The Lightning Network FAQ - page 49.

Rath_

legendary

Activity: 1876

Merit: 3139

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on January 18, 2021, 02:44:49 AM

I'm trying to understand it, but I don't get it. Even if transaction(s) are signed in a multi-signature address, they still have to be broadcasted on-chain, so a very high fee must be paid. By who?

By the funder of the channel.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on January 18, 2021, 02:44:49 AM

Second question, what if I pay with lightning network and before they are added to the blockchain, I spend them? Won't this make the signed transaction useless?

If the channel opening transaction is not confirmed, you can't use such a channel. Every time a channel is updated (either one spends/receives some coins or routes a payment), both parties sign a new commitment transaction which reflects the updated balance of the channel.

STT

legendary

Activity: 4172

Merit: 1462

Quote

Don't forget most withdraws on exchanges also are a profit center.

Definitely is that way, they allow deposits no problem but when people demand it back and just want any hassle over with thats when the fees come in and people are far more likely to take it without it hindering future usage of the exchange like deposit fees might discourage some. The biggest use I've found for ETC the old branch of ETH was being common but also very cheap between exchanges, many of the other alts fail to do that or have spread margins too big to be worth it or just not common elsewhere to transfer.
Meanwhile using a wallet is not a problem, it clears with really not much needed so the fee problem is a useful construct for many sites to gain minimum revenue from every user. Eventually zero hassle has to be a thing for mainstream takeup.

BlackHatCoiner

legendary

Activity: 1512

Merit: 7340

Farewell, Leo

I'm trying to understand it, but I don't get it. Even if transaction(s) are signed in a multi-signature address, they still have to be broadcasted on-chain, so a very high fee must be paid. By who?

Second question, what if I pay with lightning network and before they are added to the blockchain, I spend them? Won't this make the signed transaction useless?

Sorry for the noob questions, I didn't need lightning network since I don't transact bitcoins very often, but right now I'll need it for micro-payments.

DaveF

legendary

Activity: 3500

Merit: 6320

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: LoyceV on January 13, 2021, 03:34:45 AM

I love the wild theories about this, but couldn't it just be someone who set up (or is testing) some micro payment system?

That was my 1st thought, BUT I would think that.

1) It went on for longer then I have the screen shot for so that just seems excessive. That's a lot of testing.
2) They would be using their own nodes.
3) That is what testnet is for (yeah I know it's such a small amount who cares)

So I dismissed it. Looing back through some logs it did happen once before so I'll just put it in the "meh, whatever" pile and move on.

-Dave

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

I love the wild theories about this, but couldn't it just be someone who set up (or is testing) some micro payment system?

Timelord2067

legendary

Activity: 3696

Merit: 2219

💲🏎️💨🚓

It wouldn't be something like the One Satoshi quasi spam that occurred during the Sochi Winter Olympics a few years ago? IIRC it was either a tracking attack (actual terminology name escapes me just now) or it really was just a cleaver marketing ploy...

Either way I seem to recall hearing that "feature" has now been disabled.

PrimeNumber7

copper member

Activity: 1666

Merit: 1901

Amazon Prime Member #7

Quote from: DaveF on January 12, 2021, 06:58:30 PM

So was looking at my node just now and saw this:

Just dozens of 2sat (3 with fee) transactions.
Any idea why someone would be doing it? Just seems real odd.
Never saw it before, so I don't know if its something odd or I just never noticed.

-Dave

Quote from: DaveF on January 12, 2021, 07:30:06 PM

Don't get me wrong I'll take the 1 sat per transaction all day long, but it makes you wonder what else is going on out there that nobody sees.

-Dave

I would guess it is someone trying to calculate the size of open channels. If you know the size of open channels at enough intervals, you can potentially track individual LN transactions that are supposed to be private. Or it could be someone trying to reduce privacy in some other way.

It could also be someone trying to send a larger amount of coin to someone via many transactions than would be possible via a single transaction.

DaveF

legendary

Activity: 3500

Merit: 6320

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: jackg on January 12, 2021, 07:06:34 PM

Just putting it out therre: could that be used to check if your node is online by sending a transaction every 30 mins worth 2 sats and getting a notification from it? That's my best guess atm...

