Thoughts about Passport hardware wallet - page 6.

dkbit98

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 23, 2021, 02:06:18 PM

The whole point of a hardware wallet is to do one thing and one thing only.

No they are not meant to be used only for one thing, same like airgapped computers are not meant only for one thing.
You can use many hardware wallets as password managers or similar like yubikey device for signing on websites in more secure way.

Quote from: HCP on August 23, 2021, 06:29:06 PM

Is this actually possible... who knows? The point is, that adding "fun" hidden easter eggs like this, is not necessary... the dev effort would be much better spent ensuring that the "necessary" code is secure.

They are using well tested mostly Coldcard open source code that is audited, and I think they have bounty reward program for hacking them and finding bugs, so everyone is welcomed to do it. Go for it

HCP

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 23, 2021, 06:17:30 AM

Yes, it's much more risky and dangerous supporting bunch of shitcoins than adding some game.

It's fine if you want to use Bitcoin only... I can understand that, as I'm not a huge fan of altcoins either. Unfortunately, they're not going to go away... the values on coinmarketcap make that plainly obvious. The top 90+ coins all have marketcaps over $1 Billion dollars.

People are going to want to use these coins. So, as a commercial operator, your choices are:

1. Offer support (and hopefully put dev resources into making them secure as opposed to coding up unnecessary games) and potentially gain a customer.
or
2. Don't offer support and potentially lose a customer to your competitor.

Also, I suspect that the vast majority of altcoins supported are actually just ERC20 tokens anyway.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 23, 2021, 06:17:30 AM

Please tell me one scenario were someone will use this game to steal your coins or keys, when we know that Passport (like Coldcard) have no cables and it's never connected with your computer or internet in any way.

It's entirely plausible that a glitch in the game code (such as entering a specific key combo or achieving a high enough score to cause an overflow etc) could result in an attacker achieving something equivalent to "root" access on the device.

Is this actually possible... who knows? The point is, that adding "fun" hidden easter eggs like this, is not necessary... the dev effort would be much better spent ensuring that the "necessary" code is secure.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Just wait until someone run DOOM on it Tongue

Reminds me of when I got a Game Boy emulator running on my 1st or maybe 2nd generation (I can't really remember) iPod back in the day. Tongue

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 23, 2021, 03:49:34 AM

All hardware wallets that are not proving Bitcoin only firmware are way less secure than having Passport wallet with games

The Passport device has not been extensively pen tested like Ledger or Trezor devices have been, so there is no way as of yet of knowing if that is true.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 23, 2021, 06:17:30 AM

Do you use your smartphone that can store bunch of games, applications, maybe crypto wallets, google or iPhone tracking with other stuff, and do you also consider it unprofessional?

Because that is what a smartphone is meant to do. The whole point of a smartphone is to be multi-purpose and do near enough anything you want it do. The whole point of a hardware wallet is to do one thing and one thing only.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 23, 2021, 06:17:30 AM

Please tell me one scenario were someone will use this game to steal your coins or keys, when we know that Passport (like Coldcard) have no cables and it's never connected with your computer or internet in any way.

Who knows? The device hasn't been tested yet. Airgapped cold storage is never connected with the internet in any way, and yet it is not invulnerable to attacks.

dkbit98

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Most of those features are part of Ledger Live, not part of the hardware wallet.

It's directly connected with firmware of ledger device, there are even some shitcoins not even supported by ledger live app and you can use them with ledger.
Do you use your smartphone that can store bunch of games, applications, maybe crypto wallets, google or iPhone tracking with other stuff, and do you also consider it unprofessional?

Quote from: ?? on ??

supporting altcoin is quite different from adding video game.

Yes, it's much more risky and dangerous supporting bunch of shitcoins than adding some game.
Please tell me one scenario were someone will use this game to steal your coins or keys, when we know that Passport (like Coldcard) have no cables and it's never connected with your computer or internet in any way.

Pmalek

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 23, 2021, 03:49:34 AM

I remember example of hackers being able to steal your Bitcoin from ledger wallet because of flaw with some of their forked altcoin app isolation bypass:
https://monokh.com/posts/ledger-app-isolation-bypass

I remember this issue and it was much more severe than what Ledger was ready to admit.
However, if you scroll down on that report you shared to the section that describes the "Attack methods", you will see some examples how that vulnerability could have been used in practice.

They say:

Quote

You are invited to try out a new service with testnet coins, that actually sweeps real Bitcoin out of your wallet.

Invited by whom? You shouldn't trust and use dubious services and websites whether it's about crypto or anything else or accept invites and click on links from people you don't know. Unless you fiddle around with such things, you would have been safe from the attack.

