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Topic: The financial markets are starting to crash, abandon the fiat titanic - page 5. (Read 7763 times)

donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1015
Financial markets are starting to crash?? -But commodities are, too. It's like we have spiraling (and unmeasured) deflation right now. Have you been to the gas pump, lately? It's time to buy all the things on near-0% interest loans!

thats exactly why there is about to be another round of QE of unseen scale.
all western governments are deep in debt, they absolutely can not afford to have deflation, they will drop sacks full of cash from airplanes if they have to.
It does make me wonder where the Hell the money's gone. Who's been stuffing the trillions under their mattress? Is it an effect of traders/banks seeing a coming deflation crisis and making a self-fulfilling prophecy or outright market manipulation? I mean, banks which decide outright to stop lending, instead hording cash, and maybe convert to an insurance company -- seems like they'd be all set to come out of a deflationary crisis as the world's overlord.

ETA: -Or just a weak economy, I guess. Low money velocity in bad market.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
...
just keep on walking with the rest of the sheep to your financial slaughtering.

Robert Paulson, straying from the heard doesn't make you a lion.
You're still a sheep, albeit a maladjusted one.  With a substantially lower life expectancy Undecided

you are dead wrong.
if you exit paper assets right now and buy into gold/bitcoin when all the other fools still believe the papers are going to make it you are the father of all lions.

I trade Bitcoin, Robert.  I don't touch gold.
You are a wayward sheep, not a lion.  Now get back to the heard before you get run over by some passing 18-wheeler.
And thank your lucky stars that our Beneficent Reptilian Overlords like lamb chops Smiley

if you only trade bitcoin instead of saving it and you don't touch gold then i am afraid you will be left with nothing in the coming years.
i understand you, it is very difficult to say the emperor has no clothes no matter how good the evidence is, humans are programmed to go with the herd, if it wasn't so we wouldn't be in this dire situation in the first place.
i only hope you are young enough to start over when this is all over.

Sure Robert, even a cat can look at a king. And I certainly don't mind if you do, but do know your place--you're in no position to judge one.
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Financial markets are starting to crash?? -But commodities are, too. It's like we have spiraling (and unmeasured) deflation right now. Have you been to the gas pump, lately? It's time to buy all the things on near-0% interest loans!

thats exactly why there is about to be another round of QE of unseen scale.
all western governments are deep in debt, they absolutely can not afford to have deflation, they will drop sacks full of cash from airplanes if they have to.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1015
Financial markets are starting to crash?? -But commodities are, too. It's like we have spiraling (and unmeasured) deflation right now. Have you been to the gas pump, lately? While gas prices continue downward, practically every other good will follow suit after some lag. It's time to buy all the things on near-0% interest loans!
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
Wrong. Bitcoin is or can be money (it's fungible, transactable, and has a value). But to me Bitcoin is more an asset, a store of value, rather than a currency. Bitcoin is entire independent, if bitcoin were to be affected by external markets that's only because the people thought it to be. But by its very nature, Bitcoin is absolutely independent and decentralized.

It could be money. But it isn't and it never will be.

If it is to succeed, it will be as a means of making money transfers or payments, but with the units of account that everyone is primarily concerned with being, Dollars, Euros, Pounds, Shekels, Yen, etc.

The most important ingredient behind any monetary standard is the authority that stands behind it and enforces it's use as money and that is because the #1 property of 'money', is that people have confidence in it. This even applies to the use of precious metals as money throughout history. Gold and silver coin also required some sovereign power somewhere, who was willing to recognise the metal tokens as being of value, or at least for a small fee, who was willing to the melt the metal coins and remint them into a form which was recognised as having value. This will never apply to Bitcoin.

What we might get is some kind of asset backed digital currency based around crypto technology, with all the pernicious aspect's of the Bitcoin block chain built into it. One wallet per global citizen. All economic transactions fully traceable.


bitcoin is the ultimate form of money because it has all the monetary properties of gold but its easier to secure and transport.
bitcoin has no use except as a monetary system and yet the free market chose to value each bitcoin 360 times more than each USD, and thats without anyone forcing people to accept it at the point of a gun.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
...
But what if just one country accepts taxes in its own currency and also in Bitcoin? What would the other countries do?

