Topic: The Bitcoin Machine - page 2. (Read 738 times)

Wouldn't a Chromebook be a good alternative in between a second hand laptop and a new RPi?
Chromebooks are very cheap for the hardware you get, just add a large microSD card to store the blockchain.

Disclaimer: I've never tried this.

Ohh right, you mean they could base the product on an Intel NUC. Well sure, but then what is there even left to do for them They could actually just buy NUCs, install a prepared ISO file which includes OS, all software, blockchain download up to a certain point and ship it out. No need for custom case and SATA adapter.
But yeah it kind of makes sense. This product is an SBC with SATA board, power supply and case, which is basically exactly what the NUC is already.

Only thing it would lack would be the screen. So we're looking at just putting a NUC inside a box and attaching a screen. I mean at that point they could also just sell the ISO (without blockchain download maybe ) for download and people can buy NUCs on their own ^^

Me and others already mentioned that just getting an old laptop (which is basically the same hardware you find in NUCs) can be cheaper and more performant than building something yourself with a Pi with everything new. However, I think the biggest point for ARM devices like Raspberry Pi and the like is the power consumption. If you don't care about power consumption, you could even argue that a laptop is 'small enough' or compact enough (which would be the other point of getting something Pi-based).

As an example for an all-in-one NUC solution; I can find second-hand NUC with 16GB RAM, 256GB SSD and 1TB HDD for under 400 bucks. However laptops with same specs can be got for 200ish.

Off topic already, but since we are doing price comparisons, a cheap laptop would cost around $200 to $300. Add a 1 TB SSD and you can run a full node, has more cores, has more memory (or maybe the same) ... But is not as small as a raspi, or as low power usage.

If you're doing all these sorts of experiments, a rack server, if you have the space for it, or even some desktop workstation, refurbished, and you can install your own OS and virtual machine and stuff, and run a bunch of nodes, all for under $600?

The bitcoin machine fits a very specific purpose, and all other small pi machines.

It's not ideal, but I've been running my full node from a laptop, now it's on my desktop (just copied the block files), because it's on 24/7. Full node since 2012.

Same here but at the moment, there's none on where I'm residing.
^{- Thank you for the link}

Not sure about the first two, but AFAIK MicroCenter is based in the US and I can't receive packages from there and despite knowing a few workarounds, I'd prefer to purchase it from a local reseller ^{[unfortunately, that means an unofficial one]} so I don't have to deal with customs here ^{[they tend to ask for licenses if someone else already imports such items to the country (it's ridiculous and not worth the trouble)]}.

It's possible ^{[third image]}: Bitcoin Machine LCD with Bitcoin and Satoshi Logo (ver 0.4)

Bitcoin Machine is not for everyone but I think it's still a cool project with decent price of average smartphone people usually change every few years, and it reminds me on BlockClock project by Coinkite with that nice display.
I don't know if it's possible to show Bitcoin blocks on display or only price and temperature, but github is showing it's very customizable so maybe it's possible.
If you don't care about your privacy or running your own node, than you obviously don't need this.

I usually try to find official distributors for most products to make sure I get good genuine first-hand products. In the case of Raspberry Pi, you can select your location and find shops here.

It seems right now, Makerbright just has a 7 day lead time, not too bad. Maybe the others (which declare it as sold out) will be as fast, though. CanaKit also has some in stock if you get it as a 'starter kit' with SD card. And MicroCenter has it 'Available for In-Store Pickup Only'.

So, calculated in euro with tax added, it came out to around 430€ for the 'Bitcoin Machine' and around 300€ to build it yourself with this case (100 bucks) or 240 with a cheaper case that has no screen. There is a good markup, sure, but 150 shouldn't be enough to DIY it (even before tax) and it's manual labour to set them up, sync them and see that all runs fine & these guys surely have to pay fees to run their business and whatnot.

I checked MicroCenter website: Pi = $75, MX500 1TB = $100, Argon One m.2 = $50, PSU = $6. The total is $231.

I mean: even the 1TB SSD that you buy at MicroCenter for 99 bucks cost them way less to produce; that's normal Everything's highly marked up for the end-consumer ^^ I once read that supermarkets have around 70% markup on most stuff.

