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Topic: The Lightning Network FAQ - page 48. (Read 33677 times)

legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
March 15, 2021, 07:13:30 AM
im guessing this tactic means DaveF has to close his channels and reaggregate his funds into new channels quite often if they are pushing payments via him so often. (well more often than he likes as he seems to be complaining that he is being used as a middleman)

maybe he should up his fees.. to take advantage of his predicament.. or sway them away from using him as a middleman

Not complaining just trying to understand why people are doing some things and if what I am doing to facilitate them doing it is the proper way.

-Dave

It's probably not worth the effort providing justification for your choices to the resident LN Troll-in-Chief there.  They won't accept it anyway, it contradicts the voices in their head who tell them what to do.  He's a headcase. 
There are some who just despise the fact that people are free to use LN if they choose to, so they feel the need to seize every opportunity to attack it.  Nothing will placate them.  

It certainly looks as though you're doing things properly.  You simply happened to be the most economical route available on this occasion.  It's possible, if they've been sending lots of payments recently, that some of the other channels they've used previously are now unbalanced and don't have sufficient capacity to route anything else at the moment.
 
Keep doing what you're doing.  Your very existence proves franky1's false narratives wrong.  You don't have to be one of the "big players" to contribute.  Individuals are just as important to the overall utility and usability of the network.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
March 15, 2021, 06:51:29 AM
maybe he should up his fees.. to take advantage of his predicament.. or sway them away from using him as a middleman
It didn't strike me as if DaveF has a problem with this, he's just curious why it happens. I'd say this is exactly how LN is supposed to work, so let them! They pay a 1 sat fee for each transaction, I don't see a problem there Smiley

if what I am doing to facilitate them doing it is the proper way.
Seems okay to me. If they didn't appreciate your service, they wouldn't use it.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
March 15, 2021, 06:31:27 AM
and there was the LN naive community thinking that middlemen were not suppose to know the sender/receiver of long routes. or of any route (promotion:private untracable untrackable network)
strange because he seems to be able to see and log all payments not meant for him personally(he not intended final destination)
That's how it works I know this provider paid that provider.
I have no idea if coingate was the 1st hop or the 7th hop
I have no idea if WoS is the final destination or it goes past that.
I also know nothing about the payment other than the amount.

im guessing DaveF has a direct channel with coingate and a direct channel with walletsofsatoshi. and thus he is their direct route to each other.
im guessing DaveF didnt turn off his autopilot or didnt turn off his 'routing' to not allow them to abuse him

Yes to the 1st
No autopilot I setup all my channels myself and routing payments is no big deal, just odd that 2 of the larger providers would need me.

im guessing this tactic means DaveF has to close his channels and reaggregate his funds into new channels quite often if they are pushing payments via him so often. (well more often than he likes as he seems to be complaining that he is being used as a middleman)

maybe he should up his fees.. to take advantage of his predicament.. or sway them away from using him as a middleman

Not complaining just trying to understand why people are doing some things and if what I am doing to facilitate them doing it is the proper way.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
March 14, 2021, 09:26:02 PM
OK, this is just really odd now.
Back in January I posted about a bunch of small repeated transactions being routed though my node from walletofsatoshi.com to opennode.com
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.56082955
Just a bit of oddness.
Earlier this month I had a bunch going from coingate to walletofsatoshi.com


Now all 3 of these node are major players in the lightning world. All are in the top 20 nodes in terms of capacity.
They are all also fairly well connected.

Why would they be routing through me #3700+ in terms of capacity and worse then that for just about every other lightning ranking too?

Just really odd. From Bob's home node to Alice's home node fine. But big players? Weird.

-Dave

legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
February 22, 2021, 07:14:05 AM
I keep getting a "bandwidth exhausted" notice every time I try to open a channel via Zap to this node:

Code:
0331f80652fb840239df8dc99205792bba2e559a05469915804c08420230e23c7c@34.200.181.109:9735

It's a fresh install of the latest Zap (and my bandwidth is OK) so there shouldn't be any issues.



