein’s regime and three senior executives were subsequently convicted of the same offences on the basis of their consent or connivance. There is in fact no requirement that the company itself be prosecuted, provided the offence can be proved against it. Any prosecution of the relevant senior person would have to establish, to the satisfaction of a jury, that the company had committed the offence in question. 

Negligence


There are also a number of statutes creating criminal offences that extend the ‘consents or connives’ provision to include an offence committed by the body corporate that is attributable to any neglect on the part of the individual director or senior person. An example is s37 of the Health and Safety at Work Act (HSWA) 1974, which applies to all the criminal offences created by the Act (the vast majority of which, since January 2009, carry a prison sentence of up to two years). This broader basis for imposing liability is not, however, limited to health and safety matters. Similar provisions affect offences under statutes as wide-ranging as the Trade Descriptions Act 1968, the Companies Act 2006 and the Private Security Industry Act 2001, many of which carry significant custodial sentences.


The potential for criminal liability in these circumstances is more akin to the position in the United States where, in relation to certain offences concerned with public welfare (such as those relating to environmental protection and food safety), the ‘Responsible Corporate Officer’ (RCO) doctrine imposes criminal liability on officers who, because of their position in the corporation, had the responsibility and authority to prevent or correct infringements of the law.2 Crucially, corporate officers can be prosecuted under the RCO doctrine even if they were unaware of the particular conduct within the corporation, provided they: 


    knew that such conduct was unlawful;

    were ‘in a responsible relation to public danger’3 (ie had authority to exercise control over the specific activities that caused the unlawful conduct); and

    failed to prevent the conduct, for example by failing to implement suitable systems and controls.4 


Penalties under the RCO doctrine can be significant. In 2007, for example, Purdue Frederick Company was accused of misbranding the painkiller OxyContin. Its CEO, general counsel, and medical director were also charged under the RCO doctrine and pleaded guilty to charges of misbranding a drug. They were each sentenced to extensive community service, fined $5,000 and excluded from participating in federal healthcare programmes for 12 years.5 They were also collectively ordered to pay approximately $34.5m in disgorgement.

legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
Seems they got wind of my posts about the legality of ICOs and disclosure.

Frankly saying, you overestimate your influence. Their asses are covered by legal entities created by a team of lawyers. Even if you are smarter than that team only the company will take the hit.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
He's smart, he knows to diversify unlike n00b "investors" stampeding into hot potato du jour.

^This



Seems they got wind of my posts about the legality of ICOs and disclosure.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
You think all "ICOs" are manipulation.

I am confident they are ILLEGAL if publicly marketed to USA investors.

Maybe that's why it's important to know that the managers of these are not in the US, and in this case, neither is the company.
However, regardless of either of our ideas, if they were truly as "illegal" as you state (out of context), then there would be action being taken, and I don't see that going on.  (not to say that there are not scams, and intentional fraud, etc - a small %, like in every industry)

Also: citation?  If it's illegal, it has a link stating so clearly.  Of course, you've employed circular reasoning by using the term "investment", and begged the question.  Crytpocurrency is neither a currency, nor an investment in the eyes of the law.

Details of USA Securities Law is covered in the following thread:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/the-altcoin-topic-everyone-wants-to-sweep-under-the-rug-1218399

Making AMPS publicly available for sale to non-accredited USA investors makes the unregistered investment securities illegal even if issued by foreigners.

Greg Meredith will have a difficult time arguing that he was not promoting this, and he is a USA citizen. In my opinion he is taking a huge risk.

Greg @ Synereo is avoiding explaining all the specification and technology to us in terms we can understand. No excuses you can make for that which are valid. He is selling AMPs and not giving us information we can verify. That is an illegal prospectus. If Synereo didn't sell AMPs to the public, Greg et al would have no obligation to explain the technology in detail to us in terms we can understand and verify.

Edit: it is rather useless if I go expend my scarce time to become an expert in process calculi so that I could find game theory flaws in Synereo's process calculi approach to their hyped Attention Model feature. Because it would still be an asymmetric information market for the investors, as then they would be required to trust either my conclusions or Greg's (Synereo's). The only solution is for Greg to do proper disclosure by explaining the technology in terms that all AMP investors can understand. They have the time to produce a very exquisite website and consume hours every week on video Hangouts that do hyped handwaving on technical details, then they should also have enough time to explain the technology in sufficient detail that we can analyze without requiring us to become one of the few process calculi researchers on earth.