Why would anyone care and it's not a regular interval:

Code:

12/JAN/2021 13:35
12/JAN/2021 13:04
12/JAN/2021 13:00
12/JAN/2021 13:00
12/JAN/2021 12:58
12/JAN/2021 12:57
12/JAN/2021 12:55
12/JAN/2021 12:53
12/JAN/2021 12:49
12/JAN/2021 12:46
12/JAN/2021 12:42
12/JAN/2021 12:41
12/JAN/2021 12:40
12/JAN/2021 12:40
12/JAN/2021 12:39
12/JAN/2021 12:38
12/JAN/2021 12:34
12/JAN/2021 12:34
12/JAN/2021 12:33
12/JAN/2021 12:29
12/JAN/2021 12:27
12/JAN/2021 12:26
12/JAN/2021 12:26
12/JAN/2021 12:21
12/JAN/2021 12:17
12/JAN/2021 12:16
12/JAN/2021 12:13
12/JAN/2021 12:10
12/JAN/2021 12:09
12/JAN/2021 12:02
12/JAN/2021 12:02
12/JAN/2021 11:51
12/JAN/2021 11:49
12/JAN/2021 11:47
12/JAN/2021 11:46
12/JAN/2021 11:45
12/JAN/2021 11:45
12/JAN/2021 11:44
12/JAN/2021 11:42
12/JAN/2021 10:49
12/JAN/2021 05:37
12/JAN/2021 05:20
12/JAN/2021 05:19

And unless it was someone at WalletOfSatoshi.com I don't think there would be anyway to force it to use my node. According to 1ML WalletOfSatoshi.com [6] has 128 channels open.
Don't get me wrong I'll take the 1 sat per transaction all day long, but it makes you wonder what else is going on out there that nobody sees.

-Dave

jackg

copper member

Activity: 2856

Merit: 3071

https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

Just putting it out therre: could that be used to check if your node is online by sending a transaction every 30 mins worth 2 sats and getting a notification from it? That's my best guess atm...

DaveF

legendary

Activity: 3500

Merit: 6320

Crypto Swap Exchange

So was looking at my node just now and saw this:

Just dozens of 2sat (3 with fee) transactions.
Any idea why someone would be doing it? Just seems real odd.
Never saw it before, so I don't know if its something odd or I just never noticed.

-Dave

jackg

copper member

Activity: 2856

Merit: 3071

https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

Quote from: LoyceV on January 04, 2021, 11:23:43 AM

Quote from: bitmover on January 04, 2021, 11:07:42 AM

But I don't know if I can find those transactions. I will take a look into it when your data is ready

I wasn't planning on doing anything with "inputs", unless there is a specific request. I'm basically just mirroring Blockchair.
I can do data extractions, but I'll need to know what you need. And it will take a while because there's a lot of data.

I think most datasets already available should have all the info necessary AFAIK. You can either check the script type or the public keys used for signing it from what I can remember.

Full human readable data would be HUGE.

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: bitmover on January 04, 2021, 11:07:42 AM

But I don't know if I can find those transactions. I will take a look into it when your data is ready

I wasn't planning on doing anything with "inputs", unless there is a specific request. I'm basically just mirroring Blockchair.
I can do data extractions, but I'll need to know what you need. And it will take a while because there's a lot of data.

bitmover

legendary

Activity: 2352

Merit: 6089

bitcoindata.science

Quote from: LoyceV on January 04, 2021, 04:13:07 AM

Quote from: jackg on January 03, 2021, 08:44:32 PM

For a channel that had been closed you're looking for a multisig 2 of 2 script

If ~~you~~ bitmover can find them in for instance blockchair_bitcoin_inputs_20210103.tsv.gz (45 minutes download): I should have all ~350 GB data available somewhere next month.

Yes, my idea was really to look for them into your data, as it is organized in CSV and I am already used to it.

But I don't know if I can find those transactions. I will take a look into it when your data is ready

LoyceV

legendary

Activity: 3290

Merit: 16489

Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: jackg on January 03, 2021, 08:44:32 PM

For a channel that had been closed you're looking for a multisig 2 of 2 script

If ~~you~~ bitmover can find them in for instance blockchair_bitcoin_inputs_20210103.tsv.gz (45 minutes download): I should have all ~350 GB data available somewhere next month.

jackg

copper member

Activity: 2856

Merit: 3071

https://bit.ly/387FXHi lightning theory

Quote from: bitmover on January 03, 2021, 08:30:58 PM

I have a question.

Looking at a transaction in the blockchain. How can I know if that transaction created or closed a Lightning Network channel?

I would like to try to find those transactions and make some stats with them.

Realistically you're probably only going to be able to work out its a lightning channel on the blockchain once it's been closed. It may be possible to send htlcs incomplete down channels that are active to see the available balance they might have for transferring - but then you'd lock their funds in a htlc potentially and it'll depend on the node as to how long that is.