(I'm trying to open a channel for BTC 0.0026 plus tx fees)

What LN node do you have Zap connected to?
The only time I have seen that error it was a node.js issue and had nothing to do with the actual problem.
Something else was causing an issue and node went into a loop, sorry I can't help more but you might want to take a look at your LN install more then the wallet.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 3696
Merit: 2219
💲🏎️💨🚓
February 21, 2021, 10:28:49 PM
I keep getting a "bandwidth exhausted" notice every time I try to open a channel via Zap to this node:

Code:
0331f80652fb840239df8dc99205792bba2e559a05469915804c08420230e23c7c@34.200.181.109:9735

It's a fresh install of the latest Zap (and my bandwidth is OK) so there shouldn't be any issues.



(I'm trying to open a channel for BTC 0.0026 plus tx fees)
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org
February 16, 2021, 08:16:24 AM
The lightning network whitepaper (the one you can download from lightning.network) says this, in chapter 5 page 41:

Quote
...
For instance, Alice pre-generates one million keys, each key being a child of the previous key. Alice allocates which keys to use according to some deterministic manner. For example, she starts with the child deepest in the tree to generate many sub-keys for day 1. This key is used as a master key for all keys generated on day 1. She gives Bob the address she wishes to use for the next transaction, and discloses the private key to Bob when it becomes invalidated. When Alice discloses to Bob all private keys derived from the day 1 master key and does not wish to continue using that master key, she can disclose the day 1 master key to Bob. At this point, Bob does not need to store all the keys derived from the day 1 master key. Bob does the same for Alice and gives her his day 1 key.
When all Day 2 private keys have been exchanged, for example by day 5, Alice discloses her Day 2 key...

Is there any particular reason why the keys used are grouped by day with no structure of the derivation path? Instead of several hundred keys that look like m/0, m/1, ... m/1000 and then having to store state about which keys were used in what days, wouldn't it be better to use different paths each time a new RSMC is made?

Giving an example using the whitepaper's terminology, C1a&b, and all HLTCs branching off of them, use path m'/1'/i', C2 uses m'/2'/i', and so on. The hardened derivation is so that keys used in other contracts cannot be guessed if one is leaked, or in this case, intentionally revealed (which is a flaw in using the first kind of paths above).

Do any LN clients actually follow the whitepaper and make contracts using keys grouped per day, or do they use different paths for different contracts as I described?
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3139
February 15, 2021, 04:47:21 PM
With all of that being said, it might not be you but the ACINQ channel itself. I have had several issues with them in the past, and actually stopped connecting to them. Fold, WalletofSatoshi, OpenNode, Coingate. No issues at all. ACINQ was....not fine.

I ended up closing my channel with ACINQ and opening a new one to LightningPowerUsers.com. I can't perform a loop out for that channel as well as for the CoinGate one. I will try opening a channel to one of the Loop's peers. I am also thinking about opening a large channel to Loop so that other people could balance their channels through me.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
February 15, 2021, 01:31:40 AM
If found this website for explaining Channel Capacity in the Lightning Network, https://channelcapacity.io/

Post/share it around the forum, especially when there’s FUD that “Lightning transactions are IOUs”. Lightning is actually the REAL DeFi, once fully understood.

legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
February 14, 2021, 06:21:33 PM
Has anyone here experimented with the Lightning Lab's Loop? It worked fine for a node with only a couple of channels, but it failed for my channel with ACINQ which is significantly better connected to the rest of the network. I recall having some routing problems in the past when my channel to them was the only one I had. I am about to open a few more channels since the transaction fees have decreased significantly. I will report back once I try "loop out" on them tomorrow.

Tried and failed with ACINQ too.
Did not put that much time into it as the one it was on was a somewhat wonky setup and figured it was just me.
Also, I am constantly tinkering with my channels to find what I think would be good, so automating swaps / loops was not high on my list to do.

