This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism - page 11.

FreedomEqualsRiches

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Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 05:20:51 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:12:44 PM

LOL. OK, Encourage, through use of force.

Tsk... no need for euphemisms. We're intelligent adults. You can use the words you mean. Coerce, extort, compel. All will work equally well.

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:17:15 PM

You are a 2A guy, you know that force exists and is a major part of how the world works. Do you not see that many would use force as well?

Yes, many would. And if that force was used in aggression, those people would rightfully be considered criminals.

Some would consider it a criminal offence to violate IP rights, others would consider it a criminal offence to enforce IP rights. Can both of these schools of thought be reconciled in the same society? I say "Yes".

myrkul

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FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:12:44 PM

LOL. OK, Encourage, through use of force.

Tsk... no need for euphemisms. We're intelligent adults. You can use the words you mean. Coerce, extort, compel. All will work equally well.

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:17:15 PM

You are a 2A guy, you know that force exists and is a major part of how the world works. Do you not see that many would use force as well?

Yes, many would. And if that force was used in aggression, those people would rightfully be considered criminals.

FreedomEqualsRiches

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Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 05:10:36 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:04:58 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 05:00:24 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

Then it behooves you to make your profit as quickly as possible, for your market share will not stay 100% for long.

So is it immoral of me to try to maximize my profits by extorting folk who use MY idea to pay me a premium of some sort? Without MY idea, they would be nowhere. Mine is Mine.

Quote

ex·tort
/ikˈstôrt/
Verb
Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means.

Quote

No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property.

What do you think?

You are a 2A guy, you know that force exists and is a major part of how the world works. Do you not see that many would use force as well? I think that you deny the human factor, the perversity of things. If an angelic whore trespasses on my land, who is the initiator of force?

FreedomEqualsRiches

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Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 05:10:36 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:04:58 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 05:00:24 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

Then it behooves you to make your profit as quickly as possible, for your market share will not stay 100% for long.

So is it immoral of me to try to maximize my profits by extorting folk who use MY idea to pay me a premium of some sort? Without MY idea, they would be nowhere. Mine is Mine.

Quote

ex·tort
/ikˈstôrt/
Verb
Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means.

Quote

No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property.

What do you think?

LOL. OK, Encourage, through use of force.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: kokjo on May 11, 2013, 05:07:31 PM

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 05:03:20 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

But what of everyone you've copied through research? Are they not owed, as well? If we're assuming IP is a thing, we also have to take into consideration the IP being stolen through any and all ideas, which are always based upon previous ideas.

at some point it becomes too expensive to defend your IP, and thus you stop defending it.

cost-benefit 101: is it beneficial to attack someone who have not attacked you first? yes, sometimes!

(and this is the point that myrkul fail to see...)

So, you would shoot at AnCaps before being shot at?

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:04:58 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 05:00:24 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

Then it behooves you to make your profit as quickly as possible, for your market share will not stay 100% for long.

So is it immoral of me to try to maximize my profits by extorting folk who use MY idea to pay me a premium of some sort? Without MY idea, they would be nowhere. Mine is Mine.

Quote

ex·tort
/ikˈstôrt/
Verb
Obtain (something) by force, threats, or other unfair means.

Quote

No person has the right to initiate force, threat of force, or fraud against another person or their property.

What do you think?

Mike Christ

legendary

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1003

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 05:06:16 PM

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 05:03:20 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

But what of everyone you've copied through research? Are they not owed, as well? If we're assuming IP is a thing, we also have to take into consideration the IP being stolen through any and all ideas, which are always based upon previous ideas.

If I make cash on their ideas, they can ask or sue me as they see fit.

Then you'd never make profit. Now if someone takes your idea that you've yet to recoup your losses on, you can choose to sue him. In the end, nobody's going anywhere, and the original patent holders make a killing. It favors "firsties" and discourages innovation.

