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Topic: There was no DAO hack - page 5. (Read 11602 times)

full member
Activity: 213
Merit: 100
June 18, 2016, 10:45:07 PM
#93
The bug on DAO has been known for weeks but no substantial effort has been made in order to fix it that is why the dao attacker was able to have enough time and planning to do the heist. And I do not think this is just a one man team effort, it may compose of some group that has hidden agenda to thwart DAO as they have their own digital currency on their back.

could The DAO creators be sued for negligence, for ...

1- the bug itself
2- publishing it

That is quite a possibility and trust and confidence to these people will be withdrawn unless they do the correct solution for this problem.
member
Activity: 106
Merit: 10
June 18, 2016, 10:35:36 PM
#92
The bug on DAO has been known for weeks but no substantial effort has been made in order to fix it that is why the dao attacker was able to have enough time and planning to do the heist. And I do not think this is just a one man team effort, it may compose of some group that has hidden agenda to thwart DAO as they have their own digital currency on their back.

could The DAO creators be sued for negligence, for ...

1- the bug itself
2- publishing it
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 18, 2016, 10:26:39 PM
#91
If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

Satoshi had a term for that, he called it attacking the network:

As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network ...
  - Satoshi Nakamoto (bitcoin.pdf)

So, no, there has been no "hack" or "attack" so far, but Vitalik, Tual, and their cronies are working on one.

Soft forks are 51% attacks. At best, when done for relatively-benign upgrade purposes, they demonstrate a vulnerability of the network and should still raise some level of concern that the developers and miners are able to conspire to pull off a 51% attack. When done transfer control over coins, that is outright theft.

Smooth if forks are authorized by a protocol that was designed in the coin from the start, i.e. an ability to vote on changes by stake holders for a PoS coin (e.g. DASH), then that appears to not be a 51% attack. But otherwise I agree with you, and when you have the same group of devs from the ICO able to control the politik then they are essentially running the enterprise.

There is a grey area where someone from the outside creates a fork and the users and miners spontaneously decide to switch over to it. This can be argued to be a feature of decentralization and open source, and necessary to correct deficiencies. Yet it is still a 51% attack. If done with proof-of-burn, then it is not a 51% attack.

But your analysis of the issues here seems to be oversimplified because the law interacts with all this to create more complex scenarios. Please read this:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15271289

I'm not really sure that "authorized voting forks" are even compatible with Satoshi's original design at all.

He wrote that the nature of the system required that its core properties be set in stone forever. Probably the ideas of governance and voting were considered by Satoshi(s) during the years of development, as they are pretty obvious ones to consider.

A reasonable conclusion (and one I have reached somewhat independently) is that "set in stone" is required because there is no good way to differentiate between good changes and bad changes. Allow changes (e.g. by "voting") and the structure collapses in on itself.

Limited time to read or comment more, will do so later.

You are raising the point that PoS has security flaws, but I was treating that as an orthogonal concern.
full member
Activity: 213
Merit: 100
June 18, 2016, 10:04:15 PM
#90
The bug on DAO has been known for weeks but no substantial effort has been made in order to fix it

I thought that the whole point of Decentralised Autonomous Organisations is that once they are out there, they are immutable. Hence Vitalik's dylemma with ETH fork.


A code should be immutable unless there is a bug in it and people with dark agenda will try to abuse it to no end.
hero member
Activity: 983
Merit: 502
June 18, 2016, 09:59:06 PM
#89
The bug on DAO has been known for weeks but no substantial effort has been made in order to fix it

I thought that the whole point of Decentralised Autonomous Organisations is that once they are out there, they are immutable. Hence Vitalik's dylemma with ETH fork.
full member
Activity: 213
Merit: 100
June 18, 2016, 09:36:32 PM
#88
The bug on DAO has been known for weeks but no substantial effort has been made in order to fix it that is why the dao attacker was able to have enough time and planning to do the heist. And I do not think this is just a one man team effort, it may compose of some group that has hidden agenda to thwart DAO as they have their own digital currency on their back.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
June 18, 2016, 09:29:52 PM
#87
If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

Satoshi had a term for that, he called it attacking the network:

As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network ...
  - Satoshi Nakamoto (bitcoin.pdf)

So, no, there has been no "hack" or "attack" so far, but Vitalik, Tual, and their cronies are working on one.

Soft forks are 51% attacks. At best, when done for relatively-benign upgrade purposes, they demonstrate a vulnerability of the network and should still raise some level of concern that the developers and miners are able to conspire to pull off a 51% attack. When done transfer control over coins, that is outright theft.

Smooth if forks are authorized by a protocol that was designed in the coin from the start, i.e. an ability to vote on changes by stake holders for a PoS coin (e.g. DASH), then that appears to not be a 51% attack. But otherwise I agree with you, and when you have the same group of devs from the ICO able to control the politik then they are essentially running the enterprise.