I don't want to continue this further, because I may put my effort into this for nothing as it gets off-topic. That's why I'll (try to) only respond once.

You're thinking this falsely. Let me ask you a question; if you were born in China, and were used into living in a communist society, do you think you'd be unhappy? Do you think Chinese are unhappy with the system of government they serve? I believe that even if some disagree with this polity, they're used in living under these circumstances.

It's easy to judge if you're outside China and born in a capitalistic country which is “freeing” than that. (With a thousand of quotation marks)

You may call a dog, which eats once a day, a poor dog, as you think it's unhappy, but in reality you're imagining yourself under these circumstances which seem horrible since you eat much frequent than once a day. The dog is fine; it has used into living this way.

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Again, in my opinion, I find this Bitcoin machine pricy.

Opposite how?
All you phones, gadgets, computer chips and devices are coming from communist country called China.
In communist and socialist countries people are always complaining and wanting something cheaper and free, because government ''knows'' better.
You have ''free'' health care and bunch of other things, than you want free basic income and in few decades you end up in ruins.
Working people in China are almost slaves, and they have second class citizens in prison camps who are real slaves.
That is the price of CHEAP stuff.

Oh poor you, they are totally exploiting you, those evil capitalist from India  

Of course and it's possible to purchase the stuff on your own. You're discouraging me to do it, though, if I don't know how or if I find the procedure difficult. Let's be honest, from those $429, what exactly am I paying for? A RPi 4, a 1TB drive and a bunch of other cheap accessories which all cost less than $150, but let's assume they do cost that much.

 429
-150
 ----
 $279

So, I revert back. Don't you find it too much money for a stranger to set me up this? It looks rather exploitation to me.

You don't have to be ironic to provide your point of view. Also, in a communist country you don't get everything for free, but rather the opposite.

From https://thebitcoinmachines.com/terms-and-conditions/


So it looks like they are in India.

Where are you located? Most places seem to be out of stock on RPi units but all the places I looked at seem to have arrival dates of the next batch from early to mid October.
Give it a few weeks more due to the issues of shipping anything at the moment you should be able to have one in a month or so.

-Dave

Does anybody know if this is another US-based company or not ^{[they haven't listed that information on their website]}?
- As a last resort, I might go with such a thing if it doesn't ship from the US.

• I had no luck in finding any of the Raspberry Pi models locally and I prefer to not order one ^[separately] from another country.
• I couldn't find a reasonably priced VPS plan for running a full node.
• I'm a bit paranoid about running Bitcoin Core on my desktop or laptop while using the same network connection.
  ^{- Can someone convince me that I should stop worrying about its potential risks?}

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I agree with everybody that said it's overpriced but looks like we're forgetting about the normal ^{[for the most part]} markup percentages:

• Quote from: DaveF on September 30, 2021, 08:18:30 AM
  So it looks like they are in India.
  
  Thank you, Dave
  ^{- I only used certain keywords to search on that page with a CTRL + F [I didn't expect it to be from India, I'm impressed with its overall design].}
  
  
  Quote from: DaveF on September 30, 2021, 08:18:30 AM
  Most places seem to be out of stock on RPi units but all the places I looked at seem to have arrival dates of the next batch from early to mid October.
  Give it a few weeks more due to the issues of shipping anything at the moment you should be able to have one in a month or so.
  
  So that's why I couldn't find any of those locally ^{[I would probably wait for another month to see if I could get my hands on one of these]}.
  ^{- Again, thank you for providing useful information, I appreciate it}

Right, it can be much more than 20, I was just throwing out ballpark order-of-magnitude numbers! I'm not sure about my exact size though.

Yup, almost there! Shut down the old node, moved all funds etc., now end of week probably going to reinstall OS, Core, reverify blockchain and recompile c-lightning cleanly without plugins at first (I believe those caused some issues). OT over

I'm siding with DaveF here. If we install the OS and all software on our own, we will at least have verified each download and compiled it for ourselves. Instead a device with everything installed doesn't provide this certainty. It could easily be a forked version of either software with some little modifications that you can't notice in normal usage. Even if you're not a security expert and didn't check the code yourself, at least when DIY, you know you're running unmodified official release.

