Those who deny that BTC will rise to seven figures: clearly explain yourselves

GogglesPisano

member

Activity: 68

Merit: 10

Quote from: GangkisKhan on July 03, 2014, 12:14:59 PM

I am quite bullish at bitcoin but not to the extreme of seven figures.

Same here, to think a single Bitcoin will be worth a million dollars is pretty ludicrous.

Even six figures is a stretch though I wouldn't rule it out. I do think five figures one day is a certainty.

gentlemand

legendary

Activity: 2604

Merit: 3056

Welt Am Draht

Seven figures sounds fun. It's, like, more than it is now.

Benjig

sr. member

Activity: 462

Merit: 250

Quote from: BITCOINDENMARK on July 03, 2014, 12:06:33 PM

Quote from: Kupsi on August 30, 2013, 03:54:12 AM

Quote from: halfawake on August 30, 2013, 03:39:36 AM

Seven figures, seriously? You're talking about one bitcoin being worth $1,000,000, really? Not even if bitcoin takes over the entire world economy will it be worth that much, see Turr Demeester's talk on the potential value of one bitcoin.

In case you don't want to watch the whole video, he crunches the numbers and calculates that each bitcoin will be worth $500,000 if it takes over the world economy. I would be seriously surprised if it does that within my lifetime, but that's likely the ceiling on the price. At least in nominal value, anyway. If it does this, but takes 50 - 100 years to do so, it may be worth that much, but not in today's dollars.

$21T - $32T in tax haven accounts alone would bring the price to $1,000,000 - $1,500,000.

http://taxjustice.blogspot.ch/2012/08/interview-our-21-32-trillion-offshore.html

Thanks for the link - VERY INTERESTING !

Yes, a seven figures price is not very far, i mean the current market cap of bitcoins is ridiculous , more than 30 people in the world has that amount or more by their selves only, Bill Gates has almost 10 times the bitcoin market cap, so we can expect a bigger raise.

GangkisKhan

full member

Activity: 141

Merit: 100

I am quite bullish at bitcoin but not to the extreme of seven figures.

BITCOINDENMARK

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: Kupsi on August 30, 2013, 03:54:12 AM

Quote from: halfawake on August 30, 2013, 03:39:36 AM

Seven figures, seriously? You're talking about one bitcoin being worth $1,000,000, really? Not even if bitcoin takes over the entire world economy will it be worth that much, see Turr Demeester's talk on the potential value of one bitcoin.

In case you don't want to watch the whole video, he crunches the numbers and calculates that each bitcoin will be worth $500,000 if it takes over the world economy. I would be seriously surprised if it does that within my lifetime, but that's likely the ceiling on the price. At least in nominal value, anyway. If it does this, but takes 50 - 100 years to do so, it may be worth that much, but not in today's dollars.

$21T - $32T in tax haven accounts alone would bring the price to $1,000,000 - $1,500,000.

http://taxjustice.blogspot.ch/2012/08/interview-our-21-32-trillion-offshore.html

Thanks for the link - VERY INTERESTING !

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3080

Quote from: xxjs on September 02, 2013, 07:41:39 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 07:01:16 PM

Quote from: xxjs on September 02, 2013, 05:42:31 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 05:16:05 PM

Quote from: xxjs on September 02, 2013, 04:29:39 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 04:12:58 PM

WRT manfred and xxjs: yes

Now that it is becoming ever more obvious that the market-price mechanism for whole swathes of our financial "system" are actually price fixes that serve to perpetuate plutocratic, corporatist oligopolies, we have to ask the most meaningful question: what is the genuine value of these currencies we measure BTC against? I'm finding the whole concept of a Bitcoin price less and less persuasive.

