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Topic: Theymos: What the fuck is up with BFL and TradeFortress? - page 6. (Read 14360 times)

legendary
Activity: 1596
Merit: 1012
Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.
Stick with me here.  Do you consider criticizing a handgun for not having a safety & shipping with a loaded clip a Luddite attack?  After all, releasing the safety takes time before the gun could be fired, making it a less powerful as tool?  Do you seriously feel that any critique of technology based on its possible misuse is invalid?  Even when the likelihood of such misuse is demonstrably ... well jeesh, endemic to everyone in TF's little troll  Huh Cheesy
You're comparing apples to oranges. To make your analogy work, he'd have to be tricking people into shooting each other with that handgun rather than criticizing it.

A roughly comparable situation would be if when you made a transfer of coins in Bitcoin the transaction contained your private key in plain-text by default - and you had to have access to closed-source source-code to change the settings to not broadcast it.  In my view that's how bad an idea valuing, by default, all debt equally (at a non-zero value) is.  The problem isn't that trust CAN be used to provide liquidity - it's that it does so by default.

Take a step back from the TF situation and consider what will happen when (and it WILL happen at some point) a gateway defaults.  Is it really desirable that whoever happens to be around gets to shift all their debt from it to whoever happens to be offline (assuming the system gains enough traction that there are actually a signficiant number of users trusting multiple gateways)?  Exposure to that kind of risk needs to be opted into by users (by them actively setting their trusted counterparties as exchangable) not something they have forced on them without warning the moment they trust more than one target.
You're totally off the topic here. This isn't about microscopic design features of Ripple. He didn't criticize a design feature, make points for and against it, and convince people that the design has a defect that should be changed. He devised a scheme to exploit what he thinks is a defect that hurt real people. (And, by the way, rational people are having that rational argument elsewhere. We're already talking about different design changes to reduce this risk.)

hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
Two people reply to me but neither actually addresses the argument I was making at all. You're welcome to make 800 different arguments, but it gets really tedious when you keep switching to another argument you don't actually believe every time I address the ones you made. Does anyone want to actually respond to this argument:

Quote
It's roughly comparable to proving that Bitcoin is broken by starting an exchange or web-based wallet and then running off with the money or tricking people into deleting their wallet files. It's a Luddite attack on Bitcoin, Ripple, and technology in general -- an attempt to prove that people are too stupid to have powerful tools.

Well the direct answer to the 'argument' you're making is that it's NOT roughly comparable.  To address it in any more depth would be giving credibility to the strawman you constructed.

A roughly comparable situation would be if when you made a transfer of coins in Bitcoin the transaction contained your private key in plain-text by default - and you had to have access to closed-source source-code to change the settings to not broadcast it.  In my view that's how bad an idea valuing, by default, all debt equally (at a non-zero value) is.  The problem isn't that trust CAN be used to provide liquidity - it's that it does so by default.

Take a step back from the TF situation and consider what will happen when (and it WILL happen at some point) a gateway defaults.  Is it really desirable that whoever happens to be around gets to shift all their debt from it to whoever happens to be offline (assuming the system gains enough traction that there are actually a signficiant number of users trusting multiple gateways)?  Exposure to that kind of risk needs to be opted into by users (by them actively setting their trusted counterparties as exchangable) not something they have forced on them without warning the moment they trust more than one target.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0

Calling Ripple a scam because you don't understand the how trust works is like calling SWIFT a scam because you opened a bank yesterday, convinced a bunch of other banks to trust you personally, issued a bunch of wire transfers to those banks, then refused to back them.

Starting a bank & joining SWIFT takes millions of dollars & a Kafkaesque legal maze to waddle through.  Issuing Ripple trust by anyone with a laptop?  Priceless.

You don't need a laptop to issue trust. Trust is between human beings. You need a laptop to enter that trust into a ledger.

I stand corrected.  You don't even need a laptop Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet

Calling Ripple a scam because you don't understand the how trust works is like calling SWIFT a scam because you opened a bank yesterday, convinced a bunch of other banks to trust you personally, issued a bunch of wire transfers to those banks, then refused to back them.

Starting a bank & joining SWIFT takes millions of dollars & a Kafkaesque legal maze to waddle through.  Issuing Ripple trust by anyone with a laptop?  Priceless.

