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Topic: The Barry Silbert segwit2x agreement with >80% miner support. - page 19. (Read 120014 times)

newbie
Activity: 48
Merit: 0
Well, fucking FUDster have made it. Now u come here and ask again, OMG, what s gonna happen, we re all DOOMED!

There will be no fork, SegWit2x will be implemented and BTC price will bounce back. The only ones who ll lose money are re u panic pumpers. On the other hand, that should be the case. Ignorant idiots should be deprived of their money.

Segwit will be implemented indeed. Either before or on August 1. Not sure about the 2x part though.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1007
DMD Diamond Making Money 4+ years! Join us!
Well, fucking FUDster have made it. Now u come here and ask again, OMG, what s gonna happen, we re all DOOMED!

There will be no fork, SegWit2x will be implemented and BTC price will bounce back. The only ones who ll lose money are re u panic pumpers. On the other hand, that should be the case. Ignorant idiots should be deprived of their money.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000
and  btc goes under $2000  Grin Grin Grin
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
I got a bad feeling about this.
I do as well, the market is currently crashing, am afraid this is going to destabilize the currency in such a way that it may never or will take a long to recover. Not everyone is in agreement with the implementation.
Where by "crashing" is only 3x higher than it was 8 months ago (and only 5x higher than was 14 months ago). If only all of my investments sucked so badly.  Roll Eyes
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
...Disciplinary action -  Grin Grin Grin Grin. What next disciplinary against against miners/users/developers. Who is going to be the judge and jury of dishing out disciplinary action in a decentralised environment. It's all rather comical.
It's simple. It's by invite only; you show up, you talk about it, you don't get an invite to the next one.
Quote
The first rule of Fight Club is....
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000

Sadly I am not rich. My story is tragic and if you do some research you will find out why. I was into bitcoin almost from the very beginning. I am strong believer in the bitcoin dream but overall bitcoin has brought me a fair bit of sadness. But like your first love you never quite forget her nor completely erase her from your heart. Such is life and some of us just have bad luck and that's just the way it is. I prefer not to talk about it and just move on. Only small minds dwell on the past.



Instead of researching why... you might as well save as a lot of time and tell us.

I would assume:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/i-just-got-hacked-any-help-is-welcome-25000-btc-stolen-16457

Ouch. What is this Arron Barr character then?
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1007
DMD Diamond Making Money 4+ years! Join us!
OP, people like you always complain about BTC centralisation.

Well, whatever proposal it is in the end, it would have to be designed and implemented by someone, a group of people at best. So there s no other option but to make it centralised in a sense someone s got to provide it and make decision which option to choose. You cannot expect Satoshi himself to offer a solution for this or BTC community gets in charge of implementation. Similarly, there ll always be people against it, whatever soltution is the leading one.


I say, 90% of pools want it, these re the ones who invested millions into BTC infrastructure, it seems fair for them to make decisions about it.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 250
I got a bad feeling about this.
I do as well, the market is currently crashing, am afraid this is going to destabilize the currency in such a way that it may never or will take a long to recover. Not everyone is in agreement with the implementation.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000

Well if we're quoting Falkvinge on Segwit, we may as well reference his better work, such as his synopsis of Satoshi Roundtable:
http://falkvinge.net/2017/01/26/impressions-satoshi-roundtable-iii/


In a speaking slot of mine, I stood up and made the observation that we (people in the room) are acting like a Toyota boardroom who are trying to make a decision that every family should buy the latest Toyota model. “It doesn’t work like that”, I said. “We’re not the Soviet Politburo commanding a planned economy. The reality of the situation is that we’ve made the market an offer, and the market is rejecting our offer.” I made the point that thinking the market should behave differently, no matter how good your reasons, is not going to make the market behave differently in the slightest. The Toyota boardroom doesn’t get to decide what car a family should buy, and the present company does not get to decide what code miners run on their own machines. The world isn’t fair, but instead of complaining about it, play the cards you’ve got on your hand. Give your client what they want and you both benefit.

I think that quote nails this whole year-long agonizing about Segwit perfectly, and in hindsight will be the Bitcoin history books.