The price of a money type is the inverse of all other things on the market, including other moneys. Clearly bitcoin is kind of unstable in that regard, and fiat and especially USD is kind of stable, in the short term at least, so it make sense to measure bitcoin price in USD. We must not forget that fiat, especially non-USD fiat, is fluctuating, even important fiats like euro, pound sterling and yen. When we talk about a future where bitcoin makes dents into government fiat, however, we must change to pricing it in useful goods, for instance a basket of commodities or a basket of consumer goods. If it stabilizes, we don't have to worry about the value of bitcoin, just like consumers of today don't worry about the value of the dollar, only about prices measured in dollars. We are not there yet.

Ok, so you're talking about valuations of all useful economic goods and mediums of exchange in relation to each other. My point (and here it is a second time) is that the distortions being applied to all of these stated price relationships might well render them all meaningless. SO MANY yardsticks are being manipulated that it is difficult to say that any of them have much basis in reality.

The only generalisations that hold true for me right now are: commodities are being manipulated high, US dollar is manipulated high + level to enforce artificial stability, currencies of US political enemies are strategically manipulated into death throes to enforce instability, interests rates kept artificially zero-esque to keep the stock markets looking rosy. When there is no real free markets, the prices are mostly propaganda tools, and not the empirical measurements that they should be (and that people assume they are).

I mostly agree, but you cannot manipulate all things the same way simultaneously. If you manipulate the yen down, other money and japan prices go up. Many submarkets are free, even if they are skewed one way or another by some forceful trader. It is the speculator's job to see through these things, and profit on them. For instance, if you think yen is forced down and that force will end, buy yen. Same with gold. The world (the market) has not ended yet.

The "forceful traders" are the dishonest actors helping to keep the narrative broadly "correct". Any apparent natural fluctuation is simulation within an acceptable range, not the real thing at all. The whole entire financial system and it's press are basically self-perpetuating, self-reinforcing to the extent that they resemble dogs imbibing their own vomit, re-upchucking, then on to another vomit supper. Throw a bit of defecation into the analogical dinner bowl and you've got a perhaps more complete metaphor. I think must be a little too difficult a concept to swallow, but these so-called numerical relationships are rigged to express what the most significant holders of the underlying wealth wish them to. Supply and demand crept carefully out of the window like vegetarian flatulence quite some time ago. It is an illusion, a mirage of meaningfulness. Doesn't mean you can't still trade in the markets and make money, but the normalcy is/always-to-some-extent-was masking an unsustainable form of economics. This reality is why people are drawn ever closer to cryptocurrency, it's the most believable empiricism on the table at all right now.

Well, well, then, I think you should try to get yourself a show on RT. (I try to be funny here)

People like Max Keiser are not lone voices (although on mainstream TV they are). The web is full of people that would happily stake their (considerable) professional credentials on such views. I think the idea may be that if every well known talking head/pundit starts taking a Keiser style position, the panic would not be as easily managed. No-one wants to subscribe to this sort of view if it's overblown, but the facts about the extent to which financial statistics are pure fabrications are looking very unpleasant.

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: Mike Christ on September 03, 2013, 03:56:35 AM

Quote from: aenemic on September 03, 2013, 03:26:31 AM

Quote from: dave111223 on September 03, 2013, 12:44:40 AM

Quote from: crumbs on August 28, 2013, 05:51:51 PM

You understand that fiat != inflationary currency, right? Fiat can also be deflationary, if that's what you want. Most people don't.

I'd imagine if you walked the street and did a poll asking "Do you want the government to print more money?" Less than 50% would say "Yes"

I fear most people would think that would solve problems. "What? We can just print more money?"

Most people are too ignorant of economics to make an informed decision, and the tiny percentage which are given the power to make a difference know not to bite the hand that feeds. The best option is to let people figure out on their own whether they prefer an inflationary or deflationary currency, and to allow both to thrive in a market; there's no reason to force everyone to stick to one currency, controlled by government; of course it can never be deflationary, that would take all the power away from government. It's not that most people don't want a deflationary currency, it's that they're not even aware of the possibility that an alternative exists; you cannot be aware of the box you're in if you've never been outside. The idea of one currency that everyone must follow or civilization will collapse is entirely based on propaganda, and it's getting tiring.

