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Topic: The Problem With Altcoins - page 7. (Read 16528 times)

hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 07, 2013, 06:10:08 PM
#66

This realization seems to indicate there can only be one coin that survives ....

I don't think this is the case. As a matter of fact, the open source character of crypto currencies, their similarity and the decentralisation and localisation aspects of multiple larger cryptos exactly fits the properties of this exiting new technology.

There will be more than one.

That is an opinion. But can you refute the logic I presented?

Logically it seems the coin must have a unique feature that requires holding in spite of a lower rate of appreciation, else it makes sense to trade for the coin that is appreciating faster.

For example, you might like the fact that a coin is CPU-only, but unless you believe that is going to make it appreciate faster someday, then it makes more sense for you to hold the coin that is appreciating faster, because CPU-only is only something you deal with when mining and has nothing to do with requiring you to hold the coin.
legendary
Activity: 3122
Merit: 1538
yes
November 07, 2013, 06:02:13 PM
#65

This realization seems to indicate there can only be one coin that survives ....

I don't think this is the case. As a matter of fact, the open source character of crypto currencies, their similarity and the decentralisation and localisation aspects of multiple larger cryptos exactly fits the properties of this exiting new technology.

There will be more than one.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 07, 2013, 05:46:19 PM
#64
I've realized a new dilemma.

Assuming no transaction demand and no reason to hold the coin other than speculative investment demand, then the altcoin has to be appreciating faster than Bitcoin, else there will be a pernicious downward spiral. Litecoin may be caught in that now.

This realization seems to indicate there can only be one coin that survives, unless there is some reason to hold the coin other than its relative rate of appreciation.

One feature that might qualify is strong anonymity. Someone might resist transferring a balance to BTC given BTC's weaker anonymity, if anonymity was required for the holder.
sr. member
Activity: 280
Merit: 250
November 07, 2013, 03:47:25 PM
#63
Even if a new alt-coin emerged that was vastly superior to bitcoin in EVERY SINGLE ONE of its original goals, joe-public, investors and many service providers would probably feel no massive urge to switch.

If the altcoin has sufficient demand (not even any where near Bitcoin) to generate a liquid exchange, then the altcoin can be converted on the fly to pay those who accept only Bitcoin.

So an altcoin doesn't need ANYONE to switch from Bitcoin, it only needs to grab a small percent of the market of new users. Bitcoin only has 350,000 users. There is a long way to go to 7 billion.

The key though is the altcoin needs to present something truly useful that Bitcoin can't copy. So it has staying power.
Agreed.

I think the bold statement is the main reason why todays serious altcoins are here to stay (and justify a rise vs BTC)

The consenus required to do a hardfork is impossible to reach for anything other than fixing threating security problems for anything that actually changes someting. POS is unreachable for bitcoin and a true improvement over it. For everything else there would be an oposition against it and so prevents innovation on BTC itself.

People tend to forget that there is a difference between innvation on crypto and innovation on bitcoin. It doesn't matter that something was initially written for bitcoin since it can't be bitcoin exclusively. Bitcoin can't keep her innovation for itself, but also can't grap new innovation from the other cryptos.

The first crypto to buy is bitcoin, but some of the newcomers might see a feature, I think it will be POS and especially POS rewards, that is nice to have. I expect some of them to move on to altcoins, the % of is up to you, but that's basically the thing that matters.

Even if you don't belive in this there still will be a few idiots, lets say n% of them that want to become early adopters (as we are 350k/worldpop wouldn't be damm early) and they can be that rather on alts. The % is still up to you.

The massive urge to sell BTC for altcoins wouldn't come from the actual benefits for individuals from the altcoins features. It would come from possible profits and saving profits. It's always a bad idea to have all wealth in one thing, so it might be a good idea to move some % into different altcoins. Just to be save, and maby that altcoin will grow faster than bitcoin and there is no practical difference in using as payment.

