Topic: The difference between government instituted currencies and Bitcoin is huge. - page 2. (Read 5109 times)

Come to the united states, we have cookies! Also, lots of debt and a promise to pay backed by a fucking massive mercenary army.

Oh- you wanted to send some cash back to the homeland? Sorry, fuck you, you are a terrorist.

First, list all the monetary theories you have read.   You don't even want to see my library.   I bet your using the United States because that is the "only" one you know and you live their. 


How about this, the U.S. dollar has already failed by some metrics.   Nation is close to GDP.   Is has lost 98% of its value since its current inception (FRN), even while it had a mandate to maintain purchasing power.  We have unfunded liabilities to the order or 54 trillion dollars and growing.   We import over 70% of all our finished goods.  And to top it off, we still import over 14 million barrels of oil a day, ON A DEFICIT.   

So tell me by what measure can you even compare the two?

Huh?? That last part was really confusing. You almost cast this horrible light on expressing opinions. I don't get it.

Don't sit here and try and play stupid after you went off and wrote a bunch propaganda against Bitcoin and then you sit here trying to get sympathy because you can't not express your word properly.   You are a joke,  I will give every person the ability to grow and learn, so who knows, maybe we will even be friends?   Until then, why not try reading and listening more before you come here throwing around such large opinions here that you know is going to get people on here expressing their own.  

D

The irony is your mode of attack is so unoriginal. Assuming an agency sent me.. Ok, that's already a 2011 thing to say. "Shill" oh geez, when will that one die. "first order troll". Gee, it's like the more you deflect, the less YOU must account for the words and opinions others. If anything you are the "shill", but I really hate to use that word.

There's no point in posts of your nature. Why? because you are not saying anything original. You are simply uttering the popular sentiment. Please only return if you're bringing original content.

The OP is utter garbage.   The whole reason Sastoshi made BTC was to take control of a exchange unit out of the control of few people and put it into a different system of management.   I think this is just trolling of the first order.  No one said BTC was the solution, just an alternative.   What ever agency sent this shill should please try and give a higher quality shill in the future.

D

You don't wish to be welcomed?

OK. Get the fuck out, asshole.

Was that mean enough?

That was a huge post by SimonL.  SimonL went out of his way to explain the differences between USD and bitcoin.  If that doesn't budge ridgemont then nothing will.  Although ridgemont did admit bitcoins have black market uses.

You are aware that even USD will be made completely digital here over the next few years right? Citation needed here, but it has been directly stated that the goal of our(USD) currency is to go completely digital by 2017. Would that not bother you then, as you slowly get less and less control over your own money? As banks and goverments basicly gain a 'kill switch' over your worth?

Unlike others here I'm gonna have a go at addressing your concerns and help reason this out.

Your fear, as I understand it, is that because there is no authority to regulate the value of Bitcoin, then it will catastrophically fail one day when natural market forces suddenly swing into a bank run when some individual, agent, company, etc. sells en-masse huge numbers of coins or commits some action that panics the market and there's a massive incentive to bail out of Bitcoin. Your other posts say that you are confident that cryptographically and procedurally Bitcoin is not in danger, simply that the value of Bitcoin is not controlled by an overseeing agency. OK? ok.

Something you distinguish as critical defining qualities of the USD and BTC is:

• USD value is regulated by the Federal Reserve.
• BTC value is not regulated and only subject to market forces.

On the surface that looks to be a big difference but consider a further, fundamentally defining attribute.

• Federal Reserve can create infinite credit to introduce more USD and impose "interest rates" to mitigate credit created.
• Bitcoin has a limited supply, and fixed distribution rate. No credit.

Now, as I understand it, the Federal Reserve's purpose was to help stabilise massive economies and help prevent catastrophic crashes by creating credit to ease huge losses (essentially bail out banks) and impose interest rates in the good times to help mitigate credit introduced into the financial system (this is obviously a very simple description, and I could be wrong). The Federal reserve's initial purpose was to regulate the supply of money created by banks so inflation didn't destroy the currency, but also soften the impact of crashes in the future (I think this is why in 1907 after the crash the fed was created https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve).