It doesn't matter whether fiat can be inflationary or deflationary; what matters is the reason why I can't decide which currency my peers and I prefer, and why government needs to issue a currency to begin with; we've already seen a plethora of examples of private currencies being successful, and as with anything which threatens the powers that be, they're always shut down.

Oh Christ, Mike! You and your peers are free to trade in *whatever* amongst yourselves -- labels from seltzer bottles for all anyone cares! With all the revolutionary talk, i bet you still hear some government coins clinking in the dryer when U do laundry though, amirite?

You honestly don't know how a state could implement deflationary money & maintain control? The bills are printed with dates, Mike Christ, you determine the worth of the bill by factoring in the date. Just like with groceries -- full price when baked/printed, totally worthless & rotten in a year. It's trivial, a smart Italian advocated something similar at the turn of the last century -- no big deal.

You don't have to "follow" any currency, just like you don't have to shop at Hot Topic -- no like? Go elsewhere. I'm sorry if you were born next to a Hot Topic & traveling to other stores is inconvenient -- man up & do it. It's the whining about civilization collapsing because: propaganda -- that's what's tiring.

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: dave111223 on September 03, 2013, 12:44:40 AM

Quote from: crumbs on August 28, 2013, 05:51:51 PM

You understand that fiat != inflationary currency, right? Fiat can also be deflationary, if that's what you want. Most people don't.

I'd imagine if you walked the street and did a poll asking "Do you want the government to print more money?" Less than 50% would say "Yes"

And that's why smart kids don't walk the streets, asking people stupid questions and getting equally stupid answers.

If *you* walk down the street, dave111223, asking people to weigh in on the issue of cutting open chests, prying apart ribcages, and slicing up hearts, i doubt you'd get too many "OMG, do it NAO!" Yet heart surgery is pretty common and not altogether evol. Very few good things happen by polling strangers, dave111223 -- that sort of thing usually ends in tears & fail.

viboracecata

legendary

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1000

Varanida : Fair & Transparent Digital Ecosystem

Voted for option 1, bitcoin is only the alt coin for fiat currency.

Mike Christ

legendary

Activity: 1078

Merit: 1003

Quote from: aenemic on September 03, 2013, 03:26:31 AM

Quote from: dave111223 on September 03, 2013, 12:44:40 AM

Quote from: crumbs on August 28, 2013, 05:51:51 PM

You understand that fiat != inflationary currency, right? Fiat can also be deflationary, if that's what you want. Most people don't.

I'd imagine if you walked the street and did a poll asking "Do you want the government to print more money?" Less than 50% would say "Yes"

I fear most people would think that would solve problems. "What? We can just print more money?"

Most people are too ignorant of economics to make an informed decision, and the tiny percentage which are given the power to make a difference know not to bite the hand that feeds. The best option is to let people figure out on their own whether they prefer an inflationary or deflationary currency, and to allow both to thrive in a market; there's no reason to force everyone to stick to one currency, controlled by government; of course it can never be deflationary, that would take all the power away from government. It's not that most people don't want a deflationary currency, it's that they're not even aware of the possibility that an alternative exists; you cannot be aware of the box you're in if you've never been outside. The idea of one currency that everyone must follow or civilization will collapse is entirely based on propaganda, and it's getting tiring.

It doesn't matter whether fiat can be inflationary or deflationary; what matters is the reason why I can't decide which currency my peers and I prefer, and why government needs to issue a currency to begin with; we've already seen a plethora of examples of private currencies being successful, and as with anything which threatens the powers that be, they're always shut down.

aenemic

newbie

Activity: 45

Merit: 0

Quote from: dave111223 on September 03, 2013, 12:44:40 AM

Quote from: crumbs on August 28, 2013, 05:51:51 PM

You understand that fiat != inflationary currency, right? Fiat can also be deflationary, if that's what you want. Most people don't.