A smaller crypto can easier double your wealth than a big one, so my point is about marketcapitalisation. Look up the % that all serious altcoins MC have compared to bitcoin and compare it with your estimated % on my previous points ...
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 07, 2013, 12:19:38 PM
#62
Please publicly disagree if you do.

Even if a new alt-coin emerged that was vastly superior to bitcoin in EVERY SINGLE ONE of its original goals, joe-public, investors and many service providers would probably feel no massive urge to switch.

If the altcoin has sufficient demand (not even any where near Bitcoin) to generate a liquid exchange, then the altcoin can be converted on the fly to pay those who accept only Bitcoin.

So an altcoin doesn't need ANYONE to switch from Bitcoin, it only needs to grab a small percent of the market of new users. Bitcoin only has 350,000 users. There is a long way to go to 7 billion.

The key though is the altcoin needs to present something truly useful that Bitcoin can't copy. So it has staying power.

I think if altcoins are to succeed (not necessarily match bitcoin, but run alongside as a significant alternative economy trading with bitcoin) then it will take one of four forms:

1. One or more of the current altcoins (or even brand new ones), instead of being minor twists on bitcoin, need to correlate several good ideas (and good developers) into ONE coin and aim to constantly innovate in ways that bitcoin (or at least the Foundation) are scared to, in order to attract enough "purists" over to make it viable.

Agreed.
newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 4
November 07, 2013, 07:34:10 AM
#61
I agree largely with the article, though I still feel altcoins could play a valuable role in the future.

However, once the dumb masses are in the main coin, it will become much more difficult to compete with that coin. Because the dumb masses don't care about decentralization, anonymity, and the benefit of mining on PCs can be offset with palm-scanning ATM machines for Bitcoin (the dumb masses will blissfully scan their palm). We are not yet there, but the window of opportunity is rapidly closing.

I think this underlines the true magnitude of the network effect (as discussed in the article). While most of the original bit-pilgrims were drawn by the decentralised nature of bitcoin, the anonymity it promised (including those with less-than-legal purposes), and idealistic/geeky aspects of its cryptography and its economics, many of the next wave were simply speculators marveling at rapidly rising graphs and sensing an opportunity. Since then, the "third wave" of bitcoin users have given it a try because they've seen it advertised, found it a convenient way of storing wealth and making online payments. Even if a new alt-coin emerged that was vastly superior to bitcoin in EVERY SINGLE ONE of its original goals, joe-public, investors and many service providers would probably feel no massive urge to switch.

Consider supercoin which has some radically better features than Bitcoin. Because Bitcoin has over $1bn riding on its success there is a significant investment by all the people who use it, own it, mine it, and otherwise profit from the ecosystem. So there would be huge incentive for Bitcoin dev to clone the software changes which make supercoin so super, even if it means a hard fork. Such a hard fork would be tolerated as all bitcoiners want to protect their own interests. As soon as these features are released in a new bitcoin version, then supercoin becomes irrelevant.

In this case, supercoin was not irrelevant, because it galvanised an otherwise reluctant bitcoin to innovate. Anyone who believes altcoins (in their current form) could rival or even supercede bitcoin is deluded. But (semi) thriving altcoin economies provide real-world stress testing for new ideas (more so than testnet) that could be used to improve bitcoin. I think if altcoins are to succeed (not necessarily match bitcoin, but run alongside as a significant alternative economy trading with bitcoin) then it will take one of four forms:

1. One or more of the current altcoins (or even brand new ones), instead of being minor twists on bitcoin, need to correlate several good ideas (and good developers) into ONE coin and aim to constantly innovate in ways that bitcoin (or at least the Foundation) are scared to, in order to attract enough "purists" over to make it viable.

2. A payment system (not necessarily a single currency) that allows decentralised, anonymous, CHEAP sending of fiat (or fiat-linked) "currency". Something like Ripple (which from my reading appears to be a lot more decentralised than they make out to be, perhaps to attract venture capitalists' investments) - it would be possible now the code is open source to build clients designed not to link addresses, tumblers would be possible etc, and it if the network grew big enough there would be no need to trust the company's own "validators" - I haven't however used the system so can't say much in detail about it. Something else that could take off is Open Transactions.