Greg never avoids explaining.  In fact, I've never heard him not add an invitation for more explanation if needed, to what he says in hangouts.

Verbal handwaving is not technical explaining. It is clever marketing to fool n00bs, but I know better.

Ask an informed question, and you'll get an informed answer.

I have stated what is needed. When the appropriate technical documents are made available, which expert programmers such as myself and smooth can understand and verify without needing to become process calculi researcher. We need sufficient technical detail so that we can verify if the system will do what he is claiming it will do.


Please don't reply to my post with more diversionary bullshit. It is getting very repetitive.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
You think all "ICOs" are manipulation.

I am confident they are ILLEGAL if publicly marketed to USA investors.

And no those weren't just my opinions. You will always try to distort what I wrote. How about you just state what you think about Synereo and stop trying to tell readers what I said. They can read my posts to see what I wrote.

Greg @ Synereo is avoiding explaining all the specification and technology to us in terms we can understand. No excuses you can make for that which are valid. He is selling AMPs and not giving us information we can verify. That is an illegal prospectus. If Synereo didn't sell AMPs to the public, Greg et al would have no obligation to explain the technology in detail to us in terms we can understand and verify.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198

Quote
Key Priorities: ... Fraud

Common Internet Scams: .... Investment Fraud

The wheels of justice grind slowly...

sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
Dash got "distributed" in the two crashes of 2014 and 2015

OK, we'll just take your word on that, mate.

And before you start showing us pretty pictures, be sure those pictures have owners' names attached. Makes for even prettier pictures.

Market theory insures he is incorrect. The majority buys at the top and sells at the bottom. The insiders have the advantage of seeing what percentage of the float is real (not them), so they know exactly where the bottom is and can buy it.



Market theory insures he is incorrect. The majority buys at the top and sells at the bottom

That wasn't the point. The point was availability.

A market is not a socialist politburo charged with ensuring equal distribution.

[...]

Thats why I don't have much sympathy with the accusations levelled at Dash on the basis of mining history. It's irrelevant now [...]

You move the goal posts but that still doesn't absolve your error.

The point is an overly centralized distribution can't become less centralized to attain a normal equilibrium that would have been possible without the instamine.

Free market is synonymous with decentralized market.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
Those giving the middle finger to the SEC are really risk takers:

He had paid over $35 million in assets handing them to his former attorneys in 2002 for restitution in the criminal case. He argued that the SEC has failed to show he had not been compliant with the government. The SEC contended that Durante was still on the hook for over $25 million to them.

So in other words, every agency can go after you for the same amount of money because Walker effectively held that if you paid even in full to one agency, it does not matter and cannot be credited toward another. There is absolutely no foundation in law for Judge Walker’s abusive pro-government decision.

Now this week, another contempt was imposed in New York City federal court confirming anyone who has any account tied to a New York entity should get the hell out of town and fast.  New York U.S. District Judge Paul A. Engelmayer on Tuesday said the founder of defunct hedge fund ThinkStrategy Capital Management LLC, who owes the SEC and others nearly $30 million, is still in contempt of court and must remain incarcerated indefinitely. Engelmayer said he was troubled by the lack of effort on the part of Chetan Kapur to show that he doesn’t have access to significant assets or to help his attorneys gain access to an email account which may shed light on whether or not he has funds in overseas bank accounts. In other words, he is in prison and will not be released until he PROVES he has no money overseas. The SEC has flipped the law so you are now guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

Many argue you cannot do business in Russia or China because they still lack the RULE OF LAW. I am sorry, but so does New York City. When I asked a lawyer in New York why the government never charges bankers; his response was telling: “You do not shit where you eat.” There is simply no hope to save the system anymore without a complete crash and burn.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
You don't even comprehend what I wrote.

Didn't read the rest, not interested in new excuses. Put me back on ignore, please.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
wait a sec shelby. shouldnt this be the job of the US non-accredited investors to decide what they can or cant do.

