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Topic: The legitimate purpose of military... - page 3. (Read 4961 times)

full member
Activity: 199
Merit: 100
If you can't model people's behaviour with reasonable accuracy, then why do you keep trying to promote changes when your assumptions are flawed?

People will tend to do more of things that:
  • are Easier
  • are Less Expensive
  • make them Happier

People will tend to do less of things that:
  • are Harder
  • are More Expensive
  • make them less happy
hero member
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
The problem is,  your model is not consistent with reality.
Oh? Free trade has not improved service and product in every industry to which it has been applied?

Actually, free trade has created absolutely gigantic problems.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Are you claiming that the understanding of human nature has reached (or surpassed!) the level of understanding of physics represented by the IC engine?  
No, I'm saying you're the asshole standing on the side of the road yelling "Get a horse!"
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Yet you still can't explain the existence of government.
Oh, I did that a while back.

Imagine you're a neolithic tribesman...
...
And you call it the State.

That doesn't sound very realistic, especially not if it was Baldrick's cunning plan to offer protection services despite not being very big and strong, or smart. And besides, you were unable to envision Alice and Alicia and Co. colluding to form an empire. Why not?
Oh, I wouldn't say that. They certainly could collude to form an empire. But it would be unstable for all sorts of game theory reasons.

Has something fundamentally changed about human nature since ancient times when, e.g.: the Balkans were rebuilding in the post-Yugoslavia era?
Nope. But nothing changed about the laws of physics when the internal combustion was invented. We just came up with a better way of using them.

Are you claiming that the understanding of human nature has reached (or surpassed!) the level of understanding of physics represented by the IC engine?  
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
The problem is,  your model is not consistent with reality.
Oh? Free trade has not improved service and product in every industry to which it has been applied?

The only "x" that you can reasonably claim to change and get a different result is human nature.  Further more you must change all human nature, the same way, at the same time.
Nope, the only X I need to change is the acceptability of monopoly in the provision of security. That's a simple education issue.

  I would love to see this happen.
Really pouring on the sociopath today, aren't we?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Yet you still can't explain the existence of government.
Oh, I did that a while back.

Imagine you're a neolithic tribesman...
...
And you call it the State.

That doesn't sound very realistic, especially not if it was Baldrick's cunning plan to offer protection services despite not being very big and strong, or smart. And besides, you were unable to envision Alice and Alicia and Co. colluding to form an empire. Why not?
Oh, I wouldn't say that. They certainly could collude to form an empire. But it would be unstable for all sorts of game theory reasons.

Has something fundamentally changed about human nature since ancient times when, e.g.: the Balkans were rebuilding in the post-Yugoslavia era?
Nope. But nothing changed about the laws of physics when the internal combustion engine was invented. We just came up with a better way of using them.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
...

If you can't model people's behaviour with reasonable accuracy, then why do you keep trying to promote changes when your assumptions are flawed? You need to fix your theory first. Then you'd be able to say: "look, my model is consistent with reality, but I found that if we change X, all these cool improvements occur."

Interestingly enough, that's exactly what I'm saying.

The problem is,  your model is not consistent with reality.

AnCap has not been shown to be a "steady state" society.  Whether you look at the Balkans post Soviet Russia or the beginnings of the Roman Republic, each opportunity to reach a AnCap steady state has instead become an opportunity for statesmen/psychopaths/emperors to establish a government.

The only "x" that you can reasonably claim to change and get a different result is human nature.  Further more you must change all human nature, the same way, at the same time.  I would love to see this happen.

Perhaps that is what the "hands of blue" were trying to do on Miranda.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Until Gary's printing press mysteriously catches fire.  Then Greg, who is happy to print the press releases from Alice,  makes a killing.

Force always wins.  If you depend on the good will of all actors for a successful outcome, you will fail.

Is this why, when I go to Burger King, one attendant clubs me over the head, another reaches into my pocket and pulls out an extra dollar, and I get a large fry I didn't ask for?

You don't do this because if you rob the king, he sends his police force after you.