I'd imagine if you walked the street and did a poll asking "Do you want the government to print more money?" Less than 50% would say "Yes"

I fear most people would think that would solve problems. "What? We can just print more money?"

dave111223

legendary

Activity: 1190

Merit: 1001

Quote from: crumbs on August 28, 2013, 05:51:51 PM

You understand that fiat != inflationary currency, right? Fiat can also be deflationary, if that's what you want. Most people don't.

I'd imagine if you walked the street and did a poll asking "Do you want the government to print more money?" Less than 50% would say "Yes"

byronbb

legendary

Activity: 1414

Merit: 1000

HODL OR DIE

Obviously the topic is inflamitory, but the bears do seem to fail to explain in any logical scenario why bitcoin will go down. Bitcoin's network has improved security by magnitudes in the last year. A technical disaster seems further and further from possibility. While legal issues threaten the fiat to btc exchange, due to the nature of bitcoin's architecture, all attempts to thwart usage by interested parties will be circumvented. Even if it is relegated to the currency of the ever-growing, and now-more-nessecary-than-ever, deep-web, it will have its place, and when the reward continues to dwindle, the rare shall become ever so rare.

xxjs

sr. member

Activity: 280

Merit: 250

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 07:01:16 PM

Quote from: xxjs on September 02, 2013, 05:42:31 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 05:16:05 PM

Quote from: xxjs on September 02, 2013, 04:29:39 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 04:12:58 PM

WRT manfred and xxjs: yes

Now that it is becoming ever more obvious that the market-price mechanism for whole swathes of our financial "system" are actually price fixes that serve to perpetuate plutocratic, corporatist oligopolies, we have to ask the most meaningful question: what is the genuine value of these currencies we measure BTC against? I'm finding the whole concept of a Bitcoin price less and less persuasive.

The price of a money type is the inverse of all other things on the market, including other moneys. Clearly bitcoin is kind of unstable in that regard, and fiat and especially USD is kind of stable, in the short term at least, so it make sense to measure bitcoin price in USD. We must not forget that fiat, especially non-USD fiat, is fluctuating, even important fiats like euro, pound sterling and yen. When we talk about a future where bitcoin makes dents into government fiat, however, we must change to pricing it in useful goods, for instance a basket of commodities or a basket of consumer goods. If it stabilizes, we don't have to worry about the value of bitcoin, just like consumers of today don't worry about the value of the dollar, only about prices measured in dollars. We are not there yet.

Ok, so you're talking about valuations of all useful economic goods and mediums of exchange in relation to each other. My point (and here it is a second time) is that the distortions being applied to all of these stated price relationships might well render them all meaningless. SO MANY yardsticks are being manipulated that it is difficult to say that any of them have much basis in reality.

The only generalisations that hold true for me right now are: commodities are being manipulated high, US dollar is manipulated high + level to enforce artificial stability, currencies of US political enemies are strategically manipulated into death throes to enforce instability, interests rates kept artificially zero-esque to keep the stock markets looking rosy. When there is no real free markets, the prices are mostly propaganda tools, and not the empirical measurements that they should be (and that people assume they are).

I mostly agree, but you cannot manipulate all things the same way simultaneously. If you manipulate the yen down, other money and japan prices go up. Many submarkets are free, even if they are skewed one way or another by some forceful trader. It is the speculator's job to see through these things, and profit on them. For instance, if you think yen is forced down and that force will end, buy yen. Same with gold. The world (the market) has not ended yet.

