Topic: The Reality of Masternode Centralization (Read 7919 times)

Quote from: illodin on June 08, 2015, 02:21:21 PM

Or are you saying Monero is NSA proof?

Monero has a better chance to be NSA proof at some point, with sufficient operational safeguards and care. That's the nature of a system where the most critical privacy functions are performed without the need for counterparties.

The appropriate present day analogy is PGP, which seems largely if not entirely NSA-proof if used carefully, as opposed to Tor, which seems to be cryptographic swiss cheese.

celestio

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Quote from: celestio on June 08, 2015, 02:14:27 PM

Quote from: binaryFate on June 08, 2015, 11:24:59 AM

Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

Who made that claim? Not me. Still you're implying I did. Because if I did, then I would claim Bitcoin and DuckNote are equivalent, which I don't.

Ugh, you're most definitely a troll.

In the context of them being anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, you implied that they are equally anonymous in the eyes of the NSA. Nothing else in your quote shows otherwise. In fact, to show just how skewed your view is, you're basically also saying that Bitcoin for ex, is as anonymous as Monero or Dash.

Quote from: celestio on June 08, 2015, 02:14:27 PM

If two things are anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, does it matter which one is "more" anonymous? Aren't they both anonymous enough? Or are you saying Monero is NSA proof?

If you think I'm saying "Bitcoin for ex, is as anonymous as Monero or Dash", you're also thinking Bitcoin is anonymous to everyone else but the NSA. Are you?

Actually you're right there, your quote says "If two things", so Bitocin can't be included.

illodin

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Quote from: binaryFate on June 08, 2015, 11:24:59 AM

Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

Who made that claim? Not me. Still you're implying I did. Because if I did, then I would claim Bitcoin and DuckNote are equivalent, which I don't.

Ugh, you're most definitely a troll.

In the context of them being anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, you implied that they are equally anonymous in the eyes of the NSA. Nothing else in your quote shows otherwise. In fact, to show just how skewed your view is, you're basically also saying that Bitcoin for ex, is as anonymous as Monero or Dash.

If two things are anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, does it matter which one is "more" anonymous? Aren't they both anonymous enough? Or are you saying Monero is NSA proof?

If you think I'm saying "Bitcoin for ex, is as anonymous as Monero or Dash", you're also thinking Bitcoin is anonymous to everyone else but the NSA. Are you?

celestio

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Quote from: binaryFate on June 08, 2015, 11:24:59 AM

Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

Who made that claim? Not me. Still you're implying I did. Because if I did, then I would claim Bitcoin and DuckNote are equivalent, which I don't.

Ugh, you're most definitely a troll.

In the context of them being anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, you implied that they are equally anonymous in the eyes of the NSA(As how can one be more anonymous than another in the eyes of an entity to which neither are anonymous to?). Nothing else in your quote shows otherwise. ~~In fact, to show just how skewed your view is, you're basically also saying that Bitcoin for ex, is as anonymous as Monero or Dash.~~- Wrong, "If two things", though those two things aren't specified, but adding Bitcoin is adding a "third thing" and absolutely wrong to do.

Quote from: illodin on June 08, 2015, 01:56:26 PM

If two things are anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, does it matter which one is "more" anonymous? Aren't they both anonymous enough? Or are you saying Monero is NSA proof?

The reality of the matter(Not even taking in account the levels of anonymity provided by each crypto) is Dash's anonymity is more susceptible to attack than Monero's. Obviously the reason is because the masternodes can simply be taken down by their hosting providers(As the majority are hosted on servers online), while no such thing can happen with Monero. Dash can be "strong armed"(Take down most of it's nodes even if temporarily), Monero cannot.

Edited

generalizethis

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 01:17:12 PM

Quote from: binaryFate on June 08, 2015, 11:24:59 AM

Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

Who made that claim? Not me. Still you're implying I did. Because if I did, then I would claim Bitcoin and DuckNote are equivalent, which I don't.

You implied they are both anonymous enough even if one is superior to the other in regards to anonymity.

I didn't imply either being superior to the other.

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 01:17:12 PM

Who knows what you think about Ducknote and Bitcoin.

Doesn't matter what I think, what matters is whether they are equivalent in the context of this conversation i.e. anonymity.