Now if the police force is fragmented and the fragments are available to the highest bidder, robbery becomes more viable as a way of life.  For a real world example look at Somalia.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Until Gary's printing press mysteriously catches fire.  Then Greg, who is happy to print the press releases from Alice,  makes a killing.

Force always wins.  If you depend on the good will of all actors for a successful outcome, you will fail.

Is this why, when I go to Burger King, one attendant clubs me over the head, another reaches into my pocket and pulls out an extra dollar, and I get a large fry I didn't ask for?

It's also why the McDonald's across the street keeps having mysterious fires and break-ins.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Hunt her down... and hire her?
Now, ask yourself.... Which would be more profitable, getting a small cut of the restitution and providing an incentive for competition to arise and take their business away, or "defect," in the terminology of the prisoner's dilemma, and expose her and Alicia, thereby gaining Alicia's customers?
The high complexity of real-world structures makes it difficult and risky for people to defect. That is why most people work for someone as part of a team of some kind. The possibility of defecting and becoming new competition is an ever-present issue for employers, yet they somehow manage. The reward for being someone's employee may be lower than the potential gains of working independently, but it's also easier and certain risks are lower. If the "prisoner's dilemma" thought experiment was an accurate model, structured workplaces (and collusion) wouldn't exist.
So you're saying that entrepreneurs in the security business would not seek a greater profit by exposing Alicia, instead going for the higher risk, lower pay option of colluding with her, and then, once all the security companies had made that decision, none - and no new competitors - would expose the others so as to gain all their customers?

Now who's depending on good will, rather than greed?
Alicia's the entrepreneur and she started the whole mobster business using Alice. What makes you think going against her would be a lower risk? And that's assuming they've figured out who the "kingpin" among them is.

You forgot fear.
Alfred, Allen, Amanda, and Anna are also entrepreneurs. They run security firms, remember?

Going against her would be lower risk because it a) is performing the job their customers are paying them to do, and b) does not involve the risk of another agency exposing them, and thereby gaining their customers. And considering that finding out who is employing Alice to commit crimes is part of their job description, I'd say Alice's discovery is a fair assumption.

Fear of what?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Hunt her down... and hire her?
Now, ask yourself.... Which would be more profitable, getting a small cut of the restitution and providing an incentive for competition to arise and take their business away, or "defect," in the terminology of the prisoner's dilemma, and expose her and Alicia, thereby gaining Alicia's customers?
The high complexity of real-world structures makes it difficult and risky for people to defect. That is why most people work for someone as part of a team of some kind. The possibility of defecting and becoming new competition is an ever-present issue for employers, yet they somehow manage. The reward for being someone's employee may be lower than the potential gains of working independently, but it's also easier and certain risks are lower. If the "prisoner's dilemma" thought experiment was an accurate model, structured workplaces (and collusion) wouldn't exist.
So you're saying that entrepreneurs in the security business would not seek a greater profit by exposing Alicia, instead going for the higher risk, lower pay option of colluding with her, and then, once all the security companies had made that decision, none - and no new competitors - would expose the others so as to gain all their customers?

Now who's depending on good will, rather than greed?
full member
Activity: 199
Merit: 100
Until Gary's printing press mysteriously catches fire.  Then Greg, who is happy to print the press releases from Alice,  makes a killing.

Force always wins.  If you depend on the good will of all actors for a successful outcome, you will fail.

Is this why, when I go to Burger King, one attendant clubs me over the head, another reaches into my pocket and pulls out an extra dollar, and I get a large fry I didn't ask for?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Hunt her down... and hire her?
Now, ask yourself.... Which would be more profitable, getting a small cut of the restitution and providing an incentive for competition to arise and take their business away, or "defect," in the terminology of the prisoner's dilemma, and expose her and Alicia, thereby gaining Alicia's customers?
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
Force always wins.  If you depend on the good will of all actors for a successful outcome, you will fail.
Exactly what I expect a violent sociopath to say.

I depend on self-interest, not good will.