The "forceful traders" are the dishonest actors helping to keep the narrative broadly "correct". Any apparent natural fluctuation is simulation within an acceptable range, not the real thing at all. The whole entire financial system and it's press are basically self-perpetuating, self-reinforcing to the extent that they resemble dogs imbibing their own vomit, re-upchucking, then on to another vomit supper. Throw a bit of defecation into the analogical dinner bowl and you've got a perhaps more complete metaphor. I think must be a little too difficult a concept to swallow, but these so-called numerical relationships are rigged to express what the most significant holders of the underlying wealth wish them to. Supply and demand crept carefully out of the window like vegetarian flatulence quite some time ago. It is an illusion, a mirage of meaningfulness. Doesn't mean you can't still trade in the markets and make money, but the normalcy is/always-to-some-extent-was masking an unsustainable form of economics. This reality is why people are drawn ever closer to cryptocurrency, it's the most believable empiricism on the table at all right now.

Well, well, then, I think you should try to get yourself a show on RT. (I try to be funny here)

johnyj

legendary

Activity: 1988

Merit: 1012

Beyond Imagination

Quote from: crumbs on September 02, 2013, 06:20:06 PM

This is interesting, i like it. If i'm understanding you correctly, everything appears static because everything is being manipulated? The price of beef appears to stay the same because ... while it skyrockets, the dollar is simultaneously manipulated to adjust for it? As is the cost of cigarettes and gasoline and hookers and blow?
Is my understanding correct?

Not everything appears static, only price of those in CPI appears to be static. All the banks know that if they give loan to beef makers and cigarette makers, those price will rise quickly and they will face inevitable rise in CPI, which in turn cause FED to tighten the money supply, thus less loan and less interest for them to make. So they only give loan to investments in capital goods like housing and PM, so that CPI remains stable

Another reason that the price of those goods in CPI seldom changes is because they almost reached full market saturation and there is barely any extra demand each year

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 07:09:00 PM

Quote from: crumbs on September 02, 2013, 07:04:42 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 06:47:58 PM

Quote from: crumbs on September 02, 2013, 06:20:06 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 05:16:05 PM

...
Ok, so you're talking about valuations of all useful economic goods and mediums of exchange in relation to each other. My point (and here it is a second time) is that the distortions being applied to all of these stated price relationships might well render them all meaningless. SO MANY yardsticks are being manipulated that it is difficult to say that any of them have much basis in reality.

The only generalisations that hold true for me right now are: commodities are being manipulated high, US dollar is manipulated high + level to enforce artificial stability, currencies of US political enemies are strategically manipulated into death throes to enforce instability, interests rates kept artificially zero-esque to keep the stock markets looking rosy. When there is no real free markets, the prices are mostly propaganda tools, and not the empirical measurements that they should be (and that people assume they are).

This is interesting, i like it. If i'm understanding you correctly, everything appears static because everything is being manipulated? The price of beef appears to stay the same because ... while it skyrockets, the dollar is simultaneously manipulated to adjust for it? As is the cost of cigarettes and gasoline and hookers and blow?
Is my understanding correct?

Well, no. The value of any money is suspect, the inter-relationships between currencies are political tools of the banking cartel, traders that don't know are just marionettes. Essential commodities that you cite are artificially higher than they should be, no supply-demand basis for it, only a mixture of profit incentive and (once again) political will to increase pressure on the serfs (don't make me regret replying to you)

I'm not sure there's a difference between the scenario you describe & laissez-faire capitalism. The banking cartel is simply smarter, more successful people who triumphed by bending reality to their will. They are our betters and must be respected and admired, not vilified.
(your parenthetical is soo temptin' Cheesy

)

lol. how many people run the crumbs account? I'm discerning at least two separate thought patterns, or can we put it down to some kind of MPD issue?

And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3080

Quote from: crumbs on September 02, 2013, 07:04:42 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 06:47:58 PM

Quote from: crumbs on September 02, 2013, 06:20:06 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 05:16:05 PM

...
Ok, so you're talking about valuations of all useful economic goods and mediums of exchange in relation to each other. My point (and here it is a second time) is that the distortions being applied to all of these stated price relationships might well render them all meaningless. SO MANY yardsticks are being manipulated that it is difficult to say that any of them have much basis in reality.