Originally I supported this perspective, which also seems to be supported by the actual history of the blueksky laws in the USA:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2679&context=fss_papers

What changed my mind is the altcoin arena has turned totally away from any sane decentralized designs to the proof-of-shit/stake designs which are really just MLM investment scams in disguise that prey on the gambling instinct in humans.

It is regressing the progress of our technologies, not advancing them.


More abstractly, you are essentially arguing that every member of society is an island and can protect him/herself from every threat alone.

Shouldn't it be the job of every citizen of a nation to defend themselves against a nuclear bomb using their handgun.

The reason the USA protects the little man from his own gambling instinct is because it is known to be an impoverishing addiction that leads to deleterious outcomes for society. Whether it didn't entirely come about for that reason, the public seems to support the regulation of gambling.

My more abstract generative essence statement on regulation is as follows. Any market which is not self-regulating, i.e. which is dysfunctional and not behaving as a free market, will end up regulated by special interests. My definition of "free market" is decentralized market. So the reason the altcoin market is not decentralized and is dysfunctional, is because of asymmetric information. The speculators entirely lack the ability to understand the technobabble. They entirely rely on a few "experts" to guide them. And thus the market does not function. It regresses.

What a pile of bull shit. Laws related to finances have only one real purpose - to help banksters to keep the current status quo. Of course, lawmakers pretend they work hard to protect us against terrorists/pedophiles/immigrants. There are only few people here who believes them.

You don't even comprehend what I wrote. It is far above your abstraction capacity.

When markets don't have decentralization (which in this case is centralized due to asymmetric information which is why only accredited or sophisticated investors are allowed because they have more motivation to become informed and have proven they will do their DD), then those effectively centralized markets WILL BE INEVITABLY regulated/captured by special interests. It is an inevitable outcome of the lack of a free market due to centralization (in this case asymmetry of information is a form of centralization of the market). Thus the market can't anneal to productive investment, due to the lack of decentralized decision making (e.g. all the fools rely on the information from a few "experts" who manipulate them).

And you forgot to point out that you are one of the special interests who are milking the fools and just as culpable as the banksters you try to deflect their attention to.

You are pretending you are the good car salesman and the banksters are the bad car salesmen. Nice one!  Wink

You’ll be greeted by a friendly sales person—and if he’s any good at what he does, he’s also personable and disarming.

What follows is a classic episode of the good-cop-bad-cop game with your salesman pretending to be arguing for you. I say pretending because the manager and your salesman work for the same organization, are both on commission, and both stand to benefit from you paying a higher price. They’re on the same side, get it?

This sad comedy plays out several times during the negotiations with the salesman conducting a physically impressive begging routine, while his manager makes exaggerated side to side motions with his face as if to say “definitely not”—all playing out in a corner office with glass walls so you can see the drama unfold inside. Finally, after your salesman has done “all he can”, the manager makes a quick guest appearance to deliver the let-me-give-you-our-bottom-line speech.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1010
Newbie
wait a sec shelby. shouldnt this be the job of the US non-accredited investors to decide what they can or cant do.

Originally I supported this perspective, which also seems to be supported by the actual history of the blueksky laws in the USA:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2679&context=fss_papers

What changed my mind is the altcoin arena has turned totally away from any sane decentralized designs to the proof-of-shit/stake designs which are really just MLM investment scams in disguise that prey on the gambling instinct in humans.

It is regressing the progress of our technologies, not advancing them.


More abstractly, you are essentially arguing that every member of society is an island and can protect him/herself from every threat alone.

Shouldn't it be the job of every citizen of a nation to defend themselves against a nuclear bomb using their handgun.

The reason the USA protects the little man from his own gambling instinct is because it is known to be an impoverishing addiction that leads to deleterious outcomes for society. Whether it didn't entirely come about for that reason, the public seems to support the regulation of gambling.

My more abstract generative essence statement on regulation is as follows. Any market which is not self-regulating, i.e. which is dysfunctional and not behaving as a free market, will end up regulated by special interests. My definition of "free market" is decentralized market. So the reason the altcoin market is not decentralized and is dysfunctional, is because of asymmetric information. The speculators entirely lack the ability to understand the technobabble. They entirely rely on a few "experts" to guide them. And thus the market does not function. It regresses.