Quote from: kokjo on May 11, 2013, 05:07:31 PM

at some point it becomes too expensive to defend your IP, and thus you stop defending it.

cost-benefit 101: is it beneficial to attack someone who have not attacked you first? yes, sometimes!

(and this is the point that myrkul fail to see...)

Tell that to the patent trolls who do nothing but make insane profits from suing people who violate their IP. There was a case recently which a company sued almost every online retailer for using the idea of an online shopping cart. It wasn't until Newegg stood up to them that they finally knocked them down a peg and won their case.

kokjo

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Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 05:03:20 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

But what of everyone you've copied through research? Are they not owed, as well? If we're assuming IP is a thing, we also have to take into consideration the IP being stolen through any and all ideas, which are always based upon previous ideas.

at some point it becomes too expensive to defend your IP, and thus you stop defending it.

cost-benefit 101: is it beneficial to attack someone who have not attacked you first? yes, sometimes!

(and this is the point that myrkul fail to see...)

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 05:03:20 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

But what of everyone you've copied through research? Are they not owed, as well? If we're assuming IP is a thing, we also have to take into consideration the IP being stolen through any and all ideas, which are always based upon previous ideas.

If I make cash on their ideas, they can ask or sue me as they see fit.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 05:00:24 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

Then it behooves you to make your profit as quickly as possible, for your market share will not stay 100% for long.

So is it immoral of me to try to maximize my profits by extorting folk who use MY idea to pay me a premium of some sort? Without MY idea, they would be nowhere. Mine is Mine.

Mike Christ

legendary

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1003

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

But what of everyone you've copied through research? Are they not owed, as well? If we're assuming IP is a thing, we also have to take into consideration the IP being stolen through any and all ideas, which are always based upon previous ideas.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

Then it behooves you to make your profit as quickly as possible, for your market share will not stay 100% for long.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:50:25 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:44:05 PM

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 04:37:13 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:34:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:31:49 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:27:08 PM

Can I profit from it without sharing it? If it takes millions to implement?

You're welcome to prevent your employees - contractually - from divulging trade secrets, even your customers, if you can get them to agree. You just don't have any third party enforceability.

***But that's not fair! wah!***

Anyway,
That issue is between my, my customers, and my arbitration company.

Your arbitration company would have to agree with other arbitration companies that IP is a-OK, which would imply all of society would be cool with IP. However, if your arbitration company is the only one in the biz who thinks it's right, they'll not be in business long, as the other arbitration companies will believe you and your company are making an attempt at extortion of innocent people.

So, once again, it's a fight between innovators/producers and moochers/looters.

The only question is, Which side are you on?

Both sides of this debate would consider the other to be a looter if it came down to actually implementing their policies.

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:46:15 PM

I feel that being forced to conjure my lawnmower is a violation of my rights. Scarcity is an invalid argument for private property. Whats mine is mine, whether it's scarce or plentiful.

Then it comes down to which is a greater violation, your idea being copied, or you telling millions of people what they can and cannot do with their property.

Indeed, it comes down to force, as it always does. I don't care if people copy my stuff, as long as they don't infringe on my market share, at least until I've recouped my investment, plus some profit.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:44:05 PM

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 04:37:13 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:34:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:31:49 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:27:08 PM

Can I profit from it without sharing it? If it takes millions to implement?

You're welcome to prevent your employees - contractually - from divulging trade secrets, even your customers, if you can get them to agree. You just don't have any third party enforceability.

***But that's not fair! wah!***

Anyway,
That issue is between my, my customers, and my arbitration company.

Your arbitration company would have to agree with other arbitration companies that IP is a-OK, which would imply all of society would be cool with IP. However, if your arbitration company is the only one in the biz who thinks it's right, they'll not be in business long, as the other arbitration companies will believe you and your company are making an attempt at extortion of innocent people.

So, once again, it's a fight between innovators/producers and moochers/looters.

The only question is, Which side are you on?