Now if you noticed, USD has absolutely no distribution control, credit into the system and interest rates is largely controlled by the Fed at the whim of men in skyscrapers wearing expensive suits that are corruptible, flawed and terrifying. Bitcoin on the other hand doesn't need a central authority controlling distribution because it is already mandated how new money is created and a HARD limit on the maximum amount of money circulating in the system is very tightly controlled. Everyone that uses Bitcoin agrees to this, without exception or reservation.

What this leaves us with is the market itself. In a USD market swings in growth or a contraction in growth can be artificially slowed by the Fed. But this is also ripe for abuse, wars can be quickly funded by creating more money, as well as bailing out institutions "too big to fail", without needing to hold anyone to account. It means bad men can be kept in power and no-one will necessarily be held to account. Manipulating the money supply to small degrees doesn't adversely affect rich individuals, governments, or corporations very badly but it means the buying power of middle class and lower class is severely undercut as inflation slowly undermines the value of what little dollars they have (this means the rich stay rich since they have a huge supply of money on hand, but the middle/lower class get hit much harder financially, since they have little/nothing for when bad times arise) . Interest rates also hit the middle and lower classes the worst too. Whats more, Democratic systems can't change monetary policy since the Fed is an independent non-governmental entity.

The Bitcoin market however is a wily and uncontrolled beast as you imply. I believe the answer is a bit more grey though. In the early stages of the Bitcoin economy (like now) we will definitely have fluctuations in value that are largely beyond control, it is Bitcoin's wild west we are experiencing right now. Caveat emptor should be the catch-cry for Bitcoin novices. But the fact is that very few people have Bitcoins, the distribution is not thin enough that a single individual's buying power won't cause massive swings as large buys and sells are made. But over time as Bitcoins get distributed among more users, the Bitcoin supply slows, more businesses trade in Bitcoin, and more miners enter the race to validate blocks, I believe we'll see the value of Bitcoin reach a stable level. Bitcoinica also demonstrated how trading mechanisms can help minimise trader's fears and help stabilise Bitcoin value, lets hope another, better implemented and planned trading platform fills this gap. Bad news, and mad rushes as a new part of society embraces Bitcoin as the next big thing are definitely growing pains that we will all experience to a greater or lesser extent. An overseer could "stabilise" this, but we must weigh up the good with the bad here. Any human intervention on value is entirely corruptible, regardless of what "safety mechanisms" are put in place. The USD's Fed system is probably the worst of them all, and I for one would never want a Fed-like system, or even something similar with human(s) at the helm "Benevolently" keeping our Bitcoin's value safe. As long as Bitcoin remains useful, stable (code-wise and cryptographically wise), and well supported by the mining community, Bitcoin's value as a currency is fairly well assured. It needs no overseer.

Trust the market, or trust the Fed. Only one of these has no agenda over the value of your money.

That's not true either. It's not like your comment was left in a corner to rot. A lot of people are conversing with you. You've been selectively replying to less helpful comments. I've asked you these questions:

• Which problem with USD can you hold someone responsible for, that also exists in Bitcoin?
• Do you really think that the judicial system excludes Bitcoin? What about law enforcement?
• This one is extra: Do you think that banking/insurance is not possible with Bitcoin?

One more thing. Using Bitcoin is easy. It's not harder to use than any other form of money. But, just as people must have experienced with the introduction of new forms of payment in the past, you have to wrap your head around many new concepts and become able to reason about them clearly. At that point Bitcoin is immensely beneficial. It doesn't make sense to reduce the benefits of Bitcoin to make it more like traditional currency + banking system (interestingly you aren't talking about one or the other, you are talking about the amalgamation of both) in order to hasten adoption, it's best to patiently wait for people to take the leap. Maybe the most beneficial thing about Bitcoin isn't the tool itself, it's the modes of thinking it allows.

