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Topic: This is bad: Russia 'abducts' Estonian officer after Obama says US will defend.. - page 3. (Read 4587 times)

legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
1)Russia didn't invade Crimea. Crimean people did not want to live together with the Nazis from Kiev and asked Russia rejoin. Do you feel the difference?

2)There are no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine. If there were Russian troops, militia would have won long ago.

Yeah, you keep telling yourself that, while the rest of the world disagrees with you.


Crimea was a part of the Russian SFSR until 1954, when Nikita Khrushchev illegally annexed it to Ukraine. In 2014, the vast majority of the Crimean people rebelled against the Kiev rule, and seceded from Ukraine. A few days after the declaration of independence, the Crimean people voted to join the Russian Federation. Their request was approved by Russia. Where is the invasion here?

The invasion was when a bunch of Russian troops in unmarked military uniforms invaded Crimea, took over the airport, and "kept the peace" BEFORE Crimea had the vote and the "majority" rebelled against the Kiev rule. Care to tell me who in Crimea invited those unmarked Russian troops who all wore balaclavas to keep from being identified?
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
No Russian national asset has been stolen that I know of. What are you talking about? Russia sells natural gas to the West, but that isn't stolen, and Russians are happy to get the cash.

Western puppets such as Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Platon Lebedev, Mikhail Brudno, Vasily Shakhnovsky and Leonid Nevzlin fraudulently seized Russian national assets including oil and gas fields using a variety of means (including murder and intimidation of government officials)...

They all have Russian names though... Let's see:

Mikhail Khodorkovsky - Born in Moscow, Russia, became deputy head of Komsomol (the Communist Youth League), used his connections within the communist structures to gain a foothold in the developing free market, and used the help of some powerful people to start his business activities under the cover of Komsomol. Sounds like an old Soviet Russian stealing your resources from within. Why would he be called a western puppet? "In February 2003, at a televised meeting at the Kremlin, Khodorkovsky argued with Putin about corruption. He implied that major government officials were accepting millions in bribes." Ah! There it is!

Platon Lebedev - Born in Moscow, Russia, is best known as a close associate of Mikhail Khodorkovsky. Is he a "western puppet" for similar reasons? "He was subsequently charged with embezzlement and money laundering in 2009, and pled not guilty to the charges. There has been speculation that these charges were politically motivated.  Lebedev and Khodorkovsky were named prisoners of conscience by Amnesty International" and says "he would fight for the freedom of people he considered political prisoners." So, all around great Russian while stealing the oil, but a western puppet bastard if he goes against the rest of the Russian oligarchs.

Mikhail Brudno - Too little info on this guy... My guess is also a Soviet oligarch that stole Russian resources from within government.

Vasily Shakhnovsky - Same as above, too little info, but also has ties to the Yukos debacle. Which, for the uninformed, "After Khodorkovsky (Owner of Yukos) became an advocate of democratization, international co-operation and Russian reform, in October 2003 Khodorkovsky was arrested, and the company was forcibly broken up for alleged unpaid taxes shortly after and declared bankrupt in August 2006. Courts in several countries later ruled that the real intent was to destroy Yukos and obtain its assets for the government, and act politically against Khodorkovsky." Or, you know, private party buys oil fields and creates a highly successful oil company, government that is still full of old Soviets and KGB decide they want in on that, trump up false charges, and steal that wealth by nationalizing the company, with new oligarchs simply getting jealous and stealing from the old oligarchs (btw, it's this what both George Orwell and Ayn Rand warned against, and what bitcoin as a political system is designed to fight?). Oh, and what do you know, "In 2014 the largest arbitration award in history, $50 billion (€37,2 billion), was won by Yukos' former owners against Russia."