Both sides of this debate would consider the other to be a looter if it came down to actually implementing their policies.

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:46:15 PM

I feel that being forced to conjure my lawnmower is a violation of my rights. Scarcity is an invalid argument for private property. Whats mine is mine, whether it's scarce or plentiful.

Then it comes down to which is a greater violation, your idea being copied, or you telling millions of people what they can and cannot do with their property.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:41:55 PM

Quote from: kokjo on May 11, 2013, 04:38:42 PM

i guess it depends on what ever you see a violation of IP as a violation of property.

That would require IP to be property. Which would require it to be scarce. Which it is not. So it is not.

I feel that being forced to conjure my lawnmower is a violation of my rights. Scarcity is an invalid argument for private property. Whats mine is mine, whether it's scarce or plentiful.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 04:37:13 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:34:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:31:49 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:27:08 PM

Can I profit from it without sharing it? If it takes millions to implement?

You're welcome to prevent your employees - contractually - from divulging trade secrets, even your customers, if you can get them to agree. You just don't have any third party enforceability.

***But that's not fair! wah!***

Anyway,
That issue is between my, my customers, and my arbitration company.

Your arbitration company would have to agree with other arbitration companies that IP is a-OK, which would imply all of society would be cool with IP. However, if your arbitration company is the only one in the biz who thinks it's right, they'll not be in business long, as the other arbitration companies will believe you and your company are making an attempt at extortion of innocent people.

So, once again, it's a fight between innovators/producers and moochers/looters.

myrkul

hero member

Activity: 532

Merit: 500

FIAT LIBERTAS RVAT CAELVM

Quote from: kokjo on May 11, 2013, 04:38:42 PM

i guess it depends on what ever you see a violation of IP as a violation of property.

That would require IP to be property. Which would require it to be scarce. Which it is not. So it is not.

kokjo

legendary

Activity: 1050

Merit: 1000

You are WRONG!

Quote from: Mike Christ on May 11, 2013, 04:37:13 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:34:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:31:49 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:27:08 PM

Can I profit from it without sharing it? If it takes millions to implement?

You're welcome to prevent your employees - contractually - from divulging trade secrets, even your customers, if you can get them to agree. You just don't have any third party enforceability.

***But that's not fair! wah!***

Anyway,
That issue is between my, my customers, and my arbitration company.

Your arbitration company would have to agree with other arbitration companies that IP is a-OK, which would imply all of society would be cool with IP. However, if your arbitration company is the only one in the biz who thinks it's right, they'll not be in business long, as the other arbitration companies will believe you and your company are making an attempt at extortion of innocent people.

i guess it depends on what ever you see a violation of IP as a violation of property. Is IP violation a aggression?

Mike Christ

legendary

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1003

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:34:31 PM

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:31:49 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:27:08 PM

Can I profit from it without sharing it? If it takes millions to implement?

You're welcome to prevent your employees - contractually - from divulging trade secrets, even your customers, if you can get them to agree. You just don't have any third party enforceability.

***But that's not fair! wah!***

Anyway,
That issue is between my, my customers, and my arbitration company.

Your arbitration company would have to agree with other arbitration companies that IP is a-OK, which would imply all of society would be cool with IP. However, if your arbitration company is the only one in the biz who thinks it's right, they'll not be in business long, as the other arbitration companies will believe you and your company are making an attempt at extortion of innocent people.

FreedomEqualsRiches

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Quote from: myrkul on May 11, 2013, 04:31:49 PM

Quote from: FreedomEqualsRiches on May 11, 2013, 04:27:08 PM

Can I profit from it without sharing it? If it takes millions to implement?

You're welcome to prevent your employees - contractually - from divulging trade secrets, even your customers, if you can get them to agree. You just don't have any third party enforceability.

***But that's not fair! wah!***

Anyway,
That issue is between my, my customers, and my arbitration company.

Topic: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism - page 11. (Read 33901 times)