You don't need a laptop to issue trust. Trust is between human beings. You need a laptop to enter that trust into a ledger.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0

Calling Ripple a scam because you don't understand the how trust works is like calling SWIFT a scam because you opened a bank yesterday, convinced a bunch of other banks to trust you personally, issued a bunch of wire transfers to those banks, then refused to back them.

Starting a bank & joining SWIFT takes millions of dollars & a Kafkaesque legal maze to waddle through.  Issuing Ripple trust by anyone with a laptop?  Priceless.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
I forget. How much are we paying to use this forum?


Well, I paid over six thousand dollars. And I don't get shit.

No, you paid 50 BTC. Leave the dollars out of it, ok?
Maybe he used Ripple
legendary
Activity: 1358
Merit: 1002
I forget. How much are we paying to use this forum?


Well, I paid over six thousand dollars. And I don't get shit.

No, you paid 50 BTC. Leave the dollars out of it, ok?
Oh, and btw, did anyone promised you anything in exchange for those 50 BTC you paid and didn't deliver on the promise?
vip
Activity: 812
Merit: 1000
13
I forget. How much are we paying to use this forum?


Well, I paid over six thousand dollars. And I don't get shit.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
Two people reply to me but neither actually addresses the argument I was making at all. You're welcome to make 800 different arguments, but it gets really tedious when you keep switching to another argument you don't actually believe every time I address the ones you made. Does anyone want to actually respond to this argument:

Quote
It's roughly comparable to proving that Bitcoin is broken by starting an exchange or web-based wallet and then running off with the money or tricking people into deleting their wallet files. It's a Luddite attack on Bitcoin, Ripple, and technology in general -- an attempt to prove that people are too stupid to have powerful tools.

HI JK,
This "Luddite Attack" is not quite as warrantless as your wording makes it appear.  After all, what's being discussed *is exactly how fit* a particular technology is for use as currency.  If i understand TF, his opinion is: It isn't.
Stick with me here.  Do you consider criticizing a handgun for not having a safety & shipping with a loaded clip a Luddite attack?  After all, releasing the safety takes time before the gun could be fired, making it a less powerful as tool?  Do you seriously feel that any critique of technology based on its possible misuse is invalid?  Even when the likelihood of such misuse is demonstrably ... well jeesh, endemic to everyone in TF's little troll  Huh Cheesy
newbie
Activity: 8
Merit: 0
Practically a trusted node should be any node where you can spend your currency for anything equally valued. This would be any trustworthy store or business that guarantees they accept the relevant currency through Ripple. Essentially, what you are then doing by trusting them, is investing in them with your trust granting them a possible debt (in case they indirectly spend the trust trough other paths) for future services. Anyone who is giving you money through Ripple should NEVER be trusted, with the exception of established gateways for physical currencies. When working with local currencies, you should ONLY trust those who can return you services for said currency, and preferably only for the amount that you expect to spend there in a reasonable future timespan.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
It is not the exact same thing as selling a gox code (which you can't generate anymore). Your loss is limited to your gox balance. In Ripple, you can lose more than your gox balance.

That doesn't make any sense at all. You can't lose more than your balance because your balance is a balance of how much trust you've issued to people selling MtGox USD. If you're claiming that people could have been holding MtGox USD IOUs at the time MtGox is taken down, then there is absolutely no difference between that and holding a balance in MtGox (in fact, it is a balance in MtGox-- a Ripple IOU balance).

Back to the point, don't issue trust for an institution-relative currency (MtGox USD) that you don't want to trust. Don't use a payment transactions network (Ripple) that you don't want to trust.

Calling Ripple a scam because you don't understand the how trust works is like calling SWIFT a scam because you opened a bank yesterday, convinced a bunch of other banks to trust you personally, issued a bunch of wire transfers to those banks, then refused to back them. If I end up using Ripple, I'll be very careful who I extend trust to and all you've done here is show that no one should trust you for anything other than direct XRP exchanges (which carry no exchange risk for the receiving party).
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
That is how it works. You don't need to be a gateway to issue IOUs for starters, and if Mt Gox is offline IOU can still be traded along paths.

If MtGox is offline, why would anyone on the network *accept* a MtGox USD IOU in the first place?
Because the Ripple client automatically does it for them if their trust line is not maxed out?

That's what I've being saying for the past N posts.

  • The limit of what you're willing to hold in your Ripple balance is your trust limit.
  • If mtgox is not operating fractionally, they must have set aside funds to back all the issued IOUs.
  • If someone accepts MtGox USD IOUs, they are accepting the risk that MtGox could go down, be seized, DDoSed, etc etc etc. Exact same thing as selling a MtGox code.