3. Something built as an "extension" to Bitcoin. #2 above could be achieved with something like "Coloured Coins" or "MasterCoin" built ON-TOP of the bitcoin architecture. MasterCoin, as well as NXT, plan on using an "exodus block" for coins moved over from BTC instead of a genesis block, utilising the ubiquity of bitcoin rather than competing against it, allowing people to trade out of bitcoin when they require special features, then trading back in again.

4. Something COMPLETELY different.
full member
Activity: 185
Merit: 121
November 07, 2013, 05:23:13 AM
#60
bitcoin will always be my main girl. sometimes i'll mess around with litecoin because she's younger and faster, but bitcoin will always be my first love.

I thought litecoin was a he. Have you and (s)he gotten to third base yet?
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 07, 2013, 03:35:03 AM
#59
Quote
Because it was started earlier and has had a greater opportunity to grow and attract users, Bitcoin has a market larger by a wide margin than all the markets of all the altcoins put together, and this makes it vastly more useful as a currency. To defeat Bitcoin, an altcoin would require not just superior technology, but such vastly superior technology as to be an advance over Bitcoin comparable to the advance Bitcoin represents over fiat currency. Furthermore, a truly great innovation would much better serve people by being incorporated into future versions of Bitcoin rather than by requiring them to switch to something else.

^ THIS. Absolutely my sentiments.


THIS++

GREAT article.

I have debated the author in private email. Essentially he doesn't believe an altcoin can gain network effects. My response was basically this.
hero member
Activity: 546
Merit: 500
November 07, 2013, 12:30:37 AM
#58
Quote
Because it was started earlier and has had a greater opportunity to grow and attract users, Bitcoin has a market larger by a wide margin than all the markets of all the altcoins put together, and this makes it vastly more useful as a currency. To defeat Bitcoin, an altcoin would require not just superior technology, but such vastly superior technology as to be an advance over Bitcoin comparable to the advance Bitcoin represents over fiat currency. Furthermore, a truly great innovation would much better serve people by being incorporated into future versions of Bitcoin rather than by requiring them to switch to something else.

^ THIS. Absolutely my sentiments.


THIS++

GREAT article.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 06, 2013, 08:27:45 PM
#57
Anonymint

look at the Protoshares system right now -

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitshares-pts-formerly-protoshares-mandatory-upgrade-snapshot-announcement-325261

this could make for good analysis

this algorithm seems to be not only "memory hard"  

but in the equation and ratio it seems to bias memory "function" over pure process

I believe it is a fail. I'm awaiting confirmation. Perhaps I've misunderstood something:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3499217

Appearing more likely I am correct:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3504302
legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 1102
November 06, 2013, 08:10:38 PM
#56
There is no problem with Altcoins, some are better and more secure then Bitcoin...
hero member
Activity: 775
Merit: 1000
November 06, 2013, 10:19:06 AM
#55
So much FUD, so little time!..

One thought that struck me with that article (and other similar commentary) is that the author is just incredibly greedy and doesn't want his unbelievable luck* to be inflated away by competition. Well, I hate to break it to you (nah, who am I kidding? Muahaha!) but:
-anyone can print coupons that are redeemable for their services,
-what about shares and stock options?
All of these alternatives dilute and steal value from earlier money-like accounting units. It's a fact of life. Real progress would be to enable better ways for people to "create their own money" (to fund their business ventures for example), but without the usury and friction from old money elites.