The only generalisations that hold true for me right now are: commodities are being manipulated high, US dollar is manipulated high + level to enforce artificial stability, currencies of US political enemies are strategically manipulated into death throes to enforce instability, interests rates kept artificially zero-esque to keep the stock markets looking rosy. When there is no real free markets, the prices are mostly propaganda tools, and not the empirical measurements that they should be (and that people assume they are).

This is interesting, i like it. If i'm understanding you correctly, everything appears static because everything is being manipulated? The price of beef appears to stay the same because ... while it skyrockets, the dollar is simultaneously manipulated to adjust for it? As is the cost of cigarettes and gasoline and hookers and blow?
Is my understanding correct?

Well, no. The value of any money is suspect, the inter-relationships between currencies are political tools of the banking cartel, traders that don't know are just marionettes. Essential commodities that you cite are artificially higher than they should be, no supply-demand basis for it, only a mixture of profit incentive and (once again) political will to increase pressure on the serfs (don't make me regret replying to you)

I'm not sure there's a difference between the scenario you describe & laissez-faire capitalism. The banking cartel is simply smarter, more successful people who triumphed by bending reality to their will. They are our betters and must be respected and admired, not vilified.
(your parenthetical is soo temptin' Cheesy

)

lol. how many people run the crumbs account? I'm discerning at least two separate thought patterns, or can we put it down to some kind of MPD issue?

crumbs

full member

Activity: 210

Merit: 100

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 06:47:58 PM

Quote from: crumbs on September 02, 2013, 06:20:06 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 05:16:05 PM

...
Ok, so you're talking about valuations of all useful economic goods and mediums of exchange in relation to each other. My point (and here it is a second time) is that the distortions being applied to all of these stated price relationships might well render them all meaningless. SO MANY yardsticks are being manipulated that it is difficult to say that any of them have much basis in reality.

The only generalisations that hold true for me right now are: commodities are being manipulated high, US dollar is manipulated high + level to enforce artificial stability, currencies of US political enemies are strategically manipulated into death throes to enforce instability, interests rates kept artificially zero-esque to keep the stock markets looking rosy. When there is no real free markets, the prices are mostly propaganda tools, and not the empirical measurements that they should be (and that people assume they are).

This is interesting, i like it. If i'm understanding you correctly, everything appears static because everything is being manipulated? The price of beef appears to stay the same because ... while it skyrockets, the dollar is simultaneously manipulated to adjust for it? As is the cost of cigarettes and gasoline and hookers and blow?
Is my understanding correct?

Well, no. The value of any money is suspect, the inter-relationships between currencies are political tools of the banking cartel, traders that don't know are just marionettes. Essential commodities that you cite are artificially higher than they should be, no supply-demand basis for it, only a mixture of profit incentive and (once again) political will to increase pressure on the serfs (don't make me regret replying to you)

I'm not sure there's a difference between the scenario you describe & laissez-faire capitalism. The banking cartel is simply smarter, more successful people who triumphed by bending reality to their will. They are our betters and must be respected and admired, not vilified.
(your parenthetical is soo temptin' Cheesy

)

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3080

Quote from: xxjs on September 02, 2013, 05:42:31 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 05:16:05 PM

Quote from: xxjs on September 02, 2013, 04:29:39 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 04:12:58 PM

WRT manfred and xxjs: yes

Now that it is becoming ever more obvious that the market-price mechanism for whole swathes of our financial "system" are actually price fixes that serve to perpetuate plutocratic, corporatist oligopolies, we have to ask the most meaningful question: what is the genuine value of these currencies we measure BTC against? I'm finding the whole concept of a Bitcoin price less and less persuasive.