Leonid Nevzlin - Born in Moscow, Russia, participated in the Russian presidential election of 1996 helping to reelect Boris Yeltsin, but is otherwise a plain business man and (OH NOES!) a jew who dared to suggest that jews should have freedoms in Russia. So, another Russian oligarch who came up through the ranks of Russian politics, but became a "western puppet" once the new oligarchs wanted to steal from the old oligarchs. Except he's extra "western" because he's a jew. Despite being born, raised, and taught in Russia, and working with the Russian government.  Roll Eyes

In short, Russian oligarchs, all born and raised in Russia (Soviet Russia no less), many of whom were involved in government or rose up through its ranks, stole from their own people to build a highly successful private oil company, but once they started making real money, and worse, suggesting that Russians should have freedoms and good relations with the rest of the world, the old government oligarchs got jealous and took all their wealth by nationalizing their company, and, of course, calling them "western puppets," because, being born, raised, educated, and members of Soviet Russian government is what makes one a "western puppet."

... and later sold them to bankers and investors from the EU and the US.

Yeah, there's no "later sold them." They were nationalized by Russian government and are all now owned by Russian government owned companies like Gasprom.

P.S. Thank you for the list of names. Researching and reading about this part of Russia's more recent history has been highly enlightening.
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Both #Estonian and #Russian border guards signed an act after #EstoniaKidnap confirming it took place IN #Estonia.

legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
Yeah, I kinda had to comment on this one too. Did you forget Crimea and Eastern Ukraine already?

Crimea was a part of the Russian SFSR until 1954, when Nikita Khrushchev illegally annexed it to Ukraine. In 2014, the vast majority of the Crimean people rebelled against the Kiev rule, and seceded from Ukraine. A few days after the declaration of independence, the Crimean people voted to join the Russian Federation. Their request was approved by Russia. Where is the invasion here?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1000
I wonder who is the most dangerous to world peace, IS or Russia. To all countries in Eastern Europe, this is Russia.

The most dangerous country to world peace is the United States of America. IS has invaded 2 countries in the last 50 years. Russia has invaded none.

Yeah, I kinda had to comment on this one too. Did you forget Crimea and Eastern Ukraine already?
1)Russia didn't invade Crimea. Crimean people did not want to live together with the Nazis from Kiev and asked Russia rejoin. Do you feel the difference?

2)There are no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine. If there were Russian troops, militia would have won long ago.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
Why this war begans? Because Kiev was banned russian language all over Ukraina. But in east Ukraina many people even don't know ukrainian language!


This is not true. Many people in Kiev speak only Russian and do not understand Ukrainian very well. This is something maybe some person in Kiev said, who had no power to actually change anything at all, and that Russia spread big propaganda about to try to scare Eastern Ukraine. It would be silly for Kiev to ban all Russian language when so much of Kiev and Ukraine speaks it. Besides, it is not the language that Ukraine is worried about, it is Russia and Putin.

Democracy is only one of the forms of governing, and in its current form is a pretty recent invention.


What? Its current form is similar to what Greeks experimented with thousands of years ago, and almost exactly what Romans had thousands of years ago (Senate, parliament, etc).


I don't care about the press freedom as long as the people there are able to lead a normal family life. In 75% of the world nations, there is no press freedom, so Belarus is nothing special. IMO, the Belorussians are better off being ruled by a dictator who cares for his own people, rather than being ruled by some oligarch or a western puppet.

So, DPRK (North Korea) is perfectly ok then?
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
Police raid homes of Latvians connected to pro Russia rebels in Ukraine, weapons found


A car is seen in Latvia flying the flag of the Donetsk People’s Republic


 Security police have raided several homes in Latvia in connection with residents who may be fighting with pro Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine.

Weapons and ammunition were found in some of the homes, LETA reports.

Criminal cases have been launched against the people for committing acts of terrorism and the purchase, storage and carrying of illegal weapons, security police say.

It follows after videos emerged earlier this month showing interviews with Latvians fighting for separatists in the region. Two of the men in the video claim to be from Ludza, Latvia. Police say the men have connection with the National Bolshevik Movement.

Meanwhile, Latvia's Security Police earlier this month began a criminal process against three people from Latvia who have publicly made appeals for others to join the fighting in Ukraine.