*unless he's the creator or an early developer who risked a huge amount.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 06, 2013, 10:11:16 AM
#54
Anonymint

look at the Protoshares system right now -

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitshares-pts-formerly-protoshares-mandatory-upgrade-snapshot-announcement-325261

this could make for good analysis

this algorithm seems to be not only "memory hard"  

but in the equation and ratio it seems to bias memory "function" over pure process

I believe it is a fail. I'm awaiting confirmation. Perhaps I've misunderstood something:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3499217
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
‘Try to be nice’
November 06, 2013, 06:34:59 AM
#53
As a Treasury official said some decade ago about the time he also said, "we will burn the fingers of the goldbugs up to their armpits", it has always been the plan to go after the millionaires and steal back all their gains to the elite (skip to 36:35 min of the linked video) who run the fiat system. And Bitcoin is an amazingly great tracking tool to aid them in this coming global confiscation via taxation of the rich process. Note the elite super rich are always excluded from such gestapos.

Former IRS Commissioner and the man who wrote much of the law, said to Aaron Russo (producer of Bette Midler, The Rose, Trading Places, etc) in Jewish Yiddish language, "nothing will help you". Skip to the 37 min point in the linked video.

The elite know exactly what they are doing by launching Bitcoin via the fictitious anonymous identity "Satoshi".

Nick Rothschild told Aaron Russo what the goal is.

Nick Rockefeller.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
‘Try to be nice’
November 06, 2013, 06:22:01 AM
#52
Anonymint

look at the Protoshares system right now -

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/bitshares-pts-formerly-protoshares-mandatory-upgrade-snapshot-announcement-325261

this could make for good analysis

this algorithm seems to be not only "memory hard"  

but in the equation and ratio it seems to bias memory "function" over pure process we see now Digital Ocean systems being setup for it

will be interesting to see what occurs.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 06, 2013, 05:36:14 AM
#51
As a Treasury official said some decade ago about the time he also said, "we will burn the fingers of the goldbugs up to their armpits", it has always been the plan to go after the millionaires and steal back all their gains to the elite (skip to 36:35 min of the linked video) who run the fiat system. And Bitcoin is an amazingly great tracking tool to aid them in this coming global confiscation via taxation of the rich process. Note the elite super rich are always excluded from such gestapos.

Former (Jewish?) IRS Commissioner and the man who wrote much of the tax code law, said to (Jew) Aaron Russo (producer of Bette Midler, The Rose, Trading Places, etc) in Ashkenazi Jewish Yiddish language, "nothing will help you". Skip to the 37 min point in the linked video.

The elite know exactly what they are doing by launching Bitcoin via the fictitious anonymous identity "Satoshi".

Nick Rockefeller told Aaron Russo what the goal is.

P.S. The Ashkenazi Jews have a much higher average IQ of 117, and many elite are Ashkenazi Jews. The says nothing against all Jews however.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 06, 2013, 03:24:23 AM
#50
One big hole in his (and Moldbug's) "there can only be one" theory, is that if a merchant only accepts BTC and I have only an altcoin, then assuming liquid exchange markets between the altcoin and BTC along with clever programming, I can pay with my altcoin at that merchant with one click. So there isn't any cost in terms of market mass to being not first in the market.

Just going to take a stab at this one thing here but, doesn't this imply that

1) someone has to use the resources to run such an exchange, when the alternative is to not waste those resourses and use Bitcoin
2) there must be enough other users to make the exchange liquid
3) one of you, probably you, has to go through the trouble of setting up an account on such an exchange, and software on your wallet, when it is easier to simply use Bitcoin

Essentially, while yes, the system can be patched to work, there is still the issue of fighting against the established system (using extra energy and resources) instead of simply capitulating to the lower energy-state system that doesn't have the extra friction.

Appreciate that stab.

True, but if the cost is insignificant relative to the positive benefits to using the altcoin, then my point remains valid.

Specifically (as we have discussed over at the Mini-blockchain design), Bitcoin simply can't scale without mining going to cartels like Amazon, because for one reason the blockchain is becoming too large to be handled by normal computers and net connection bandwidth. Yet net bandwidth will scale fine to transaction volume otherwise, so it is the incorrect blockchain design which forces this outcome, as well as the loss of debasement to fund mining (because tx fees can be 0 or even refunded if we made them mandatory see linked thread for more detailed explanation).