There is a grey area where someone from the outside creates a fork and the users and miners spontaneously decide to switch over to it. This can be argued to be a feature of decentralization and open source, and necessary to correct deficiencies. Yet it is still a 51% attack. If done with proof-of-burn, then it is not a 51% attack.

But your analysis of the issues here seems to be oversimplified because the law interacts with all this to create more complex scenarios. Please read this:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15271289

I'm not really sure that "authorized voting forks" are even compatible with Satoshi's original design at all.

He wrote that the nature of the system required that its core properties be set in stone forever. Probably the ideas of governance and voting were considered by Satoshi(s) during the years of development, as they are pretty obvious ones to consider.

A reasonable conclusion (and one I have reached somewhat independently) is that "set in stone" is required because there is no good way to differentiate between good changes and bad changes. Allow changes (e.g. by "voting") and the structure collapses in on itself.

Limited time to read or comment more, will do so later.
legendary
Activity: 2002
Merit: 1113
June 18, 2016, 09:22:58 PM
#86
Bag hold + Lie your ass off and play games and cash out is the motive / agenda.
That's what the ETH supporters are currently doing.

After the hard fork, they all have to work longer as their $50 million will be lost back to the DAO. Let wait and see.
You do realize that ETH will lose all the value that the underlying technology (the blockchain) has? If they take back those coins, they are no better than the Fed and they lose decentralization and immutability. This suggestion is horrible. Nobody should have any right nor power to take anyone's coins in a decentralized system regardless of whether they are legit, stolen or whatever.

Correct. After this HF you must call it VBCoin, not ETH.

If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

i think, you would not better now that a scammer..maybe more, if i ask 20$ at atm and i receive more the bank does going not run after me..it will  stop the blood flow and do jumped up  the champagne to the next season..isn't a hack is just a feat.
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 18, 2016, 08:42:25 PM
#85
If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

Satoshi had a term for that, he called it attacking the network:

As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network ...
  - Satoshi Nakamoto (bitcoin.pdf)

So, no, there has been no "hack" or "attack" so far, but Vitalik, Tual, and their cronies are working on one.

Soft forks are 51% attacks. At best, when done for relatively-benign upgrade purposes, they demonstrate a vulnerability of the network and should still raise some level of concern that the developers and miners are able to conspire to pull off a 51% attack. When done transfer control over coins, that is outright theft.

Smooth if forks are authorized by a protocol that was designed in the coin from the start, i.e. an ability to vote on changes by stake holders for a PoS coin (e.g. DASH), then that appears to not be a 51% attack. But otherwise I agree with you, and when you have the same group of devs from the ICO able to control the politik then they are essentially running the enterprise.

There is a grey area where someone from the outside creates a fork and the users and miners spontaneously decide to switch over to it. This can be argued to be a feature of decentralization and open source, and necessary to correct deficiencies. Yet it is still a 51% attack. If done with proof-of-burn, then it is not a 51% attack.

But your analysis of the issues here seems to be oversimplified because the law interacts with all this to create more complex scenarios. Please read this:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.15271289
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
June 18, 2016, 08:18:22 PM
#84
Bag hold + Lie your ass off and play games and cash out is the motive / agenda.
That's what the ETH supporters are currently doing.

After the hard fork, they all have to work longer as their $50 million will be lost back to the DAO. Let wait and see.
You do realize that ETH will lose all the value that the underlying technology (the blockchain) has? If they take back those coins, they are no better than the Fed and they lose decentralization and immutability. This suggestion is horrible. Nobody should have any right nor power to take anyone's coins in a decentralized system regardless of whether they are legit, stolen or whatever.

Correct. After this HF you must call it VBCoin, not ETH.

If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.

Satoshi had a term for that, he called it attacking the network:

As long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to attack the network ...
  - Satoshi Nakamoto (bitcoin.pdf)

So, no, there has been no "hack" or "attack" so far, but Vitalik, Tual, and their cronies are working on one.

Soft forks are 51% attacks. At best, when done for relatively-benign upgrade purposes, they demonstrate a vulnerability of the network and should still raise some level of concern that the developers and miners are able to conspire to pull off a 51% attack. When done transfer control over coins, that is outright theft.
member
Activity: 93
Merit: 10
June 18, 2016, 07:25:34 PM
#83


We need litecoin right next to bitcoin both enjoying the popcorn lol
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1034
June 18, 2016, 07:05:19 PM
#82
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1072
Crypto is the separation of Power and State.
June 18, 2016, 06:58:36 PM
#81
One may not hack that which has never been secured.

"We must not forget that it is not our [computing scientists'] business to make programs, it is our business to design classes of computations that will display a desired behaviour."

-Edsger Dijkstra, The Humble Programmer, 1972
sr. member
Activity: 336
Merit: 265
June 18, 2016, 06:53:40 PM
#80

I haven't studied the specific vulnerability in this case[1], but I think it has to do with the contract code doing mutability aliasing on global state. So this is an issue of synchronizing mutability aliasing.