What would make a country intentionally dilute its own currency?
sr. member
Activity: 448
Merit: 250
...
just keep on walking with the rest of the sheep to your financial slaughtering.

Robert Paulson, straying from the heard doesn't make you a lion.
You're still a sheep, albeit a maladjusted one.  With a substantially lower life expectancy Undecided

you are dead wrong.
if you exit paper assets right now and buy into gold/bitcoin when all the other fools still believe the papers are going to make it you are the father of all lions.

I trade Bitcoin, Robert.  I don't touch gold.
You are a wayward sheep, not a lion.  Now get back to the heard before you get run over by some passing 18-wheeler.
And thank your lucky stars that our Beneficent Reptilian Overlords like lamb chops Smiley

if you only trade bitcoin instead of saving it and you don't touch gold then i am afraid you will be left with nothing in the coming years.
i understand you, it is very difficult to say the emperor has no clothes no matter how good the evidence is, humans are programmed to go with the herd, if it wasn't so we wouldn't be in this dire situation in the first place.
i only hope you are young enough to start over when this is all over.
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 280
Wrong. Bitcoin is or can be money (it's fungible, transactable, and has a value). But to me Bitcoin is more an asset, a store of value, rather than a currency. Bitcoin is entire independent, if bitcoin were to be affected by external markets that's only because the people thought it to be. But by its very nature, Bitcoin is absolutely independent and decentralized.

It could be money. But it isn't and it never will be.

If it is to succeed, it will be as a means of making money transfers or payments, but with the units of account that everyone is primarily concerned with being, Dollars, Euros, Pounds, Shekels, Yen, etc.

The most important ingredient behind any monetary standard is the authority that stands behind it and enforces it's use as money and that is because the #1 property of 'money', is that people have confidence in it. This even applies to the use of precious metals as money throughout history. Gold and silver coin also required some sovereign power somewhere, who was willing to recognise the metal tokens as being of value, or at least for a small fee, who was willing to the melt the metal coins and remint them into a form which was recognised as having value. This will never apply to Bitcoin.

What we might get is some kind of asset backed digital currency based around crypto technology, with all the pernicious aspect's of the Bitcoin block chain built into it. One wallet per global citizen. All economic transactions fully traceable.



Interesting approach.

But what if just one country accepts taxes in its own currency and also in Bitcoin? What would the other countries do?
sr. member
Activity: 263
Merit: 280
...
just keep on walking with the rest of the sheep to your financial slaughtering.

Robert Paulson, straying from the heard doesn't make you a lion.
You're still a sheep, albeit a maladjusted one.  With a substantially lower life expectancy Undecided

you are dead wrong.
if you exit paper assets right now and buy into gold/bitcoin when all the other fools still believe the papers are going to make it you are the father of all lions.

I trade Bitcoin, Robert.  I don't touch gold.
You are a wayward sheep, not a lion.  Now get back to the heard before you get run over by some passing 18-wheeler.
And thank your lucky stars that our Beneficent Reptilian Overlords like lamb chops Smiley

The one and only lion is Janet Yellen.
All others, and we all, are sheeps.
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188

Here you go folks - the relevant statement starts at 0:53

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRzr1QU6K1o

Without that statement, the Fed wouldn't have been able to send that graph sky high like it's done. (Think multiplying Peercoin's coin supply x 4 overnight and getting away with retaining its price - thereby multiplying its marketcap FOURFOLD on coinmarketcap.com at the roll of the printer).
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1188
The OP Robert Paulson is right.

The banking system has always been a ticking timebomb ever since 1970 when Nixon took the lid off that silly idea of "limited supply" in order to pay for the Vietnam war.

When people say that "Bitcoin is inflationary" I don't think they quite understand what they're talking about. Bitcoin's monetary base (as distinct from retail price inflation) currently inflates at around 10% per year, dropping to 3% in 2020 and less than 2% by 2025.

