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Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 52. (Read 32053 times)

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 16, 2020, 03:26:23 AM
I was talking more about on-chain, limited block space, if higher tx demand = higher fees. Off-chain, limited capital available, therefore limited payment channels, if higher tx demand = higher fees.

I can't decide if this makes sense or if its just me, could you rephrase it?

There isn't a limited number of channels. When you open a channel you make a literal contract between you and the other nodes. If a node ups it's fees you'd just use a different node... Iff a payment processor or merchant charges too much for fees you'd just turn to a different one imo or complain to them and see if they'll reduce it (if your channel is open with them).

This is obviously different when using a custodial wallet but you don't have to use a custodial wallet and I'd the fees become too high then competition will likely increase...


But payment channels, and their capacity, are actually limited by how much Bitcoin the people who run nodes hold, are limited by how much capital they want to open payment channels with, are limited with their technical-skills in how to maintain the node/balance channels.

That limitation, and increase in demand for LN transactions = higher fees?
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
November 15, 2020, 01:40:46 PM
Also, if I need to shutdown the node (or restart my laptop), channels remain open and everything keeps working, right?
So, does this off time, counts to kinda break the uptime record?

If someone wants to close a channel and you're not online, the channel can still be closed anyway.

When not online:
people can't open a channel with you.
people can't cooperatively close a channel with you (so it might take around 14 days for their channels to close unless some sort of override kicks in when you're back online).

I think if an uptime/reliability record is kept, this will be factored into it.

If you stay offline for more than 14 days, someone can technically steal your funds (but I don't think it's likely you'll be offline for 14 consecutive days and you might have bigger problems if that happens).
Other than that, and if i've ever forgot to reload the app within 14 days - the remote node doesn't try to do anything malicious as they're incentivised not to...

Hum, I think I didn't make my question very clear. I'm sorry for that.

I was not looking to know about what happens if I'm offline and someone tries to open/close channels with me.
My question was rather if these down times count to reset the uptime record. I mean, let's say my node has been online non-stop for 12 days and for some reason, my node goes offline, or because mains power failed or because I needed to reboot the node or an other reason, if that record of 12 days is reset or not. Or if what matters is how long channels have been up and running!
copper member
Activity: 2856
Merit: 3071
https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory
November 15, 2020, 11:17:55 AM
Also, if I need to shutdown the node (or restart my laptop), channels remain open and everything keeps working, right?
So, does this off time, counts to kinda break the uptime record?

If someone wants to close a channel and you're not online, the channel can still be closed anyway.

When not online:
people can't open a channel with you.
people can't cooperatively close a channel with you (so it might take around 14 days for their channels to close unless some sort of override kicks in when you're back online).

I think if an uptime/reliability record is kept, this will be factored into it.

If you stay offline for more than 14 days, someone can technically steal your funds (but I don't think it's likely you'll be offline for 14 consecutive days and you might have bigger problems if that happens).
Other than that, and if i've ever forgot to reload the app within 14 days - the remote node doesn't try to do anything malicious as they're incentivised not to...
hero member
Activity: 1176
Merit: 647
I rather die on my feet than to live on my knees
November 15, 2020, 11:11:17 AM
Hello,

Do we have any command to check for how long my c-lightning node has been up an running?

Also, if I need to shutdown the node (or restart my laptop), channels remain open and everything keeps working, right?
So, does this off time, counts to kinda break the uptime record?

I mean, my c-lightning node has been running for quite some time now, but sometimes, internet connection goes down because laptop goes to sleep when in battery mode. Or when mains power fails and laptop is not on battery, the node goes down because laptop also shuts down. Does these situations counts as node being offline or what really counts is channels not going offline?
copper member
Activity: 2856
Merit: 3071
https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory
November 15, 2020, 08:45:22 AM
edit oops
I'd love to see how LN performs at a billion transactions per day Cheesy

I can't shift $25 via LN except in < $1 transactions.  We're not there yet when it comes to capacity.

If you pm me or bump any thread (yours or mine in the lending section) with a $25 invoice I can try and test it out (though I might have a maintenance margin thing I have to adhere to with my new channels).
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
November 15, 2020, 08:21:41 AM
I can't shift $25 via LN except in < $1 transactions.
I don't have that much in one LN wallet, but I've just tested a $6 (37,500 sat) transaction from Phoenix Wallet (non custodial) to BlueWallet (custodial). This worked without problems, and arrived in seconds. I paid 4 sats in fees.