The third Satoshi Roundtable has just concluded in Cancún, Mexico. The Roundtable is a private gathering of 100 movers and shakers within the bitcoin industry, with no media present, and it’s held under Chatham House rules – meaning everybody can use the information shared at the meeting, but never disclose who said what or their affiliation.

Same as The Bilderberg Group. Secrecy can not be permitted in decentralised environment.



This right here bothers me severely! Why in the hell are we replicating the same power structures that we purportedly seek to destroy. *Sigh*

This illustrates the failed decentralization of bitcoin.  One shouldn't "complain" that people are having secret gatherings.  If those secret gatherings have any potential EFFECT, it means that bitcoin was prone to collusion (and hence wasn't decentralized) in the first place.

Complaining about this is a bit like complaining that you have a cryptographic protocol, but that there are people having secret meetings about how they can crack your cryptographic system.  If you are to be afraid about people trying secretly to crack your system, then it means that your crypto system is worthless.  If a system claimed to be decentralized has to fear the "secret gathering of a few hundreds of individuals", then it is not decentralized.

Just as with cryptography, one should say: "try to collude as much as you can, try to modify bitcoin to your hand, the more you do so, and the more you fail, the more you prove that our concept of our system is working correctly, because it was designed to resist exactly that".

The big failure of bitcoin is that its protocol is made such that it NEEDS to be modified, which can only be obtained by breaking its resistance to power (that is, the ability of some to change its rules).  So bitcoin will fail technically (because of block limit) unless it fails conceptually (because centralized and power structure).


The secret meeting isn't the problem but this is, "but never disclose who said what or their affiliation."

One of the rules.

Q. How is the Rule enforced?
A. Chatham House will take disciplinary action against a member or guest who breaks the Rule; this is likely to mean future exclusion from all institute activities including events and conferences. Although such action is rare, the rigorous implementation of the Rule is crucial to its effectiveness and for Chatham House’s reputation as a trusted venue for open and free dialogue.

Disciplinary action -  Grin Grin Grin Grin. What next disciplinary against against miners/users/developers. Who is going to be the judge and jury of dishing out disciplinary action in a decentralised environment. It's all rather comical.
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God
♪♫ If I had a million dollars...
I'd be rich ♪♫
legendary
Activity: 1789
Merit: 2535
Goonies never say die.

Sadly I am not rich. My story is tragic and if you do some research you will find out why. I was into bitcoin almost from the very beginning. I am strong believer in the bitcoin dream but overall bitcoin has brought me a fair bit of sadness. But like your first love you never quite forget her nor completely erase her from your heart. Such is life and some of us just have bad luck and that's just the way it is. I prefer not to talk about it and just move on. Only small minds dwell on the past.



Instead of researching why... you might as well save as a lot of time and tell us.

I would assume:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/i-just-got-hacked-any-help-is-welcome-25000-btc-stolen-16457
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1000

Sadly I am not rich. My story is tragic and if you do some research you will find out why. I was into bitcoin almost from the very beginning. I am strong believer in the bitcoin dream but overall bitcoin has brought me a fair bit of sadness. But like your first love you never quite forget her nor completely erase her from your heart. Such is life and some of us just have bad luck and that's just the way it is. I prefer not to talk about it and just move on. Only small minds dwell on the past.



Instead of researching why... you might as well save as a lot of time and tell us.
newbie
Activity: 6
Merit: 0
Man I don't like how rushed this is at all, still waiting on production ready code 2 weeks prior to August 1. Arg
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2534
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale

Well if we're quoting Falkvinge on Segwit, we may as well reference his better work, such as his synopsis of Satoshi Roundtable:
http://falkvinge.net/2017/01/26/impressions-satoshi-roundtable-iii/


In a speaking slot of mine, I stood up and made the observation that we (people in the room) are acting like a Toyota boardroom who are trying to make a decision that every family should buy the latest Toyota model. “It doesn’t work like that”, I said. “We’re not the Soviet Politburo commanding a planned economy. The reality of the situation is that we’ve made the market an offer, and the market is rejecting our offer.” I made the point that thinking the market should behave differently, no matter how good your reasons, is not going to make the market behave differently in the slightest. The Toyota boardroom doesn’t get to decide what car a family should buy, and the present company does not get to decide what code miners run on their own machines. The world isn’t fair, but instead of complaining about it, play the cards you’ve got on your hand. Give your client what they want and you both benefit.