The beloved dollar, on the other hand, has gone from a monetary base of around $850 billion to $2800 billion in the space of 5 years. Thats more than a 300% expansion of the monetary base. If you don't think that is a recipe for some major economic upheaval in its own right then you don't understand money.



The only reason this isn't causing rampant hyperinflation right now is that the world financial system has become so highly centralised over the last 30 years that central banks have managed to hang onto just enough control of markets to prevent the natural arithmetical devaluation of fiat currencies. This would have happened in any free market simply due to the numbers alone. Take a look at http://coinmarketcap.com for example and imagine if Peercoin's coin supply went from 21million to 80 million overnight. It would get dumped faster than a hot brick.

One of the ways the Fed has done this for example is to suck all the new money back onto their own balance sheet by offering a higher rate of interest on excess reserves. The other place all that new money has gone is into the stock market - chased in their by rock bottom interest rates which has turned cash deposits into a hot potato that nobody wants.

So, far from reflecting an underlying level of corporate growth, the stock market is now simply serving as a holding pen for all the excess cash from QE.

Add to that the fact that this new money has come at a huge price. Due to the nature of our fractional reserve lending system, it can only be created by creating an equivalent amount of debt.

The bottom line is this: The banking system (and several sovereigns) are loaded with so much debt that the major Western economies + Japan CANNOT AFFORD AT ANY COST TO ENTER INTO A DEFLATIONARY TREND. The reason they can't is because that would herald the onset of defaults caused by debt to GDP ratios going beyond manageable levels and markets sending bond yields sky high due to loss of confidence.

So the OP is well reasonable in suggesting that we're headed for major turmoil. There are simply too many stretched central banking "tricks" that are now reaching the end of the line.

Another way to look at it is this: Regarding the 2008 banking crisis - it was never solved. The debt did not get extinguished, it just got hung on a different coat hook. There are 3 coat hooks:

[1] - private sector over leverage (where it all started)
[2] - sovereign balance sheets (i.e. taxpayers on hook)
[3] - central bank monetisation (Weimar wheelbarrow land)

In Japan and the US, we've reached stage 3 who's effects are currently being mitigated by attempts to stop markets from appropriately revaluing currencies according to today's money supply (an outcome which will not last). In Europe and the UK, we're at stage 2 about to go to stage 3.

The current stock market dip is being caused by 2 things:

[1] - the "threat" of QE wind down (the pump that blows up the Stock Market balloon)
[2] - Draghi's press conference 2 weeks ago which basically amounted to the ECB announcing that they were throwing in the towel on European growth.

That Draghi press conference represented the end of a 2 year phase of optimism kicked off by his 2012 "ECB will do everything it needs to to save the Euro" speech which saved the Mediterranean bond yields from blowing the eurozone apart. The compromise was that Eurozone growth would rescue the situation once it appeared over the next 2 years.

Well, it hasn't appeared.

In fact, European deflation is now on the cards due to lack of transmission of ECB monetary policy into the commercial banking sector so this sets a whole knew scene and Draghi's 2012 bluff has been called - successfully it turns out because he's now stepped back from the precipice of full Eurozone QE and gone for a limp program of "Covered Bond Buying" (under massive pressure from Germany I'm sure who happen to be owed a tidy half trillion Euros by the rest of the Eurozone due to Target2 imbalances plus they're not too fond of wheelbarrow-based economic policies).

The numbers involved in all of this are colossal. I don't know if people quite realise it - never mind the derivatives exposure that's all stacked on top of it.

Contrary to the nonsense being posted challenging the OP, things definitely are lining up for a perfect storm - either in the next few months or couple of years. Who knows how long they can keep the plates spinning, but at some point one of them is going to be dropped and there aint no soft landing available on this side of the financial horizon.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
I've noticed the markets falling over the end of the last week but didn't think much of it. If you're right, there should be a continual sell-off over the coming weeks.

This has already been done but.......