I implied that by this whole thread. Wink

Given that Monero doesn't have the masternode attack vector, they are not equivalent privacy technologies.

illodin

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 01:17:12 PM

Quote from: binaryFate on June 08, 2015, 11:24:59 AM

Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

Who made that claim? Not me. Still you're implying I did. Because if I did, then I would claim Bitcoin and DuckNote are equivalent, which I don't.

You implied they are both anonymous enough even if one is superior to the other in regards to anonymity.

I didn't imply either being superior to the other.

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 01:17:12 PM

Who knows what you think about Ducknote and Bitcoin.

Doesn't matter what I think, what matters is whether they are equivalent in the context of this conversation i.e. anonymity.

generalizethis

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Quote from: binaryFate on June 08, 2015, 11:24:59 AM

Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

Who made that claim? Not me. Still you're implying I did. Because if I did, then I would claim Bitcoin and DuckNote are equivalent, which I don't.

You implied they are both anonymous enough even if one is superior to the other in regards to anonymity. Who knows what you think about Ducknote and Bitcoin.

illodin

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Quote from: binaryFate on June 08, 2015, 11:24:59 AM

Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

Who made that claim? Not me. Still you're implying I did. Because if I did, then I would claim Bitcoin and DuckNote are equivalent, which I don't.

binaryFate

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Still wild and free

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 10:56:16 AM

If two things are anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, does it matter which one is "more" anonymous? Aren't they both anonymous enough? Or are you saying Monero is NSA proof?

This is a flawed logic. Monero's privacy is achieved very simply, at the cryptographic level. Dash one is just a technical obfuscation achieved in a fairly complex network of interconnected hardware devices.
We can't affirm with 100% certainty that the NSA can't break through Monero's privacy or Dash's privacy, but IT IS THE ONLY THING they have in common. Otherwise these are two entirely different beasts.
Claiming that because both don't hold 100% certainty, they're equivalent, is really crappy sophism.

This is also a dangerous logic. Following that dangerous logic, we should never try to improve TOR or I2P, research and elaborate tools to keep our privacy and liberty as strong as possible, etc. Since you'd say nothing is NSA proof anyway. So what Sherlock, better give up then? Because *maybe, only maybe* ECDSA is not NSA proof, let's rely on 32-bits RSA instead?

illodin

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Quote from: illodin on June 08, 2015, 10:44:54 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 10:14:24 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 09:52:32 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 05, 2015, 01:02:27 PM

But you trust the masternodes everyone is using best practices to keep private? Roll Eyes

No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. That's because DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks.

Quote from: illodin on June 08, 2015, 10:44:54 AM

As for masternode ASICs, you're smoking some good shit. Too bad we're not all in the same place, you could at least share it.

My shit still isn't as good as americanpegasus' or Risto's shit.

Masternode snooping is not a sybil attack.

Let me rephrase then so the intent becomes clear: No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks (1000 DASH collateral) and spying nodes (multiple rounds using random nodes).

The nodes randomness is useless if an attacker owns (or can see) what a large portion of nodes are doing. Or else the graphs dashers like to post outlining the # of nodes needed break dash's anonymity are pretty stupid to have on hand as evidence of dash's security. Wink

Hence the multiple rounds specification. As the number of rounds go up, the odds against go up astronomically.

The number of nodes controlled by an attacker determines privacy, hence why centralization is a big deal. If you are mixing multiple rounds in a system that is 95% (% of mn's held in just 5 countries) clear, you're privacy is still pretty weak compared to a coin like Monero irregardless of how many rounds you choose.

If two things are anonymous to everyone else but the NSA, does it matter which one is "more" anonymous? Aren't they both anonymous enough? Or are you saying Monero is NSA proof?

generalizethis

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 10:14:24 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 09:52:32 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 05, 2015, 01:02:27 PM

But you trust the masternodes everyone is using best practices to keep private? Roll Eyes

No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. That's because DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks.

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 10:14:24 AM

As for masternode ASICs, you're smoking some good shit. Too bad we're not all in the same place, you could at least share it.

My shit still isn't as good as americanpegasus' or Risto's shit.

Masternode snooping is not a sybil attack.

Let me rephrase then so the intent becomes clear: No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks (1000 DASH collateral) and spying nodes (multiple rounds using random nodes).