I think that quote nails this whole year-long agonizing about Segwit perfectly, and in hindsight will be the Bitcoin history books.

The third Satoshi Roundtable has just concluded in Cancún, Mexico. The Roundtable is a private gathering of 100 movers and shakers within the bitcoin industry, with no media present, and it’s held under Chatham House rules – meaning everybody can use the information shared at the meeting, but never disclose who said what or their affiliation.

Same as The Bilderberg Group. Secrecy can not be permitted in decentralised environment.



This right here bothers me severely! Why in the hell are we replicating the same power structures that we purportedly seek to destroy. *Sigh*

This illustrates the failed decentralization of bitcoin.  One shouldn't "complain" that people are having secret gatherings.  If those secret gatherings have any potential EFFECT, it means that bitcoin was prone to collusion (and hence wasn't decentralized) in the first place.

Complaining about this is a bit like complaining that you have a cryptographic protocol, but that there are people having secret meetings about how they can crack your cryptographic system.  If you are to be afraid about people trying secretly to crack your system, then it means that your crypto system is worthless.  If a system claimed to be decentralized has to fear the "secret gathering of a few hundreds of individuals", then it is not decentralized.

Just as with cryptography, one should say: "try to collude as much as you can, try to modify bitcoin to your hand, the more you do so, and the more you fail, the more you prove that our concept of our system is working correctly, because it was designed to resist exactly that".

The big failure of bitcoin is that its protocol is made such that it NEEDS to be modified, which can only be obtained by breaking its resistance to power (that is, the ability of some to change its rules).  So bitcoin will fail technically (because of block limit) unless it fails conceptually (because centralized and power structure).


I do not see why any meeting has an effect to the underlying Nash equilibrium at all? What would we all do when we detect the incoming  centrality? Buy more coins?

And I always think that a puristic prototcol and open client competition would solve lots the modification issues.
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629

Well if we're quoting Falkvinge on Segwit, we may as well reference his better work, such as his synopsis of Satoshi Roundtable:
http://falkvinge.net/2017/01/26/impressions-satoshi-roundtable-iii/


In a speaking slot of mine, I stood up and made the observation that we (people in the room) are acting like a Toyota boardroom who are trying to make a decision that every family should buy the latest Toyota model. “It doesn’t work like that”, I said. “We’re not the Soviet Politburo commanding a planned economy. The reality of the situation is that we’ve made the market an offer, and the market is rejecting our offer.” I made the point that thinking the market should behave differently, no matter how good your reasons, is not going to make the market behave differently in the slightest. The Toyota boardroom doesn’t get to decide what car a family should buy, and the present company does not get to decide what code miners run on their own machines. The world isn’t fair, but instead of complaining about it, play the cards you’ve got on your hand. Give your client what they want and you both benefit.

I think that quote nails this whole year-long agonizing about Segwit perfectly, and in hindsight will be the Bitcoin history books.

The third Satoshi Roundtable has just concluded in Cancún, Mexico. The Roundtable is a private gathering of 100 movers and shakers within the bitcoin industry, with no media present, and it’s held under Chatham House rules – meaning everybody can use the information shared at the meeting, but never disclose who said what or their affiliation.

Same as The Bilderberg Group. Secrecy can not be permitted in decentralised environment.



This right here bothers me severely! Why in the hell are we replicating the same power structures that we purportedly seek to destroy. *Sigh*

This illustrates the failed decentralization of bitcoin.  One shouldn't "complain" that people are having secret gatherings.  If those secret gatherings have any potential EFFECT, it means that bitcoin was prone to collusion (and hence wasn't decentralized) in the first place.