The price of a money type is the inverse of all other things on the market, including other moneys. Clearly bitcoin is kind of unstable in that regard, and fiat and especially USD is kind of stable, in the short term at least, so it make sense to measure bitcoin price in USD. We must not forget that fiat, especially non-USD fiat, is fluctuating, even important fiats like euro, pound sterling and yen. When we talk about a future where bitcoin makes dents into government fiat, however, we must change to pricing it in useful goods, for instance a basket of commodities or a basket of consumer goods. If it stabilizes, we don't have to worry about the value of bitcoin, just like consumers of today don't worry about the value of the dollar, only about prices measured in dollars. We are not there yet.

Ok, so you're talking about valuations of all useful economic goods and mediums of exchange in relation to each other. My point (and here it is a second time) is that the distortions being applied to all of these stated price relationships might well render them all meaningless. SO MANY yardsticks are being manipulated that it is difficult to say that any of them have much basis in reality.

The only generalisations that hold true for me right now are: commodities are being manipulated high, US dollar is manipulated high + level to enforce artificial stability, currencies of US political enemies are strategically manipulated into death throes to enforce instability, interests rates kept artificially zero-esque to keep the stock markets looking rosy. When there is no real free markets, the prices are mostly propaganda tools, and not the empirical measurements that they should be (and that people assume they are).

I mostly agree, but you cannot manipulate all things the same way simultaneously. If you manipulate the yen down, other money and japan prices go up. Many submarkets are free, even if they are skewed one way or another by some forceful trader. It is the speculator's job to see through these things, and profit on them. For instance, if you think yen is forced down and that force will end, buy yen. Same with gold. The world (the market) has not ended yet.

The "forceful traders" are the dishonest actors helping to keep the narrative broadly "correct". Any apparent natural fluctuation is simulation within an acceptable range, not the real thing at all. The whole entire financial system and it's press are basically self-perpetuating, self-reinforcing to the extent that they resemble dogs imbibing their own vomit, re-upchucking, then on to another vomit supper. Throw a bit of defecation into the analogical dinner bowl and you've got a perhaps more complete metaphor. I think must be a little too difficult a concept to swallow, but these so-called numerical relationships are rigged to express what the most significant holders of the underlying wealth wish them to. Supply and demand crept carefully out of the window like vegetarian flatulence quite some time ago. It is an illusion, a mirage of meaningfulness. Doesn't mean you can't still trade in the markets and make money, but the normalcy is/always-to-some-extent-was masking an unsustainable form of economics. This reality is why people are drawn ever closer to cryptocurrency, it's the most believable empiricism on the table at all right now.

Carlton Banks

legendary

Activity: 3430

Merit: 3080

Quote from: crumbs on September 02, 2013, 06:20:06 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 02, 2013, 05:16:05 PM

...
Ok, so you're talking about valuations of all useful economic goods and mediums of exchange in relation to each other. My point (and here it is a second time) is that the distortions being applied to all of these stated price relationships might well render them all meaningless. SO MANY yardsticks are being manipulated that it is difficult to say that any of them have much basis in reality.

The only generalisations that hold true for me right now are: commodities are being manipulated high, US dollar is manipulated high + level to enforce artificial stability, currencies of US political enemies are strategically manipulated into death throes to enforce instability, interests rates kept artificially zero-esque to keep the stock markets looking rosy. When there is no real free markets, the prices are mostly propaganda tools, and not the empirical measurements that they should be (and that people assume they are).

This is interesting, i like it. If i'm understanding you correctly, everything appears static because everything is being manipulated? The price of beef appears to stay the same because ... while it skyrockets, the dollar is simultaneously manipulated to adjust for it? As is the cost of cigarettes and gasoline and hookers and blow?
Is my understanding correct?

Well, no. The value of any money is suspect, the inter-relationships between currencies are political tools of the banking cartel, traders that don't know are just marionettes. Essential commodities that you cite are artificially higher than they should be, no supply-demand basis for it, only a mixture of profit incentive and (once again) political will to increase pressure on the serfs (don't make me regret replying to you)

Topic: Those who deny that BTC will rise to seven figures: clearly explain yourselves (Read 8242 times)