Satoshi said this is what he expected.

And another extremely important feature from my expectation, is lack of anonymity in Bitcoin. The G20 is going to be hunting down all private wealth and nationalizing it, because the western nations are far beyond bankrupt. For example, the UK has a 550% total debt-to-GDP ratio, ditto for all western nations including newly industrialized such as China (study the numbers as I have!), not including that most unfunded social system promises future liabilities are kept off balance sheet, and we have up to another $quadrillion in credit-swap derivatives at the TBTF banks guaranteeing that interest rates won't rise (we wouldn't have had ZIRP without them), and recent official government plans (see the .gov websites) for the G7 indicate that bail-ins will fall on depositers and the cost of derivatives failure will be fall on deposits.

This means a total wipeout of private wealth.

So of course what is private wealth going to do? It is going to try to hide and what better place to hide than an anonymous decentralized coin.

The anonymity of using Tor with Bitcoin isn't anonymous because Tor is basically already cracked by the NSA, because for one thing all such low-latency mix-nets (including IP2 darknet, etc) are subject to timing attacks (discovery) when the entity can see all the traffic  between peers. They don't need to be able to decrypt the onion routing, they just need to see the timing of when packets are relayed. Research has shown this. Also the NSA has other attacks against Tor.

Coin tumblrs (aka laundries) don't really help, because the probability of your identity not being knowable (is not dependent on what you do, rather) is proportional to the number of tumblr users (in the same time period you used it) who do not reveal their identity downstream 50 to 100 transactions hence. Which is basically none of them, because there is no IP address anonymity built-in to Bitcoin. So those who are relying on these coin mixers to protect them, are blissfully ignorant fools. They haven't thought it out.

Bitcoin is a honeypot where all the libertarians are putting their "illegal activity" (everything will be illegal, remember what POTUS Bush Jr. said, "you are either with us, or against us") in the public ledger including implicitly their identities. The governments have not yet ruled on whether each Bitcoin transaction is a taxable capital gain event, so later say 2020 as the world descends into Madmax implosion, they hunt all of us down with huge tax and penalties for not reporting (and recent proposed legislation is they can cancel your USA passport if the IRS rules you owe $50,000+ and you don't pay). And don't think Europe will be any better. France is already pushing the EU to implement under the EU federalization such as a unified wealth tax, and as that can basically go to 75% or more as the crisis unfolds.

As a Treasury official said some decade ago about the time he also said, "we will burn the fingers of the goldbugs up to their armpits", it has always been the plan to go after the millionaires and steal back all their gains to the elite (skip to 36:35 min of the linked video) who run the fiat system. And Bitcoin is an amazingly great tracking tool to aid them in this coming global confiscation via taxation of the rich process. Note the elite super rich are always excluded from such gestapos.

The government doesn't want to shut down Bitcoin nor the internet, they are wonderful steps towards a one-world, digital tracking system money. The mining will be owned by the corporations, thus the often claimed concept of decentralized control is thus nonsense. We've already lost it, we can't even hard-fork Bitcoin because the pools already own such decisions about changes to Bitcoin.

If you love everything good about Bitcoin, you will love even more an altcoin which fixes these issues. And believe me, it is coming...

Of course those who are already rich in Bitcoins, e.g. my internet friend who has 10,000 BTC, might fight against the superior coin, yet I think they will be opportunists and place some bets on diversification.

And so there will be another chance for those who missed the boat on Bitcoin to get in early. And this is will provide some dilution against those who got insanely rich off of Bitcoin and not consumerate with the level of risk and effort they applied to bettering the world.

Competition is a good thing! And one of the benefits of decentralized digital currencies is the big hole I have explained in the theory that "there can only be one".

Although I believe that "there can only be one" if there are not huge weaknesses in that coin, I also believe Bitcoin has such weakness and they can never be fixed in Bitcoin. For example, there is no way you will get Bitcoin to adopt a Mini-blockchain, because then the cartlized pools lose their control.