Complaining about this is a bit like complaining that you have a cryptographic protocol, but that there are people having secret meetings about how they can crack your cryptographic system.  If you are to be afraid about people trying secretly to crack your system, then it means that your crypto system is worthless.  If a system claimed to be decentralized has to fear the "secret gathering of a few hundreds of individuals", then it is not decentralized.

Just as with cryptography, one should say: "try to collude as much as you can, try to modify bitcoin to your hand, the more you do so, and the more you fail, the more you prove that our concept of our system is working correctly, because it was designed to resist exactly that".

The big failure of bitcoin is that its protocol is made such that it NEEDS to be modified, which can only be obtained by breaking its resistance to power (that is, the ability of some to change its rules).  So bitcoin will fail technically (because of block limit) unless it fails conceptually (because centralized and power structure).
hero member
Activity: 770
Merit: 629
Although I do agree with many people that this feature is "not Bitcoin" as some say, why the hate for it?
So there are 3 main complaints people make about lightning network and these are a combination of partly true, part misconception, and complete FUD

1. Purists believed the blockchain was good enough for all transactions and the proverbial "cup of coffee" purchases could be done on-chain simply through micro bitcoin transactions. It's clear now that if we had all of VISA's transactions worldwide, in its current form the blockchain would need to have 2GB sized blocks to sustain that volume of transactions. Current technology and even anything we can perceive in the immediate future makes that impossible with transmission of new blocks generated, propagated and stored in a distributed manner. The counterargument is we'll only slowly get up to that size; it won't happen overnight and we'll find a way between now and then to do it.

I think this is wrong already.  It is based upon the belief that bitcoin's decentralization (that is, the spread of the powers of decision in bitcoin over a lot of non-colluding entities) has something to do with the amount of copies that are kept around the world on different storage apparatus (Joe's node in his basement). 

It is indeed not feasible to spread 2 GB blocks every 10 minutes to EVERY JOE node in his basement, because there are many Joe that won't invest a few $1 000 in the necessary equipment.  As such, your statement is right.  But the fundamental mis-understanding here, is that Joe's copy of the block chain matters AT ALL in the decentralization of bitcoin's decisions.

Only 20 entities make all those decisions: the mining pools.   These entities are the sole entities being able to even MAKE a right block chain.  It only takes the chain of HEADERS to VERIFY that the chain of headers you have, is the "best block chain" and even to make a failed imitation of it would cost a fortune and would easily be detected.

So in reality:

1)only about 20 entities BUILD the sole block chain out there
2) every smart phone in the world can easily check that he has the right header chain downloaded, made by these 20 entities (can check the proof of work in that header chain).

Once you realize that, you also realize that the only entities that REALLY NEED to have this full chain with 2 GB blocks, are those 20 entities ; but of course, anyone willing to invest enough in it, can have that chain too - only, apart from big users like exchanges, THERE IS NO POINT in having this amount of data:
a) possessing it, and transmitting it, doesn't change ZILCH to the decision process in bitcoin (whether you have these data or not, doesn't alter the decisions that the sole authors of the block chain, the 20 entities, make)
b) you can verify for yourself that the sole true chain out there corresponds to the headers which ARE very small and independent of the block size
c) those needing it, are so much invested in bitcoin in any way, that for THEM there is no problem in having these data transmitted and stored quickly and smoothly.  (exchanges and mining pools DO NOT HAVE technical problems with such volumes, not more so than any serious data center has in serving such kinds of volumes which are small to other internet usage).

==>  there is strictly no technical problem for the involved entities to process so much data, even as of today, and all the others DON'T NEED IT and it doesn't serve any purpose of "decentralization"to have your own copy of the block chain - but if you WANT to you still can.  For reasons of privacy, or because you want to do chain analysis and try to break other people's privacy.

The "waste of storage resources" for those few entities serving the block chain (because they are also the sole entities MAKING the block chain, and taking all decisions on it) is ridiculously small as compared to the inherent waste of resources imposed by proof of work, wasted by those same entities.  In other words, given all the wasting that goes on in bitcoin, the "block chain size" issue is microscopic and irrelevant.
This whole debate is meaningless ; the blocks can have just any size, only a few copies need to be available to users and we're talking about amounts of data far inferior than most middle sized data centers are already handling with a smile.  There's nothing "decentralized" in working as a distributed proxy in your basement for the sole chain that is out there and on which you have, in any case, nothing to say.