What a pile of bull shit. Laws related to finances have only one real purpose - to help banksters to keep the current status quo. Of course, lawmakers pretend they work hard to protect us against terrorists/pedophiles/immigrants. There are only few people here who believes them.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
wait a sec shelby. shouldnt this be the job of the US non-accredited investors to decide what they can or cant do.

Originally I supported this perspective, which also seems to be supported by the actual history of the blueksky laws in the USA:

http://digitalcommons.law.yale.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2679&context=fss_papers

What changed my mind is the altcoin arena has turned totally away from any sane decentralized designs to the proof-of-shit/stake designs which are really just MLM investment scams in disguise that prey on the gambling instinct in humans.

It is regressing the progress of our technologies, not advancing them.


More abstractly, you are essentially arguing that every member of society is an island and can protect him/herself from every threat alone.

Shouldn't it be the job of every citizen of a nation to defend themselves against a nuclear bomb using their handgun.

The reason the USA protects the little man from his own gambling instinct is because it is known to be an impoverishing addiction that leads to deleterious outcomes for society. Whether it didn't entirely come about for that reason, the public seems to support the regulation of gambling.

My more abstract generative essence statement on regulation is as follows. Any market which is not self-regulating, i.e. which is dysfunctional and not behaving as a free market, will end up regulated by special interests. My definition of "free market" is decentralized market. So the reason the altcoin market is not decentralized and is dysfunctional, is because of asymmetric information. The speculators entirely lack the ability to understand the technobabble. They entirely rely on a few "experts" to guide them. And thus the market does not function. It regresses.



You need a Nash equilibrium for security aspects, but you also need one for adoption.  If someone premines the entire coin and has the market cornered by design on day one, there's zero incentive for anyone to adopt it when the issuer and his cronies have such advantage over everyone else.  You're just replicating central banking except the value of central banking units is derived through coercion, and without it, it would have no value.

Which is precisely why it can't become a "value transfer system" where that is supposed to mean a currency and unit-of-exchange, and not a transfer of value from gamblers and fools to snakeoiltechnocoolbabble salesmen.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
ICO is not illegal, it's just crowdfunding. If you do some projections about future profits this is illegal.
Actually when you do ICO you're selling a product - token in a value transfer system.

That is sort of what I originally thought, but then I realized I was wrong.

The Supreme Court has said it will look past all obfuscations to the economic reality of whether the n00b investors were basing their expectations of future profit on the future actions of the centralized party issuing the tokens and developing the enterprise which the investors are investing in.

Realize I am doing you a big favor. Cancel the ICO immediately and keep yourself out of trouble. Stay focused on being a developer and not involve yourself in this legal tarpit.

Where is the "value transfer system"? I see only tokens sold to speculators hoping to make a profit on the rise in exchange price on a few centralized exchanges populated only by speculators. Afaik, the Waves product isn't even ready to ship to actual users of a "value transfer system", how could it be a value transfer system.

The tokens were not distributed for use as a currency. There is no significant use of the tokens for exchanging value for any purpose other than speculation on the price of the tokens.

One way to make it even less dubious, is don't sell the tokens to the adopters of the "value transfer system" so that they don't need to be speculators to justify obtaining the tokens.


You're a troll and you know it Smiley

How so?

Hey I am genuinely trying to launch a "value transfer system". So I think I know the difference between selling tokens versus creating a "value transfer system". What is your rationalization that what you are pre-selling is primarily a currency and not a primarily a speculation  Huh

I mean come on, just give me one reasonable argument. Isn't it obvious that you are no where near having a currency, but do have many pumpers running around this forum with a Waves banner on their signature.

You can sell an ICO legally I presume. One thing you could have done is get a lawyer and have him advise, e.g. blacklisting USA non-accredited investors.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
I just want you to be consistent and go the authorities if you think you are witnessing such tremendous crimes.
In my (german) society there is the concept of "unterlassene Hilfeleistung" which google translates as  "failure to render assistance", which is a crime in itself where I come from. To me you are guilty of either that or of hypocrisy.

I am rendering assistance with all my research here.

You have no right to compel me to force the SEC to do something, which I don't have the power to force them to do. That is entirely disingenuous. You are playing a game here. Re-read my prior post; I added another example of your disingenuous tactics.