Bottom line: Don't trade for things you don't trust.

It is not the exact same thing as selling a gox code (which you can't generate anymore). Your loss is limited to your gox balance. In Ripple, you can lose more than your gox balance.

You can take steps to prevent that (for example, somehow getting access to the closed source client and not making you a liquidity provider), but the fact is that this can happen means it's a flaw - that they can't fix without ruining ripple.

ITT: people not understanding simple concepts yet thinking they do
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
That is how it works. You don't need to be a gateway to issue IOUs for starters, and if Mt Gox is offline IOU can still be traded along paths.

If MtGox is offline, why would anyone on the network *accept* a MtGox USD IOU in the first place?
Because the Ripple client automatically does it for them if their trust line is not maxed out?

That's what I've being saying for the past N posts.

  • The limit of what you're willing to hold in your Ripple balance is your trust limit.
  • If mtgox is not operating fractionally, they must have set aside funds to back all the issued IOUs.
  • If someone accepts MtGox USD IOUs, they are accepting the risk that MtGox could go down, be seized, DDoSed, etc etc etc. Exact same thing as selling a MtGox code.

Bottom line: Don't trade for things you don't trust.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
That is how it works. You don't need to be a gateway to issue IOUs for starters, and if Mt Gox is offline IOU can still be traded along paths.

If MtGox is offline, why would anyone on the network *accept* a MtGox USD IOU in the first place?
Because the Ripple client automatically does it for them if their trust line is not maxed out?

That's what I've being saying for the past N posts.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
That is how it works. You don't need to be a gateway to issue IOUs for starters, and if Mt Gox is offline IOU can still be traded along paths.

If MtGox is offline, why would anyone on the network *accept* a MtGox USD IOU in the first place? There is a user on the other side of that trade who has to basically say "Ripple network, this is what I want!". If MtGox was down/hacked/seized, why would anyone tell the network "I want MtGox USD!" in the first place?
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
You trust Instawallet for up to 100 BTC.

If you're willing to trust Instawallet for 100 BTC, there is something fundamentally wrong with your idea of bitcoin security.
You do know I'm using it as an example, right? Replace Instawallet with Mt Gox. If Mt Gox gets hacked, you only lose the amount you had there. If you're using Ripple and Mt Gox gets hacked, then you lose as much as you have trusted it.

That's not how Ripple works as far as I can tell. If MtGox were hacked, seized or went offline, it seems it would make it impossible for them to function as a gateway, hence no transactions could take place for MtGox USD.

It seems the only thing you're able to prove so far is not to trust you on Ripple.

That is how it works. You don't need to be a gateway to issue IOUs for starters, and if Mt Gox is offline IOU can still be traded along paths.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
You trust Instawallet for up to 100 BTC.

If you're willing to trust Instawallet for 100 BTC, there is something fundamentally wrong with your idea of bitcoin security.
You do know I'm using it as an example, right? Replace Instawallet with Mt Gox. If Mt Gox gets hacked, you only lose the amount you had there. If you're using Ripple and Mt Gox gets hacked, then you lose as much as you have trusted it.

That's not how Ripple works as far as I can tell. If MtGox were hacked, seized or went offline, it seems it would make it impossible for them to function as a gateway, hence no transactions could take place for MtGox USD.

It seems the only thing you're able to prove so far is not to trust you on Ripple.
vip
Activity: 1316
Merit: 1043
👻
You trust Instawallet for up to 100 BTC.

If you're willing to trust Instawallet for 100 BTC, there is something fundamentally wrong with your idea of bitcoin security.
You do know I'm using it as an example, right? Replace Instawallet with Mt Gox. If Mt Gox gets hacked, you only lose the amount you had there. If you're using Ripple and Mt Gox gets hacked, then you lose as much as you have trusted it.
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
Hero VIP ultra official trusted super staff puppet
You trust Instawallet for up to 100 BTC.

If you're willing to trust Instawallet for 100 BTC, there is something fundamentally wrong with your idea of bitcoin security.
full member
Activity: 126
Merit: 100
Capitalism is the crisis.
This user is currently being ignored.
Yeaahp... yup.. hmm? HMMM?! SPEAK UP I CAN'T HEAR YOU.

Tradefortress is as rad as fook in my book.
"...so theres this giant flaw... allow me to demonstrate!" -my version of TF.
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