This seems to be a good moment to reopen my Liberated: LoyceV's Legendary Little Lightning Loans for some more testing Smiley
legendary
Activity: 3626
Merit: 2209
💲🏎️💨🚓
November 15, 2020, 08:05:02 AM
I'd love to see how LN performs at a billion transactions per day Cheesy

I can't shift $25 via LN except in < $1 transactions.  We're not there yet when it comes to capacity.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
November 15, 2020, 05:22:05 AM
I was talking more about on-chain, limited block space, if higher tx demand = higher fees. Off-chain, limited capital available, therefore limited payment channels, if higher tx demand = higher fees.
I can't decide if this makes sense or if its just me, could you rephrase it?
I don't think it makes sense Tongue Nodes will always be limited in funds, but they can send the funds they have back and forth many times. Nodes may require balancing at some point, if all their funds are "on one side" of their channels, but that can be done by adjusting fees: if there's a lot of funds on one side, routing could even be free as it helps the node. If there's not much funds left, fees can be high to encourage routes to pass through a node that has a better balance.

More demand will lead to more nodes, which gives more possible routes:
Image loading...

Maybe it's better to compare LN with for instance mobile phone prices, and not with for instance oil prices. With oil, a higher demand leads to a higher price. With phones, producing a billion of them makes them a lot cheaper than producing only 1000.
I'd love to see how LN performs at a billion transactions per day Cheesy
copper member
Activity: 2856
Merit: 3071
https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory
November 15, 2020, 04:18:35 AM
I was talking more about on-chain, limited block space, if higher tx demand = higher fees. Off-chain, limited capital available, therefore limited payment channels, if higher tx demand = higher fees.

I can't decide if this makes sense or if its just me, could you rephrase it?

There isn't a limited number of channels. When you open a channel you make a literal contract between you and the other nodes. If a node ups it's fees you'd just use a different node... Iff a payment processor or merchant charges too much for fees you'd just turn to a different one imo or complain to them and see if they'll reduce it (if your channel is open with them).

This is obviously different when using a custodial wallet but you don't have to use a custodial wallet and I'd the fees become too high then competition will likely increase...
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 15, 2020, 04:09:41 AM
Unlike on-chain transactions, off-chain transactions aren't limited in capacity, so market mechanisms should lead to an equilibrium between cost and profit. If fees go up a lot, new parties can join the LN-routing-market and fees will go down again until there's a new equilibrium.
Isn't that the same as mining, hashing power, and demand? Because offchain channels are also as limited as the amount of capital, the Bitcoins held, the users have.

No amount of hashing power, capital or earnings per block can increase the number of transactions Bitcoin can process (I'm ignoring small fluctuations until the next difficulty adjustment).

With LN, anyone with some coins can set up a node, which increases the number of available routes. The new node will need to connect to some nodes (or users). I've seen several offers from node-owners that pay to open a channel with them.


I was talking more about on-chain, limited block space, if higher tx demand = higher fees. Off-chain, limited capital available, therefore limited payment channels, if higher tx demand = higher fees.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
November 14, 2020, 06:50:06 AM
Unlike on-chain transactions, off-chain transactions aren't limited in capacity, so market mechanisms should lead to an equilibrium between cost and profit. If fees go up a lot, new parties can join the LN-routing-market and fees will go down again until there's a new equilibrium.
Isn't that the same as mining, hashing power, and demand? Because offchain channels are also as limited as the amount of capital, the Bitcoins held, the users have.
No amount of hashing power, capital or earnings per block can increase the number of transactions Bitcoin can process (I'm ignoring small fluctuations until the next difficulty adjustment).
With LN, anyone with some coins can set up a node, which increases the number of available routes. The new node will need to connect to some nodes (or users). I've seen several offers from node-owners that pay to open a channel with them.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 14, 2020, 05:36:40 AM
Then if adopted, will the Lightning Network's fees not be "unfairly cheap" forever?

Unlike on-chain transactions, off-chain transactions aren't limited in capacity, so market mechanisms should lead to an equilibrium between cost and profit. If fees go up a lot, new parties can join the LN-routing-market and fees will go down again until there's a new equilibrium.


Isn't that the same as mining, hashing power, and demand? Because offchain channels are also as limited as the amount of capital, the Bitcoins held, the users have.

Quote

Quote
Is there some truth to what some people said that LN fees might be more than some altcoins' fees, because of limited capital, opportunity cost, and demand?
Yes Smiley An XLM transaction for instance costs 0.00001 XLM, which is about $0.0000008 or 5 msat (0.00000000005 BTC). There's no chance and no need for Bitcoin to compete with this, because it's Bitcoin, and not some altcoin.


The "centralized shitcoin, with the broken incentives" comparison, but I understand your point. Cool
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
November 13, 2020, 11:30:33 AM
Then if adopted, will the Lightning Network's fees not be "unfairly cheap" forever?
Unlike on-chain transactions, off-chain transactions aren't limited in capacity, so market mechanisms should lead to an equilibrium between cost and profit. If fees go up a lot, new parties can join the LN-routing-market and fees will go down again until there's a new equilibrium.

Quote
Is there some truth to what some people said that LN fees might be more than some altcoins' fees, because of limited capital, opportunity cost, and demand?
Yes Smiley An XLM transaction for instance costs 0.00001 XLM, which is about $0.0000008 or 5 msat (0.00000000005 BTC). There's no chance and no need for Bitcoin to compete with this, because it's Bitcoin, and not some altcoin.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 13, 2020, 10:58:15 AM
Why aren't exchanges starting to run/operate their own Lightning nodes? The incentive is there.
I don't think they care about earning 0.2 BTC in several months, or 0.25% on withdrawing small transactions (they earn much more from the common 0.5 mBTC withdrawal fee).