Here is your crashing market:

hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
What doesn't kill you only makes you sicker!
There are a lot of pretty graphs on this thread but can anyone say if this bubble will crash in the next minute or the next decade?

it will crash before the end of 2015.
the fed actually believes it can stop QE this month and increase rates in the first half of 2015, otherwise there would be no taper to begin with.
the reason the markets are starting to meltdown is because no one wants to be left holding the bag on stocks when the rates go up, which is why everyone are starting to rush towards the exits right now in an attempt to be the first out.


I've noticed the markets falling over the end of the last week but didn't think much of it. If you're right, there should be a continual sell-off over the coming weeks.
hero member
Activity: 840
Merit: 1000
Wrong. Bitcoin is or can be money (it's fungible, transactable, and has a value). But to me Bitcoin is more an asset, a store of value, rather than a currency. Bitcoin is entire independent, if bitcoin were to be affected by external markets that's only because the people thought it to be. But by its very nature, Bitcoin is absolutely independent and decentralized.

It could be money. But it isn't and it never will be.

If it is to succeed, it will be as a means of making money transfers or payments, but with the units of account that everyone is primarily concerned with being, Dollars, Euros, Pounds, Shekels, Yen, etc.

The most important ingredient behind any monetary standard is the authority that stands behind it and enforces it's use as money and that is because the #1 property of 'money', is that people have confidence in it. This even applies to the use of precious metals as money throughout history. Gold and silver coin also required some sovereign power somewhere, who was willing to recognise the metal tokens as being of value, or at least for a small fee, who was willing to the melt the metal coins and remint them into a form which was recognised as having value. This will never apply to Bitcoin.

What we might get is some kind of asset backed digital currency based around crypto technology, with all the pernicious aspect's of the Bitcoin block chain built into it. One wallet per global citizen. All economic transactions fully traceable.



sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254
Bitcoin is not money nor a store of value.

Damn it. I'm doing it wrong again because that's how I've been using it for the past several years.

I always screw this stuff up...

Then you probably think that your CC is money too.
sr. member
Activity: 266
Merit: 250
Looking forward to seeing how bitcoin market does on a stock market crash.

The debt ceiling drama is coming this March, after they postponed it last year. So there should be some good ingredients for a nice panic stew.

Bitcoin is not money nor a store of value.

Even if Bitcoin goes to $10'000, it will only ever be a means of making payment (in fiat currencies).

If the markets collapse then Bitcoin goes down with it. It's that simple.



Wrong. Bitcoin is or can be money (it's fungible, transactable, and has a value). But to me Bitcoin is more an asset, a store of value, rather than a currency. Bitcoin is entire independent, if bitcoin were to be affected by external markets that's only because the people thought it to be. But by its very nature, Bitcoin is absolutely independent and decentralized.
sr. member
Activity: 378
Merit: 254

I trade Bitcoin, Robert.  I don't touch gold.

Depending on the country you live in I would reconsider that. If not gold checkout silver, copper, or nearly anything that would have actual use in production. There are a lot of "what if" situations where all-in bag holding of bitcoin could seriously leave you in a bad spot but far fewer of those potential situations when talking about precious or industrial metals.

I trade Bitcoin, I don't hoard it.  Sure, gold has intrinsic value, but that's an insignificant fraction of its price.
I don't follow the gold market.  Just not my thing.
legendary
Activity: 4116
Merit: 4738
You're never too old to think young.

blah blah blah


I don't see how that would necessarily be the case. Care to expand?

Please don't quote the trolls.
newbie
Activity: 31
Merit: 0

I trade Bitcoin, Robert.  I don't touch gold.

Depending on the country you live in I would reconsider that. If not gold checkout silver, copper, or nearly anything that would have actual use in production. There are a lot of "what if" situations where all-in bag holding of bitcoin could seriously leave you in a bad spot but far fewer of those potential situations when talking about precious or industrial metals.
hero member
Activity: 700
Merit: 500
What doesn't kill you only makes you sicker!

Bitcoin is not money nor a store of value.

Even if Bitcoin goes to $10'000, it will only ever be a means of making payment (in fiat currencies).

If the markets collapse then Bitcoin goes down with it. It's that simple.



I don't see how that would necessarily be the case. Care to expand?
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