The nodes randomness is useless if an attacker owns (or can see) what a large portion of nodes are doing. Or else the graphs dashers like to post outlining the # of nodes needed break dash's anonymity are pretty stupid to have on hand as evidence of dash's security. Wink

Hence the multiple rounds specification. As the number of rounds go up, the odds against go up astronomically.

The number of nodes controlled by an attacker determines privacy, hence why centralization is a big deal. If you are mixing multiple rounds in a system that is 95% (% of mn's held in just 5 countries) clear, your privacy is still pretty weak compared to a coin like Monero irregardless of how many rounds you choose.

*Of course, each round creates a fee, so why wouldn't you want people to have to increase their rounds to achieve the illusion of privacy? Wink

illodin

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 09:52:32 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 05, 2015, 01:02:27 PM

But you trust the masternodes everyone is using best practices to keep private? Roll Eyes

No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. That's because DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks.

Quote from: iCEBREAKER on June 08, 2015, 09:41:02 AM

As for masternode ASICs, you're smoking some good shit. Too bad we're not all in the same place, you could at least share it.

My shit still isn't as good as americanpegasus' or Risto's shit.

Masternode snooping is not a sybil attack.

Let me rephrase then so the intent becomes clear: No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks (1000 DASH collateral) and spying nodes (multiple rounds using random nodes).

The nodes randomness is useless if an attacker owns (or can see) what a large portion of nodes are doing. Or else the graphs dashers like to post outlining the # of nodes needed break dash's anonymity are pretty stupid to have on hand as evidence of dash's security. Wink

Hence the multiple rounds specification. As the number of rounds go up, the odds against go up astronomically.

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Quote from: TheDasher on June 08, 2015, 09:10:02 AM

How is ponzi-node blinding coming along?

It isn't. Boy genius Duffield didn't realize ponzi-node blinding wrecks DASH's existing infrastructure until it was too late.

Did McDuff take it off the DASH roadmap?

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 09:52:32 AM

Quote from: generalizethis on June 05, 2015, 01:02:27 PM

But you trust the masternodes everyone is using best practices to keep private? Roll Eyes

No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. That's because DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks.

Quote from: generalizethis on June 08, 2015, 09:52:32 AM

As for masternode ASICs, you're smoking some good shit. Too bad we're not all in the same place, you could at least share it.

My shit still isn't as good as americanpegasus' or Risto's shit.

Masternode snooping is not a sybil attack.

Let me rephrase then so the intent becomes clear: No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks (1000 DASH collateral) and spying nodes (multiple rounds using random nodes).

The nodes randomness is useless if an attacker owns (or can see) what a large portion of nodes are doing. Or else the graphs dashers like to post outlining the # of nodes needed break dash's anonymity are pretty stupid to have on hand as evidence of dash's security. Wink

illodin

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 05, 2015, 01:02:27 PM

But you trust the masternodes everyone is using best practices to keep private? Roll Eyes

No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. That's because DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks.

As for masternode ASICs, you're smoking some good shit. Too bad we're not all in the same place, you could at least share it.

My shit still isn't as good as americanpegasus' or Risto's shit.

Masternode snooping is not a sybil attack.

Let me rephrase then so the intent becomes clear: No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks (1000 DASH collateral) and spying nodes (multiple rounds using random nodes).

generalizethis

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Facts are more efficient than fud

Quote from: generalizethis on June 05, 2015, 01:02:27 PM

But you trust the masternodes everyone is using best practices to keep private? Roll Eyes

No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. That's because DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks.

Quote from: TheDasher on June 08, 2015, 09:10:02 AM

As for masternode ASICs, you're smoking some good shit. Too bad we're not all in the same place, you could at least share it.

My shit still isn't as good as americanpegasus' or Risto's shit.

Masternode snooping is not a sybil attack.

iCEBREAKER

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Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

How is ponzi-node blinding coming along?

It isn't. Boy genius Duffield didn't realize ponzi-node blinding wrecks DASH's existing infrastructure until it was too late.

illodin

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Quote from: generalizethis on June 05, 2015, 01:02:27 PM

But you trust the masternodes everyone is using best practices to keep private? Roll Eyes

No, the thing is I don't have to trust everyone to use best practices. That's because DASH mixing was designed to be resilient against sybil attacks.