The Baltic Times http://tinyurl.com/mbxl7kp
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1035
I wonder who is the most dangerous to world peace, IS or Russia. To all countries in Eastern Europe, this is Russia.

The most dangerous country to world peace is the United States of America. IS has invaded 2 countries in the last 50 years. Russia has invaded none.

Yeah, I kinda had to comment on this one too. Did you forget Crimea and Eastern Ukraine already?
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
No Russian national asset has been stolen that I know of. What are you talking about? Russia sells natural gas to the West, but that isn't stolen, and Russians are happy to get the cash.

Western puppets such as Mikhail Khodorkovsky, Platon Lebedev, Mikhail Brudno, Vasily Shakhnovsky and Leonid Nevzlin fraudulently seized Russian national assets including oil and gas fields using a variety of means (including murder and intimidation of government officials) and later sold them to bankers and investors from the EU and the US.
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
Hmm... I see Pagan is diversifying into other threads...
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014

No Russian national asset has been stolen that I know of. What are you talking about? Russia sells natural gas to the West, but that isn't stolen, and Russians are happy to get the cash.


You are mixing up the nation as such, and the 0.001% that for example bought the gas fields during the 90s for something like $1 per square kilometer. That was a nation-wide defrauding, not just in oil and gas, but in every branch of industry in Russia. Moreover, large scale tax avoidance is also widespread (Yukos case and Khodorkovskij). So that 0.001% of "Russians" (who are mostly Jewish) are happy to get the cash. Russians are getting just scraps. Putin started doing something about it, making more of the natural resource money flowing into the state coffers, which, among other things, made him popular in Russia and not popular in the West (remember the recent EU ruling where Russia as a state is supposed to return 50 billion € that were seized from Yukos for tax fraud back to the handful of the fraudsters and the thieves.)

And, as Balthazar mentioned, you don't need to go far for real freedom limitations. Just look at Latvia, where you have a class of citizens, who are called non-citizens (287.000 of them, dubbed as "ne-gry", "niggers"). They live and work there, amny were born there, but have no access to any "democratic" mechanisms, no voting rights, etc.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CD%E5%E3%F0%E0%E6%E4%E0%ED%E5_%28%CB%E0%F2%E2%E8%FF%29

Can you live a normal life, a happy life, when you can't decide your children's education, how many hours you work, what doctor you'll see if you're ill? A happy life is having choices.

Or, at least the illusion of having choices. And example of Norway and doctors. You cannot go to a specialist before you visit and pay to a local doctor and survive several months of waiting in lines. You have a choice of going to a specialist directly with less waiting, but then you have to pay the 50x price.  And even then not all specialists are allowed to accept you like that, so the particular doctor you might wish to visit quickly is unreachable, because the seeming choice is of options is an illusion and you anyway have to endure the system.

By the way, if people are happy to have a benevolent dictator for a ruler, and a functioning society and economy (and judging by conversations with a few Belorussians that I had, they do), who are we to impose on them a form of government that will destroy their country, but will give them the illusion of freedom? How are we to do that? With democratic bombings and befreeing scorched earth as NATO usually does?
legendary
Activity: 3066
Merit: 1047
Your country may be your worst enemy
Freedom of press makes educated people. Freedom of enterprise makes people proud of themselves when they are successful. Free elections make responsible citizens. Etc...

There are monkeys in zoos which are perfectly happy when they are well fed, but human beings deserve more than that. Monkeys too, when I think of it.

Can you live a normal life, a happy life, when you can't decide your children's education, how many hours you work, what doctor you'll see if you're ill? A happy life is having choices.

Quote
The Western rulers are just angry because they can't steal the national assets of Belarus, unlike what they did in Russia and Ukraine.