And it is not in the best interest of anyone to employ a violent criminal to protect your life and property.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Until Gary's printing press mysteriously catches fire.  Then Greg, who is happy to print the press releases from Alice,  makes a killing.

Force always wins.  If you depend on the good will of all actors for a successful outcome, you will fail.

Btw,  recent spelling errors are due to typing on my phone.  I don't always have the convenience of a laptop,  landline or even land.

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
In voluntary trade, both people are better off as a result of the trade, or it wouldn't occur. Positive sum game.
But sometimes bad people are more better off being coercive. Otherwise that wouldn't occur either. Failing to take into account bad people or the consequences makes your ideas flawed.
And that's where the providers of security come in. Because they have +1/+1 arrangements with a lot of people, even Alice's +5 is puny in comparison. Bob asks them to come fix the situation, and they take that +5, and give it back to Bob, so that the use of force does not benefit Alice.
Oops, I forgot to mention that Alice is the security provider. Too bad, so sad.
Well, in that case, all those other +1/+1 relationships dry up, as they wisely decide that Bob may not be the only one Alice tries this on, and another security provider is chosen (by Bob, of course) to extract the restitution from Alice.

As I said, market competition is the best way to hold governments accountable to the people.
You're still not thinking it through to the end.
Let's do another step: This new security provider (let's call her 'Alicia') obviously takes a cut from the restitution for herself. She's pretty smart and realises that if it weren't for Alice, she'd be out of a job. Alice is pretty bad-ass so she doesn't take much convincing to do more coercion.
Alicia gets +1 for each bit of restitution.
Alice gets +0.5 for each successful crime.
(And since it's just security, why point fingers?)
They trade voluntarily.... Everyone wins...
Tsk... And you're forgetting that Alice and Alicia are not alone in the marketplace. There's also Alfred, Allen, Amanda, and Anna. If Alice only preys upon Alicia's customers, then it soon becomes clear that she is only preying upon Alicia's customers and everyone switches to one of the others to avoid Alice's predation. If she is not so discerning, then the other four have no agreement with her, and hunt her down. Probably revealing her arrangement with Alicia in the process. So now we have two criminals, and the guy who really rakes it in is Gary, the investigative reporter, who made it onto national TV with the news of this story.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
In voluntary trade, both people are better off as a result of the trade, or it wouldn't occur. Positive sum game.
But sometimes bad people are more better off being coercive. Otherwise that wouldn't occur either. Failing to take into account bad people or the consequences makes your ideas flawed.
And that's where the providers of security come in. Because they have +1/+1 arrangements with a lot of people, even Alice's +5 is puny in comparison. Bob asks them to come fix the situation, and they take that +5, and give it back to Bob, so that the use of force does not benefit Alice.
Oops, I forgot to mention that Alice is the security provider. Too bad, so sad.
Well, in that case, all those other +1/+1 relationships dry up, as they wisely decide that Bob may not be the only one Alice tries this on, and another security provider is chosen (by Bob, of course) to extract the restitution from Alice.

As I said, market competition is the best way to hold governments accountable to the people.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM
In voluntary trade, both people are better off as a result of the trade, or it wouldn't occur. Positive sum game.
But sometimes bad people are more better off being coercive. Otherwise that wouldn't occur either. Failing to take into account bad people or the consequences makes your ideas flawed.
And that's where the providers of security come in. Because they have +1/+1 arrangements with a lot of people, even Alice's +5 is puny in comparison. Bob asks them to come fix the situation, and they take that +5, and give it back to Bob, so that the use of force does not benefit Alice.

That instead of holding governments more accountable, we should give up and dream of a world without them?
What better means is there to hold an agency accountable than through market competition?
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
Now they are thinking what to do with me
There will always be people preaching that THEIR violence is OK  Roll Eyes

How THEIR violence is perfectly 'legit', until the moment the violence is turned on them. Then 'suddenly' they're like, "omgosh, I don't want this violence!"

Typical greedy violent people behaviour, I've met plenty of those, and plenty of those are locked up, for good reason.
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