However, once the dumb masses are in the main coin, it will become much more difficult to compete with that coin. Because the dumb masses don't care about decentralization, anonymity, and the benefit of mining on PCs can be offset with palm-scanning ATM machines for Bitcoin (the dumb masses will blissfully scan their palm). We are not yet there, but the window of opportunity is rapidly closing.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
November 06, 2013, 12:31:53 AM
#49
One big hole in his (and Moldbug's) "there can only be one" theory, is that if a merchant only accepts BTC and I have only an altcoin, then assuming liquid exchange markets between the altcoin and BTC along with clever programming, I can pay with my altcoin at that merchant with one click. So there isn't any cost in terms of market mass to being not first in the market.

Just going to take a stab at this one thing here but, doesn't this imply that

1) someone has to use the resources to run such an exchange, when the alternative is to not waste those resourses and use Bitcoin
2) there must be enough other users to make the exchange liquid
3) one of you, probably you, has to go through the trouble of setting up an account on such an exchange, and software on your wallet, when it is easier to simply use Bitcoin

Essentially, while yes, the system can be patched to work, there is still the issue of fighting against the established system (using extra energy and resources) instead of simply capitulating to the lower energy-state system that doesn't have the extra friction.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 06, 2013, 12:02:47 AM
#48

The author Daniel Krawisz expounds verbally:

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/e53-monetary-darwinism/

(skip 30 or 34 mins into the audio stream)

I've invited him to debate me, awaiting a response.

One big hole in his (and Moldbug's) "there can only be one" theory, is that if a merchant only accepts BTC and I have only an altcoin, then assuming liquid exchange markets between the altcoin and BTC along with clever programming, I can pay with my altcoin at that merchant with one click. So there isn't any significant cost in terms of market mass to being not first in the market.

Quote
one would expect the mining difficulty to go up to the point where
investment in mining technology produces similar returns to investment in
the rest of the economy. And, of course, as I mentioned above, it is false
that Scrypt-coins are immune to ASIC mining

1. With CPU-only mining, I expect difficulty to exceed any reasonable
level that can be returned on investment, because millions of people will
do it because they easily can (download and click) and they won't correlate
to their insignificant increase in electric bill nor the cost of the PC they
already own applied to their part-time, hobbyist mining.

2. Scrypt can indeed by made immune to ASIC and GPUs. You should study it
more closely.

Quote
This argument highlights the emphasis from altcoin adherents on mining
rather than on monetization. There is no logical reason why any ordinary
user of Bitcoin should want to become a miner in the first place.

Er, what about obtaining coin quickly and anonymously with a download and click to run a CPU-only miner?

Obtaining Bitcoins is problematic, slow and complex. The new Bitcoin ATM machines that will be every where globally "by the end of 2014" will require a hand print, government id, and face photo. My gosh how much more one-world currency, 666 could it be?

Quote
Early on, it was profitable for casual Bitcoin users to be miners because very
few knew about Bitcoin. Mining now requires a capital investment, just
like everything else in the economy.

Er, I don't have to buy another PC if I already own one that is often idle (at night when I sleep for example).

Quote
A transition to lower profitability and greater capital
 intensiveness is inevitable for any maturing industry.

Yes, but that doesn't mean those two items can't be provided by decentralized peers.

Quote
This does not make it elitist; it simply means that the industry is
growing increasingly specialized.

Conflation of issues. What makes Bitcoin elitist is the incorrect technical design. Specialization is independent of elitism.

This is a smart guy who thinks he is smarter than he is. He is young, he will learn from older farts like me to expect the unexpected and not be so smug claiming omniscience.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
September 01, 2013, 05:32:33 PM
#47
When credit and debit card transactions can confirm (become irreversable) in under 10 minutes instead of 3-6 months then it would be legitimate to complain about Bitcoin.
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