With all of that being said, it might not be you but the ACINQ channel itself. I have had several issues with them in the past, and actually stopped connecting to them. Fold, WalletofSatoshi, OpenNode, Coingate. No issues at all. ACINQ was....not fine.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3139
February 14, 2021, 03:51:48 PM
Has anyone here experimented with the Lightning Lab's Loop? It worked fine for a node with only a couple of channels, but it failed for my channel with ACINQ which is significantly better connected to the rest of the network. I recall having some routing problems in the past when my channel to them was the only one I had. I am about to open a few more channels since the transaction fees have decreased significantly. I will report back once I try "loop out" on them tomorrow.

legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
January 21, 2021, 11:20:24 AM
Does anyone have a channel open to OpenNode.com and if so, do you see a lot of of outbound routing to them?
Just took a look at my Forwarding history and eliminating the oddball dozens of 2sat transactions almost all the other ones I have are inbound from elsewhere to OpenNode.
Never saw that before and wonder if something changed. Probably not important (how many people really sit there and check their forwarding on a regular basis) but since it's different I figured I would ask.



-Dave
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 20, 2021, 04:56:43 AM
Any exchange could set up such a service, but as long as the customer doesn't create his own channel, it will only be custodial.
I believe that’s a necessary trade-off. Bitcoin users from after 2018 are not all very technical people. I am not a very technical person myself, although I’ve made an effort to understand how the network works. But to handle, and maintain my own Lightning node just to use Lightning long-term? I could learn it, but I will stop running it eventually.
Bitcoin (or anything else for that matter) can't reach a large market share if it requires technical knowledge. That's why I like custodial LN so much: it's so easy! Making a payment with Phoenix Wallet is a lot faster than paying by bank now. I can even choose not to set a password, which isn't possible (nor wise) when paying by bank.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
January 20, 2021, 02:45:09 AM
I didn't need lightning network since I don't transact bitcoins very often, but right now I'll need it for micro-payments.
You could exchange some low-fee altcoin for Bitcoin on the Lightning Network through an instant exchange and have it send to your custodial LN wallet to avoid on-chain Bitcoin transactions. The minimum for Doge to BTCLN on for instance FixedFloat.com is less than a euro worth of coins.

Would it be possible to onboard non-Bitcoin users straight to Lightning, without having them to go through buying their own coins from an exchange, setting up their own wallets, and all the other steps? I believe a hosted service like that would be the most practical.

Any exchange could set up such a service, but as long as the customer doesn't create his own channel, it will only be custodial.


I believe that’s a necessary trade-off. Bitcoin users from after 2018 are not all very technical people. I am not a very technical person myself, although I’ve made an effort to understand how the network works. But to handle, and maintain my own Lightning node just to use Lightning long-term? I could learn it, but I will stop running it eventually.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
January 18, 2021, 07:27:34 AM
I didn't need lightning network since I don't transact bitcoins very often, but right now I'll need it for micro-payments.
You could exchange some low-fee altcoin for Bitcoin on the Lightning Network through an instant exchange and have it send to your custodial LN wallet to avoid on-chain Bitcoin transactions. The minimum for Doge to BTCLN on for instance FixedFloat.com is less than a euro worth of coins.

Would it be possible to onboard non-Bitcoin users straight to Lightning, without having them to go through buying their own coins from an exchange, setting up their own wallets, and all the other steps? I believe a hosted service like that would be the most practical.
Any exchange could set up such a service, but as long as the customer doesn't create his own channel, it will only be custodial.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3139
January 18, 2021, 06:13:11 AM
Would it be possible to onboard non-Bitcoin users straight to Lightning, without having them to go through buying their own coins from an exchange, setting up their own wallets, and all the other steps? I believe a hosted service like that would be the most practical.

Sure! Strike already does it fairly well. Users can easily send Bitcoin/Lightning Network payments without having to worry about the technical details - they just need to deposit some fiat and scan a QR code of a payment invoice. Users can purchase Bitcoin directly through the app if they provide an invoice from a third-party wallet.
copper member
Activity: 909
Merit: 2301
January 18, 2021, 06:07:04 AM
Quote
Would it be possible to onboard non-Bitcoin users straight to Lightning, without having them to go through buying their own coins from an exchange, setting up their own wallets, and all the other steps? I believe a hosted service like that would be the most practical.
Yes, it is possible to go "straight to Lightning". There is for example https://satsback.com/en working only with Lightning Network, where people can receive LN-BTC as a cashback from their daily purchases. But for me it stopped working after September 2020, so there are still some issues, but it is definitely technically possible to create such service.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
January 18, 2021, 06:00:26 AM
Yes but all of these are signed transactions that are kept by the channel founder.