He has the security of having the option of just walking away, sell his bitcoins and stop using it. If you can't see the difference between that and governments I suggest you go to your government and tell them you'd like to leave your country without having to pay anything and without any further obligations.

Btw you also clearly misunderstand the 51% attack and what it can do.

Ha. This is the internets where authority is not required, my friend.

Im not offended. Btw, all I did was confirm everything you said.  I agrees there is greed.  I agree that bitcoin may not be for you.

Why are you speaking to me in Spanish? I'm not Hispanic. and please refrain from "welcoming" me anywhere. You are nobody besides a poster on a Bitcoin forum. What authority do you have to welcome me anywhere? and yea, argue all you want. I'm not arguing anything just stated how I feel. If my opinions offend you... well maybe you're the one who needs a reality check. Opinions are all around us. Speaking of grandmothers, my grandmother is more tolerant than some of you.

sounds like you should stick with usd.  bitcoin at this point in time is not ready for Gavin's grandma but when it is perhaps you will be ready to use it.

welcome to the real world, mi amigo.  yes there is greed all around us. I argue, however, that wallstreet has more greed than bitcoiners.

That's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the true value of Bitcoin and I see a comparison with the United States. Both were created to fulfill mans greed, not mans need. The current United States does nothing for me. Neither does the current Bitcoin. and I don't think anything can change the way humanity works. This is just how it is, and we are doomed to spiral into chaos because greed is the master of most. I also believe Occupy Wall Street was inspired by greed. Anyway, the US dollar is not backed by gold.. If you think that's true, that's very laughable. It's backed by perception, just like Bitcoin at the moment, and I have yet to see the ground upon which those perceptions stand, because I really don't think it exists.

Don't get me wrong. I really wish Bitcoin was practical and actually I do believe it has the potential to be useful. It's just that the community really doesn't exist in a way that would allow it to flourish. Greed is on the forefront of the minds of those who participate in this. How you can get yours rather than how others can get theirs. For example, why would I want to accept Bitcoins when there is that chance someone could steal and leave no trace? Who am I going to cry to for help? Everyone will laugh and point, saying, you fool! you used those pesky Bitcoins and now you got robbed. Even the Bitcoin community will laugh because they will tell me I should have set up this system, or that system, etc.

What the MAIN Bitcoin site needs to do is offer true security of your wealth. an intricate accounting system for every Bitcoin is the beginning in solving this. Plus this needs to be something easily understood and communicable to those who have a short attention span of interest. People don't have much time to waste these days. If you cannot convince people easily to use it, they won't. And I have yet to be convinced myself because I really do not like how it works right now. It's too difficult, too anonymous, too elitist, swaying toward those "in the know". I feel like a prey, wasting my time chasing these coins when I can't even trust their method of storage. Maybe you can, but I can't. Doesn't matter what layers of security I've taken. Without accounting for every Bitcoin, so that each one can be traced, there's no security in my mind.

ridgemont, ok, so the USA is responsible
for USD.  what about gold? who is
responsible for gold?

Funny, you said muck.. then I noticed your sig. and I knew someone would turn it back on me and ask what I need help with.. Well that's great if one or two out of 1000 are willing to help. but even that small percentage of helpful will turn their back as issues grow larger and more complex. I believe Bitcoin is elitism favored at the core, what I mean by that is the elite are favored and they show no mercy to the non-elite who dare to not be convinced of the structure of Bitcoin. and to be honest I'm making this thread, not because I think I can change anything, or to directly ridicule anyone. I've posted these thoughts an opinions firstly because I believe them, the power is available for me to post, and in the end I think I will be proven right and probably censored so I had to get it out while I can. Also, because I was bored. Sort of like the founding fathers of the United States who, probably in moments of boredom, sat down and predicted what is happening today. I'll dig up some of their quotes later on and post here. I truly believe that the founding fathers did not really have faith in their country. It was more of a positive attitude projected outward, rather than a truly convinced belief that the system was immune to evils.