There are 2 arguments for DIYing this: price and security. When it comes to price, I agree: some people would be at a loss if doing it themselves, if their [hourly wage * time to set it up] is larger than the difference between DIY and buy. So in that case it depends on how much someone earns and how much time they need to set the node up. Students like to DIY lots of stuff since their wage is so low that it usually makes sense not to pay someone for it. But if you earn more and / or have little experience with Linux, it may be better to avoid DIY.
However, there will always be the issue of security if you don't 'DIY' this, since you haven't verified the software, which can be a larger or smaller concern based on what you want to do with it.

I'd argue if you don't store any funds on it anyway, there's no risk really. A plain full Bitcoin node can be run without any funds on it and provide the same functionality as if funds were added. It just changes if you want to be a Lightning router.

The price that appears is a little expensive for the average user, as most of those who runs a full node are either obsessed with privacy (will not trust third parties) or they are inexperienced (there is no need to manage a full node.)


It is suitable for a small store or commercial store that accepts bitcoin and pays with the lightning network, but it is better to modify it a little to be a point of sale (a full node, hardware wallet, a screen to display the QR code and currency rates)
It's convenient and quick to set up. All you need is a few clicks and an Internet connection, waiting for syncing or the option to trust a third party.

Then a price of $600 or even 800 would be appropriate.

Personally, I see the device in its current form are useless.

Maybe you will, but I just gave you one example, you are using bunch of other stuff all day long, including Bitcoin Core and all other wallets, computers and phones.
Sure, any device connected with Bitcoin can be a magnet for abusers, but I can say that for anything else, your computer is magnet for viruses and malware, internet and governments are magnet for abuse but you still pay your taxes like a good boy  

We are also taking a leap of faith when we are running Bitcoin Core, your phone and your computer, so we can just reduce the risks, unless we are security code experts with big brains.

Yeah, I think you should move to some communist country (if you are not living there already) and demand to get everything for free.
Let's see how far you get.
Why do you purchase anything when in theory you can make anything your own, right? Wrong!

I am running ElectrumX and its database currently takes up exactly 71 GB of space! That's... a lot. Is anyone here running a different implementation so that we could compare the numbers?

By the way, n0nce are you going to set up your own node any time soon?

But, like I said above it's the cost of having someone do it for you.
You can go and buy the parts yourself. And assemble it yourself. Or you can have someone else do it.

I look it as no different then having someone do work on my car that I can do myself.
I can get a set of good brake pads for $49 and install them myself. If I want the shop to do it it's going to cost me about $75 in labor.
So I can spend $49 for the front and $49 for the rear and do it myself or I can spend $250 and have someone else do it.
If I did not know how to do it, or did not have the tools, or the time, or.... then I would have to spend the $250.

Same here, I can build it, so can you but not everyone can. So why not let someone have a bit of profit.
And also, as I pointed out above. That is the price that all of the 'nodes in a box' are. Give or take a few dollars. So it seems to be a workable price point.

-Dave

@NotATether, @n0nce, I think Umbrel's point is very clear: Buy 1TB of storage, sleep easy for the next half decade. If you gave me 500 GB of storage, I'd knew that if I run both main net and test net plus electrs plus any other extra application (such as related with LN), I'd start feeling that it may not last for more than two years with the abrupt increase of the chain's size.

I also remember installing myNode and being notified that I'd soon run out of free space while I was running it from a 1TB external disk. The applications these OSes use do eat a lot of space somehow.

I would build any node with 1TB as well to be honest. I think Electrum needs like 20GB or so as cache. Blockchain, some indexes, Electrum and Lightning node software do get uncomfortably close to the 500GB limit of your disk and then you're going to tell a noob to replace the SSD in a year and reinstall everything by themselves?
The size difference of the SSD is also not what makes this device expensive anyway As I showed you can build it DIY 1:1 the same for 240. But not everyone wants or can do it. If it turns out to be too expensive, they will have to reduce the price or go bust, so I would say: we will see, let the market decide

Why would an Electrum server need to weigh several dozens of GB in storage space? (At least that is what I think you are implying).

Testnet is only around 30GB large or so.