For example, imagine if some intended to be atomic operation[1] of a check for sending of ETH out of the contract had not set a global count of sent before some recursion which enabled sending more ETH out, thus exceeding the threshold.

So the Reddit post seems to be somewhat clueless about the actual issue. Functional programming and static typing is orthogonal to the issue of dealing with global state and mutability aliasing. I had just finished analyzing this issue at the Rust-lang forum and in my private discussion with keane recently. Although Rust can statically check mutability aliasing, this is restricted to disjoint data structures. We concluded that some semantics can't be modelled with a static checker. Mutability aliasing is thorny issue and I am not familiar enough with Coq to know if it can model it. I would need to really dig into the details of this and study it before I can comment with high degree of confidence.

[1]http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/18/analysis-of-the-dao-exploit/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHcLKrkwPLQ#t=730
https://github.com/LeastAuthority/ethereum-analyses/blob/master/GasEcon.md#case-study-the-crowfunding-contract-example
https://blog.ethereum.org/2016/06/19/thinking-smart-contract-security/
http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/06/16/scanning-live-ethereum-contracts-for-bugs/#what-about-the-recursive-race-problem-in-thedao
full member
Activity: 203
Merit: 100
★CryptoGamesFX.com★
June 18, 2016, 04:44:32 PM
#79
Bag hold + Lie your ass off and play games and cash out is the motive / agenda.
That's what the ETH supporters are currently doing.

After the hard fork, they all have to work longer as their $50 million will be lost back to the DAO. Let wait and see.
You do realize that ETH will lose all the value that the underlying technology (the blockchain) has? If they take back those coins, they are no better than the Fed and they lose decentralization and immutability. This suggestion is horrible. Nobody should have any right nor power to take anyone's coins in a decentralized system regardless of whether they are legit, stolen or whatever.

Correct. After this HF you must call it VBCoin, not ETH.

If 51% of the miners decide to fork, I think I will follow the majority and support the fork to get back the money from the attacker.
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1034
June 18, 2016, 04:28:27 PM
#78
Bitcoin survived well from previous problems and correction hard forks. So did the Monero. I think Etheruem will also survive.
Stop posting nonsense and read the thread. fluffypony has already explained why the situation with Bitcoin can not be compared to this one. Bitcoin was broken at the protocol level and a fix was applied. ETH is not broken at the protocol level. Reverting anything means that they are rewriting history and that the blockchain is not immutable, nor decentralized. I can't say anything about Monero as I'm not familiar with their situation (past).

Exactly, this is quite the predicament for Ethereum. If they do nothing about the event that has taken place, they have just forfeited a very, very significant amount of ether to a 'theft'. If they do roll it back via a fork, they disprove any value Ethereum was alleged to have.
hv_
legendary
Activity: 2506
Merit: 1055
Clean Code and Scale
June 18, 2016, 04:25:04 PM
#77
Bag hold + Lie your ass off and play games and cash out is the motive / agenda.
That's what the ETH supporters are currently doing.

After the hard fork, they all have to work longer as their $50 million will be lost back to the DAO. Let wait and see.
You do realize that ETH will lose all the value that the underlying technology (the blockchain) has? If they take back those coins, they are no better than the Fed and they lose decentralization and immutability. This suggestion is horrible. Nobody should have any right nor power to take anyone's coins in a decentralized system regardless of whether they are legit, stolen or whatever.

Correct. After this HF you must call it VBCoin, not ETH.
legendary
Activity: 2674
Merit: 2965
Terminated.
June 18, 2016, 04:18:47 PM
#76
Bag hold + Lie your ass off and play games and cash out is the motive / agenda.
That's what the ETH supporters are currently doing.

After the hard fork, they all have to work longer as their $50 million will be lost back to the DAO. Let wait and see.
You do realize that ETH will lose all the value that the underlying technology (the blockchain) has? If they take back those coins, they are no better than the Fed and they lose decentralization and immutability. This suggestion is horrible. Nobody should have any right nor power to take anyone's coins in a decentralized system regardless of whether they are legit, stolen or whatever.
full member
Activity: 309
Merit: 118
June 18, 2016, 04:04:59 PM
#75

If it's down to 500 devs then look for the one suddenly taken early retirement.

Multiple will be taking early retirement after this is over , and even if its just one , what are you or any court going to do ? All circumstantial.

After the hard fork, they all have to work longer as their $50 million will be lost back to the DAO. Let wait and see.
legendary
Activity: 994
Merit: 1034
June 18, 2016, 03:34:15 PM
#74

If it's down to 500 devs then look for the one suddenly taken early retirement.

Multiple will be taking early retirement after this is over , and even if its just one , what are you or any court going to do ? All circumstantial.
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