No Russian national asset has been stolen that I know of. What are you talking about? Russia sells natural gas to the West, but that isn't stolen, and Russians are happy to get the cash.
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 1359
Lukashenko is a honest person, at least... Unlike Obama, Cameron and other 99.99% of "democratic" politicians hypocrites, he officially described himself as "last dictator in the europe" and says that he's proud to be dictator. Despite the fact that it's not true and the most of politicians from the Baltic states are much worse in terms of human rights suppression. They're just too cowardly to admit the real nature of own regimes.
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
I know Russia is a trans-continental nation, I've flown over it quite a few times. I also note you conveniently forgot to reply to the main part of my last post, but that's all right, we can talk about Belarus is that's people want here.

How about press freedom? Is it possible to print in a newspaper that the president of Belarus has a tiny, tiny willy like Putin? (I'm only joking, don't get angry). How about economic freedom? How easy is it to start a business in Belarus?

Any fair elections there? What are the democratic institutions in Belarus? How many political parties in the opposition?

Yes, please. Let's talk about freedom in Belarus!

I don't care about the press freedom as long as the people there are able to lead a normal family life. In 75% of the world nations, there is no press freedom, so Belarus is nothing special. IMO, the Belorussians are better off being ruled by a dictator who cares for his own people, rather than being ruled by some oligarch or a western puppet.

Lukashenko averted a catastrophe during the late 1990s and early 2000s. The ordinary Belorussians will never forget that. The Western rulers are just angry because they can't steal the national assets of Belarus, unlike what they did in Russia and Ukraine.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1000
I know Russia is a trans-continental nation, I've flown over it quite a few times. I also note you conveniently forgot to reply to the main part of my last post, but that's all right, we can talk about Belarus is that's people want here.

How about press freedom? Is it possible to print in a newspaper that the president of Belarus has a tiny, tiny willy like Putin? (I'm only joking, don't get angry). How about economic freedom? How easy is it to start a business in Belarus?

Any fair elections there? What are the democratic institutions in Belarus? How many political parties in the opposition?

Yes, please. Let's talk about freedom in Belarus!
1)nope, you can not slander the President
2)easy
3)majority Belorussians support president...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_Belarus
sr. member
Activity: 252
Merit: 250

ruSSia against the Baltic States-

"If even several years ago one could see Russia's will to distance itself from the Soviet regime, the recent events [...] clearly indicate not just legal, but also ideological identity between #Russia and the #USSR."
The General Prosecutor's Office of Lithuania has informed that the Russian law enforcement authorities are trying to reopen criminal proceedings against Lithuanian nationals who refused to serve in the Soviet army following the country's 1990 secession from the USSR.

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/defence/lithuanian-defence-minister-we-are-doing-all-to-protect-our-citizens-against-prosecution-in-russia.d?id=65786158


Attempts by Russia's law enforcement agencies to re-open criminal prosecution against Lithuanian nationals who avoided military service in the Soviet army in 1990-1991 has no legal basis, says international law expert Erika Leonaitė.
Moreover, she says, such a move reaffirms that Russia is the successor state of the USSR, responsible for crimes inflicted on the Baltic States.

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/legal-expert-russia-indicates-that-it-questions-lithuanias-independence.d?id=65801104
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1014
long live russia long live putin the threat to world peace is israel and the western governments who do its bidding
legendary
Activity: 1680
Merit: 1014
Democracy is only one of the forms of governing, and in its current form is a pretty recent invention.
Which form you mean? Cheesy Any modern liberal democracy it's still a feudal regime under liberal guise. Feudal democracy was invented 8 centuries ago, look at Republic of Novgorod.

I meant the indirect "let's pretend you have a choice" variety.
Choose between the "2+2" party and the "2*2" party.
In Novgorod republic you had a least some influence on the choices taken, provided your the right kind of man.
legendary
Activity: 3108
Merit: 1359
Democracy is only one of the forms of governing, and in its current form is a pretty recent invention.
Which form you mean? Cheesy Any modern liberal democracy it's still a feudal regime but under liberal guise. Feudal democracy was invented 8 centuries ago, look at Republic of Novgorod for example.
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