In german law there is the concept of "unterlassene Hilfeleistung", "failure to render assistance".  You areI am culpable of not doing everything in yourmy power to save those poor new investors, which makes youme a culprit/co-conspirator as well. Up to 5 years in prison in Germany, don`t take that lightly ("Nichtanzeige geplanter Straftaten"; § 138 of german penal law).

ftfy

I don't live in Germany. We have no such law in the USA. Do you enjoy incriminating yourself.




In german law there is the concept of "unterlassene Hilfeleistung", "failure to render assistance".  You areI am culpable of not doing everything in yourmy power to save those poor new investors, which makes youme a culprit/co-conspirator as well. Up to 5 years in prison in Germany, don`t take that lightly ("Nichtanzeige geplanter Straftaten"; § 138 of german penal law).

ftfy

I don't live in Germany. We have no such law in the USA. Do you enjoy incriminating yourself.

Poor USA. How can the "society" turn a blind eye on the vicious people witnessing severe crimes without helping?
I can`t see the crimes, so I have no reason to go to the police and I am confident that a judge would believe me.
But you and smooth are sooooooooooooooooooooooooo sure about ongoing crimes you are witnessing for 2 years and you STILL do nothing to stop it. GO. TO. THE. POLICE. Fast.

Quoted for your government's future investigations. In addition to your boastful defiance of USA law and I suspect international treaties of the G20 to mutually enforce each other's laws, you may have an even bigger problem. Apparently you may be promoting and condoning what may be illegal actions under German securities law:

http://uk.practicallaw.com/1-501-2097#a165703 (pay attention to the "open market" case)
http://uk.practicallaw.com/1-501-2097#a376738
legendary
Activity: 984
Merit: 1000
It`s just that I am appaled by his hypocrisy. I would not waste my time on internet forums if I was witnessing alleged crimes comparable to rape and murder (his words) but go straight to the authorities.

You said it is all about freedom. I retorted you by pointing out that society decides which actions are free to do and not to do. I am being consistent in my logic. You are being arbitrary. You want to obey, respect, and enforce society's laws against rape and murder, yet you want to disobey, disrespect, and avoid enforcement of society's laws against selling hyped investment securities to n00bs.

If you continue to be disingenuous in your argumentation, I will just ignore you as impossible to have a rational debate with. Ceti can guide you with irrational and disingenuous logic.

I just want you to be consistent and go the authorities if you think you are witnessing such tremendous crimes.
In my (german) society there is the concept of "unterlassene Hilfeleistung" which google translates as  "failure to render assistance", which is a crime in itself where I come from. To me you are guilty of either that or of hypocrisy.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
It`s just that I am appaled by his hypocrisy. I would not waste my time on internet forums if I was witnessing alleged crimes comparable to rape and murder (his words) but go straight to the authorities.

You said it is all about freedom. I retorted you by pointing out that society decides which actions are free to do and not to do. I am being consistent in my logic. You are being arbitrary. You want to obey, respect, and enforce society's laws against rape and murder, yet you want to disobey, disrespect, and avoid enforcement of society's laws against selling hyped investment securities to n00bs. Sometimes civil disobedience is justified. But how can you justify fooling n00bs for your own profit in a zero-sum game. There is no idealistic outcome from that. It is a race to the gutter.

If you continue to be disingenuous in your argumentation, I will just ignore you as impossible to have a rational debate with. Ceti can guide you with irrational and disingenuous logic.

Edit: I caught him being disingenuous again:

It is easy to say "the information is out there" but it isn't always easy to find everything especially for people (such as Tone and Trace) who are involved with a lot of different activities and have limited time to spend researching any particular coin.

That`s why I had suggested you compile a document with all the info you consider vital to be put on Dash.org. I would support that. I am all in favor of transparency and imho the DASH team has nothing to hide.
Of course (audiatur est altera pars), the DASH team would be allowed to a response.
In case you kept bitching about the instamine after that, it would help the poor new investors in determing what your agenda actually is.
Who knows, maybe you and your buddies are the ones they should be warned about?

That information has already been compiled:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/why-the-darkcoindashdashpay-instamine-matters-999886

smooth don't fall for this disingenuous game. This is a well known obfuscation tactic. The opposer will demand you do more work to repeat the work you already did, and will demand this over and over again even after you repeat it N times, until you get tired and give up.
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