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3. LN is centralised instead of distributed and blockstream will will run it. Lightning nodes can be run by "someone" but that doesn't mean it will all be held by one entity. It is possible to run a node of your own though it is highly likely that several competing services will come out using the same protocol and people will use that in preference to running a complete full blockchain node and lightning node on top.

It is fairly obvious that if you run LN nodes for profit (and you have to, because otherwise it will be lossy with all the settlement fees), the economies of scale scale strongly with committed capital, making big hubs able to offer much more competitive LN channels to customers than small users. 

legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1080
@allinvain The more things change is the more they stay the same.


Too bad this forum has no way I can upvote your reply cause this deserves a big thumbs up!

"What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun"

On a different note and more on-topic it seems segwit2x support intention went down lol! Yar, there be rough seas ahead mateys!
legendary
Activity: 3080
Merit: 1080

You and I are not very far apart in our perspective, so it is very likely that we would get along pretty well, even if we were arguing while drinking beers.... hahahaha

I might call you a fucker, and you dont take it personally, and come back with some similar retort..  Cheesy

Definitely! Plus I like drinking beer too! Smiley Also I think I am a reasonable guy and I have no hidden agenda or axe to grind in this crypto currency space.

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I was all with you in the paragraph and cheering for you, until we got to the bolded part above.  

It's like you have the impression that the core team are a bunch of lazy slugs.  I just think that your premise is not correct. Even if as laypeople, we have some difficulties figuring out who is performing the spam attack, I think that the sudden discontinuance of the spam attack shows that there is a certain level of cost that is involved in attempting to keep up that appearance.. maybe even risk, too?

I don't think they are lazy slugs. They very conservative because they kind of have to be. Being conservative and careful is good, but as long as you aren't so conservative that you stagnate. Like I said previously sometimes you have to be a bit bold. Even with the spam attack bitcoin worked, just not as its users liked. At the end of the day people will see bitcoin sort of as a utility. They expect it to work without any fuss or hassle.

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An underlying suggestion of yours seems to be that either bitcoin is in a kind of emergency broken status or it is on the precipice of such broken status due to lack of proper preparations to address issues, such as the spam attack.  I really don't think that a supposedly simplistic upgrade from 1mb limit to 2mb limit is going to be sufficient to address the matter - and there is a likely hidden agenda anyhow. These fuckjobs that are attacking the network are not really benevolently attempting to help fix bitcoin because they believe a 2mb limit is helpful, instead they merely want bitcoin to become more moldable (in other words changing governance - which would likely cause bitcoin to become a tool of the rich, the bankers and the governments to make bitcoin less of a disruptive threat to status quo institutions).  So, even if they got their 2mb upgrade they would likely ask for more .. unless the 2mb is somehow coupled with a kind of change in governance precedence that allows any fucktwad whiner to whine away until being able to accomplish a change - and that is seeming to be what they want - even if they don't proclaim to be seeking such... take Roger Ver for example.. he proclaims to have good intentions, but when you hear him talk, his is a bag of emotions that makes little sense, and a lot of folks in that group are parroting similar kinds of ideas and perspectives -even if they proclaim that they came up with the ideas on their own.

I don't think it's broken. It has minor "flaws" that are there in any peer to peer network (relating to the transaction spam problem). I agree that simply increasing the blocksize is not a magical fix. What saddens me is that we knew about this issue long time ago. Core has 3 years if not more to address this issue. Bitcoin as it is suits the current user base perfectly fine and is technically sound, however we as a community have to come to some consensus as to what we want bitcoin to be. Do we want it to be "money by the people for the people" or a niche system for gold bug refugees and financially conservative nerds? If we (and I use that term in the democratic sense of a majority) want it to be used by as many people as possible then would it not stand to reason that network performance has to increase? If I was on the Core team the moment I saw btc price appreciate like crazy I would've put some smart people together and do some serious brainstorming to come up with technically sound ways of increasing transaction throughput. SegWit is an apparent piece of that solution yet look that it hasn't caught on as the Core team had hoped. SegWit is their baby and no doubt they Core team has some emotional ties to their ideas. They put out the idea and it was nearly rejected. What should they have done? Try again with something new?