And beyond that there will be time & infrastructure costs.
Unlike most of us, since they will be a bit more concerned with security (I hope...) their node is not going to be run on an RPi that was sitting around or a VM on a random desktop machine that has enough power to do it.
Going to need hardware, someone who knows what they are doing, redundancy, etc.

Going to be tough to justify the cost vs. profit.

-Dave


Then if adopted, will the Lightning Network's fees not be "unfairly cheap" forever? Is there some truth to what some people said that LN fees might be more than some altcoins' fees, because of limited capital, opportunity cost, and demand?
legendary
Activity: 3458
Merit: 6231
Crypto Swap Exchange
November 13, 2020, 10:37:55 AM
Why aren't exchanges starting to run/operate their own Lightning nodes? The incentive is there.
I don't think they care about earning 0.2 BTC in several months, or 0.25% on withdrawing small transactions (they earn much more from the common 0.5 mBTC withdrawal fee).

And beyond that there will be time & infrastructure costs.
Unlike most of us, since they will be a bit more concerned with security (I hope...) their node is not going to be run on an RPi that was sitting around or a VM on a random desktop machine that has enough power to do it.
Going to need hardware, someone who knows what they are doing, redundancy, etc.

Going to be tough to justify the cost vs. profit.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
November 13, 2020, 07:57:54 AM
Why aren't exchanges starting to run/operate their own Lightning nodes? The incentive is there.
I don't think they care about earning 0.2 BTC in several months, or 0.25% on withdrawing small transactions (they earn much more from the common 0.5 mBTC withdrawal fee).
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 13, 2020, 07:21:16 AM
Then how did Alex Bosworth reach $2,500 in routing fee earnings?

That much should be obvious, he's CEO of https://yalls.org/, which sometimes used to try LN first time. Even myself have tried it previously, even though i use testnet edition few years ago.

Simply have lots of capital isn't enough, there should be reason why i should connect to your channel. People is more likely to create new channel when they pay for service or goods.


So simply, he's earning by leveraging his company, yalls.org, to have as much connections as it can? Why aren't exchanges starting to run/operate their own Lightning nodes? The incentive is there.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 13, 2020, 02:05:49 AM
LN is a bit like a spoke-hub: instead of making a connection from anywhere to anywhere, everyone makes only a few connections.
That's just plain wrong. The Lightning Network is completely distributed at its core.
But..... How far is the current Lightning Network from being completely distributed? I get that it's theoretically possible, just like it's possible to send a letter from A to B without using a centralized distribution center, but I'd expect a few large nodes to handle the majority of transactions because it's much more efficient that way.


Plus only a few large nodes can handle the costs, and handle the opportunity costs by earning them back in fees.

https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1318778737228349440
Quote
Today my nodes reached 0.21 BTC (currently $2,500) in routing fee earnings, on 83 (currently $1,000,000) of forwarded BTC.
That's 0.25% fee on average, not bad for small transactions (paying 5 sat to send 2000 sat), but if you're sending a few mBTC, on-chain fees can be lower already.

From what I've seen so far, this is much more likely:
Quote
Realistically I have earned 326 Satoshi over the last two years


Then how did Alex Bosworth reach $2,500 in routing fee earnings?

I believe it was darosior who also said that he earns enough to pay for his monthly costs for running his node. What is the secret? Cool
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
November 12, 2020, 01:51:34 PM
LN is a bit like a spoke-hub: instead of making a connection from anywhere to anywhere, everyone makes only a few connections.
That's just plain wrong. The Lightning Network is completely distributed at its core.
But..... How far is the current Lightning Network from being completely distributed? I get that it's theoretically possible, just like it's possible to send a letter from A to B without using a centralized distribution center, but I'd expect a few large nodes to handle the majority of transactions because it's much more efficient that way.

https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1318778737228349440
Quote
Today my nodes reached 0.21 BTC (currently $2,500) in routing fee earnings, on 83 (currently $1,000,000) of forwarded BTC.
That's 0.25% fee on average, not bad for small transactions (paying 5 sat to send 2000 sat), but if you're sending a few mBTC, on-chain fees can be lower already.

From what I've seen so far, this is much more likely:
Quote
Realistically I have earned 326 Satoshi over the last two years
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
November 12, 2020, 12:12:42 PM
OK Lightning hobbyists/experts, teach us plebs the art of running a Lightning node, FOR PROFIT. Don't keep it to yourselves! Cool

Make a simple guide for newbies?



https://twitter.com/alexbosworth/status/1318778737228349440

Quote

Today my nodes reached 0.21 BTC (currently $2,500) in routing fee earnings, on 83 (currently $1,000,000) of forwarded BTC.

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