For a channel that had been closed you're looking for a multisig 2 of 2 script to be highlighted in whatever you're using for the analysis (eg the bitcoin core daemon). And for the multisig address to only have 2 transactions - channel opening and channel closure.

bitmover

legendary

Activity: 2352

Merit: 6089

bitcoindata.science

I have a question.

Looking at a transaction in the blockchain. How can I know if that transaction created or closed a Lightning Network channel?

I would like to try to find those transactions and make some stats with them.

DaveF

legendary

Activity: 3500

Merit: 6320

Crypto Swap Exchange

Quote from: AdolfinWolf on December 25, 2020, 04:42:31 PM

Quote from: DaveF on December 25, 2020, 10:01:25 AM

I know I asked something similar before and never got an answer, is there any software out there that monitors your Lightning Node and lets you know if it's unreachable?

I now have the server itself monitored along with the bitcoind / lnd / etc. But I would like to know if there is a way to know that for some reason it can't be seen by the outside world. Happened the other day, server was up and running fine along with all the services, BUT for some reason it could not see the outside world, or at least the outside world could not see it. A quick reboot fixed it, but a little warning would have been nice. Honestly if I had not tried to send a payment I never would have know that nothing could route to it.

-Dave

Can't you just ping or telnet from a different machine?

Code:

telnet

Should connect.

so BFX's node would be something like

Code:

telnet 34.65.85.39 9745

which seems to work.

if you want to see if your lighnting functionality actually works, you'll probably need to set up a second node and try a HTLC every n minutes...?

That's what I figured. I have the processes monitored, and an external ping running, but was looking for an automated thing that someone already wrote to do the actual connection to LND to see if it actually responds as opposed to just sitting there running but not working.

Guess I'll hack something together and set it to run every 5 minutes. Surprised nobody has written anything to do it yet.

-Dave

AdolfinWolf

legendary

Activity: 1946

Merit: 1427

Quote from: DaveF on December 25, 2020, 10:01:25 AM

I know I asked something similar before and never got an answer, is there any software out there that monitors your Lightning Node and lets you know if it's unreachable?

I now have the server itself monitored along with the bitcoind / lnd / etc. But I would like to know if there is a way to know that for some reason it can't be seen by the outside world. Happened the other day, server was up and running fine along with all the services, BUT for some reason it could not see the outside world, or at least the outside world could not see it. A quick reboot fixed it, but a little warning would have been nice. Honestly if I had not tried to send a payment I never would have know that nothing could route to it.

-Dave

Can't you just ping or telnet from a different machine?

Code:

telnet

Should connect.

so BFX's node would be

Code:

telnet 34.65.85.39 9745

which seems to work.

if you want to see if your lighnting functionality actually works, you'll probably need to set up a second node and try a HTLC every so many minutes...?

DaveF

legendary

Activity: 3500

Merit: 6320

Crypto Swap Exchange

I know I asked something similar before and never got an answer, is there any software out there that monitors your Lightning Node and lets you know if it's unreachable?

I now have the server itself monitored along with the bitcoind / lnd / etc. But I would like to know if there is a way to know that for some reason it can't be seen by the outside world. Happened the other day, server was up and running fine along with all the services, BUT for some reason it could not see the outside world, or at least the outside world could not see it. A quick reboot fixed it, but a little warning would have been nice. Honestly if I had not tried to send a payment I never would have know that nothing could route to it.

-Dave

DooMAD

legendary

Activity: 3948

Merit: 3191

Leave no FUD unchallenged

Quote from: hv_ on December 24, 2020, 04:35:47 AM

.. they 'can'. Whatever they to, 100% SEC / CFTC et al will shut it down, even after 7 + years. No way doing such (bigger) without engagment with regs

Tech doesnt solve that - get real

Oh, that's right, you believe that only the fervent followers of your worthless clonecoin understand what regulations are. Roll Eyes

News flash, zealot, Liquid has been developed with regulatory conformity in mind:

Quote from: https://blockstream.com/2019/05/15/en-new-liquid-securities-platform/

businesses can quickly issue Liquid-based security tokens with the click of a button, and establish sophisticated rulesets to conform with their regulatory requirements with no software engineering experience required.

Quote from: https://blockstream.com/2019/05/15/en-new-liquid-securities-platform/

token rules do not have to be written at the smart contract level–as is the case with other blockchain platforms–and can be easily adjusted via the Liquid Securities control panel to allow issuers to adapt to fast-evolving digital asset regulations.

Looks like tech does, in fact, solve that.

Now kindly go away with your regurgitated faketoshi propaganda.

Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 49. (Read 33677 times)