Commitment transactions are stored and can be broadcast by both parties.

8. Alice broadcasts a transaction of her 1000 satoshis to the blockchain which makes the entire procedure useless, because the signed transaction that Bob keeps will not be accepted from the network.

Each new commitment transaction invalidates the previously signed transaction. If Alice broadcasts an old commitment transaction, Bob can immediately publish a penalty transaction which will send ALL funds to his address. It also works the other way around.

Lightning network is known for being fast. But I don't understand where does that "fast" refer to. Is it fast on confirming the transaction?

The whole point of the LN is to decrease the load on the blockchain and make small transactions cost-effective so broadcasting an on-chain transaction after every off-chain transaction would be pointless. When you send a payment over the Lightning Network to a node to which you are not directly connected, multiple nodes pass your payment further along the routing path to the destination node. That's what happens fast.


Would it be possible to onboard non-Bitcoin users straight to Lightning, without having them to go through buying their own coins from an exchange, setting up their own wallets, and all the other steps? I believe a hosted service like that would be the most practical.
legendary
Activity: 1876
Merit: 3139
January 18, 2021, 04:11:59 AM
Yes but all of these are signed transactions that are kept by the channel founder.

Commitment transactions are stored and can be broadcast by both parties.

8. Alice broadcasts a transaction of her 1000 satoshis to the blockchain which makes the entire procedure useless, because the signed transaction that Bob keeps will not be accepted from the network.

Each new commitment transaction invalidates the previously signed transaction. If Alice broadcasts an old commitment transaction, Bob can immediately publish a penalty transaction which will send ALL funds to his address. It also works the other way around.

Lightning network is known for being fast. But I don't understand where does that "fast" refer to. Is it fast on confirming the transaction?

The whole point of the LN is to decrease the load on the blockchain and make small transactions cost-effective so broadcasting an on-chain transaction after every off-chain transaction would be pointless. When you send a payment over the Lightning Network to a node to which you are not directly connected, multiple nodes pass your payment further along the routing path to the destination node. That's what happens fast.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
January 18, 2021, 03:50:46 AM
If the channel opening transaction is not confirmed, you can't use such a channel. Every time a channel is updated (either one spends/receives some coins or routes a payment), both parties sign a new commitment transaction which reflects the updated balance of the channel.
Yes but all of these are signed transactions that are kept by the channel founder. What if Alice broadcasts one transaction of her address that has signed transactions to Bob? I'm trying to understand how the channel founder can prevent from making the entire procedure useless.

It would be better to show it with the steps (It's on 8):

Quote
1. Alice opens a payment channel to Bob, and Bob opens a payment channel to Charlie.
2. Alice wants to buy something from Charlie for 1000 satoshis.
3. Charlie generates a random number and generates its SHA256 hash. Charlie gives that hash to Alice.
4. Alice uses her payment channel to Bob to pay him 1,000 satoshis, but she adds the hash Charlie gave her to the payment along with an extra condition: in order for Bob to claim the payment, he has to provide the data which was used to produce that hash.
5. Bob uses his payment channel to Charlie to pay Charlie 1,000 satoshis, and Bob adds a copy of the same condition that Alice put on the payment she gave Bob.
6. Charlie has the original data that was used to produce the hash (called a pre-image), so Charlie can use it to finalize his payment and fully receive the payment from Bob. By doing so, Charlie necessarily makes the pre-image available to Bob.
7. Bob uses the pre-image to finalize his payment from Alice
8. Alice broadcasts a transaction of her 1000 satoshis to the blockchain which makes the entire procedure useless, because the signed transaction that Bob keeps will not be accepted from the network.

Lightning network is known for being fast. But I don't understand where does that "fast" refer to. Is it fast on confirming the transaction? AFAIK, if the transaction is not written in a block, it can be double-spent.
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