I don't know much about Roger Ver, but I know for sure that money does not buy you wisdom nor intelligence. Wisdom is a quality that cannot be obtained at the crypto lottery. Ideally we should have both technically brilliant and wise people at the helm of the bitcoin titanic. That's the tragic part of anything we do as humans. Bitcoin could be the next best thing to sliced bread, but if has a hostile or negative culture/community with poor leadership figures it will all fall to fragmented pieces.

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It has been framed as a problem that likely does not exist at any kind of level that is even close to how it is framed.  It is largely a made up issue in order to change bitcoin's governance and attempt to undermine the processes followed by core because some of the folks do not like some core members and attackers are frequently emotional about this whole desire to peronsonalize the situation and to proclaim that core is biased and blah blah blah.

So you think it was all overly exaggerated? Perhaps. Actually most likely yes. There is a lot of propaganda back and forth sadly. My head hurts from all of this.

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That is assuming that seg wit goes through and the various gamesmanship does not undermine segwit going through and locking in.

It will go through - at least attempt to - no matter what on August 1'st due to UASF. Now the question is whether the UASF segwit chain will be viable. Jihan Wu and his ilk could easily attack the segwit chain by choosing to hard fork and mine a different chain. I think they said somewhere that it's precisely what they intend to do - combat BIP 148. Nuts!




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It seems that each of us is engaged in these kinds forums and conversations because bitcoin is a constant learning situation and we are attempting to engage and learn; however, when I look at your profile, I see that you have known about bitcoin for more than twice as long as me...   Cry Cry   You must be rich...  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Don't you like it when folks assume you are rich if you been in bitcoin longer than them?

Sadly I am not rich. My story is tragic and if you do some research you will find out why. I was into bitcoin almost from the very beginning. I am strong believer in the bitcoin dream but overall bitcoin has brought me a fair bit of sadness. But like your first love you never quite forget her nor completely erase her from your heart. Such is life and some of us just have bad luck and that's just the way it is. I prefer not to talk about it and just move on. Only small minds dwell on the past.

legendary
Activity: 3892
Merit: 11105
Self-Custody is a right. Say no to"Non-custodial"
I am wondering if you and I could drink beer over these kinds of differing perspectives?  I am kind of inclined to think that each of us would be frustrated in such a conversation, so we would not really be able to get through our first beer, right?  

Aww gee, I was just assuming that we'd move on to other topics by the second round.


That's fine, we could talk about the weather and maybe family matters in order to attempt some semblance of sanity.

On the other hand, you're such an obsessive nerd, so probably you would cajole me into playing poker with your Big Blocker specialty deck of 104 cards (plus jokers of course)..  

I can hear you now:  "Here JJG, how about a friendly game?"





Stop string posting JayJuanGee, its against the forum rules, and you doing it so often here. Use HR (horizontal rule) to separate replies to different people in one of your post only.

Well, aren't you a useless douche  Roll Eyes


@JayJuanGee feel free to post as usefully as you do and not create 1 post with multiple non-linked conversations in it like this one.

@allinvain The more things change is the more they stay the same.



Hahahahahaha...    Wink

I had similar thoughts about who the fuck died and left Variogam in charge?




PS:   Thanks to -ck for unlocking this thread in order that we can attempt to stay on topic.   Cheesy Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 1092
Merit: 552
Retired IRCX God


Stop string posting JayJuanGee, its against the forum rules, and you doing it so often here. Use HR (horizontal rule) to separate replies to different people in one of your post only.

Well, aren't you a useless douche  Roll Eyes


@JayJuanGee feel free to post as usefully as you do and not create 1 post with multiple non-linked conversations in it like this one.

@allinvain The more things change is the more they stay the same.

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