Quote

You swap low value coins on an untrusted exchange. The exchange can read your Bitcoin balances and given a good enough opportunity will take the exit. You wouldn't have applied the same level care with altcoins.

I am not sure what exactly is meant with this. Maybe it's about connecting your Ledger hardware to a DEX. This is in my opinion the most dangerous attack method. If you had to connect to an unpopular exchange for whatever reason and they had ways to steal your bitcoin.

Quote

You could be targeted with a patched version of Ledger Live that sends Bitcoin instead of altcoins. Then prompted to do a P2P trade with altcoins.

Whoever is involved in crypto should know by now where and how to download the official software, what phishing is, and how to check the authenticity of what they just downloaded. That's now possible to do with Ledger Live as well. Grin

Don't fall for fake apps and your bitcoins will stay safe.

dkbit98

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Quote from: HCP on August 22, 2021, 06:46:50 PM

I don't see how hidden games enable one to manage their crypto holdings securely Roll Eyes

Nobody said that games make crypto holdings more secure, but adding support for bunch of altcoins in hardware wallet is much worse, especially if you are not using them, because they need to be constantly updated.
All hardware wallets that are not proving Bitcoin only firmware are way less secure than having Passport wallet with games, and as far as I know only ColdCard, Trezor, Keystone and Bitbox02 have BTC only firmware available.
I remember example of hackers being able to steal your Bitcoin from ledger wallet because of flaw with some of their forked altcoin app isolation bypass:
https://monokh.com/posts/ledger-app-isolation-bypass

HCP

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I concur... you cannot argue the fact that adding unnecessary code means that you are adding unnecessary risk.

Sure, hide snake in your graphical calculator or the control panel on your fridge or something... but a device that is meant to be a security device should really include only the bare minimum required to perform the desired tasks.

I don't see how hidden games enable one to manage their crypto holdings securely Roll Eyes

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 22, 2021, 07:46:59 AM

I am still using old style phone and it's working perfectly fine, looks similar with Passport wallet.

Similar, sure, but different enough to arouse suspicion. No phone from that era had a camera, and no phone is powered by 2x AAA batteries. It might pass a cursory glance, but a 5 second inspection will reveal to any thief the device is not a phone.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 22, 2021, 07:46:59 AM

You don't know because it is closed source, and I mentioned it as a prime example of unprofessionalism in hardware wallets (1 million leaked customer data).

And I never said otherwise. I've made my feelings regarding Ledger and their database leak well known, but their mistakes don't given other hardware wallet companies a free pass to do what they like. The fact remains that including completely unnecessary code on a hardware wallet device poses unnecessary security risks.

dkbit98

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 22, 2021, 07:43:15 AM

If the device looked like a Nintendo Switch or a modern phone, then that idea might have some merit. But the device looks nothing like either of them, and says "Foundation" across the back, so any attacker can discover what it really is with 5 seconds and a Google search.

I am still using old style phone and it's working perfectly fine, looks similar with Passport wallet.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 22, 2021, 07:43:15 AM

Don't know why you are bringing Ledger in to this, but none of that is in any Ledger firmware. Don't want to use any altcoins? Then don't install those apps. Don't want to use their exchanges service? Then don't use Ledger Live. None of that presents an attack surface to their hardware wallets.

Do you know what exactly is hidden in ledger firmware? Could be backdoor or hidden spyware.
You don't know because it is closed source, and I mentioned it as a prime example of unprofessionalism in hardware wallets (1 million leaked customer data).

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 22, 2021, 06:56:42 AM

Idea was probably to hide the fact that you are using hardware wallet, and I actually like the idea of hiding hardware wallet with fake game console or phone device, but maybe they should add two alternative version of firmware, one clean and other with games included.

If the device looked like a Nintendo Switch or a modern phone, then that idea might have some merit. But the device looks nothing like either of them, and says "Foundation" across the back, so any attacker can discover what it really is with 5 seconds and a Google search.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 22, 2021, 06:56:42 AM

I know one more hardware wallet called ledger that are adding bunch of shit features with fake dex swap exchanges, supporting bunch of altcoins

Don't know why you are bringing Ledger in to this, but none of that is in any Ledger firmware. Don't want to use any altcoins? Then don't install those apps. Don't want to use their exchanges service? Then don't use Ledger Live. None of that presents an attack surface to their hardware wallets. Hiding "features" on the device is a bad start. Hiding completely pointless features like Tetris on the device is just plain stupid.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 22, 2021, 06:56:42 AM

I think you know very well that coins are not actually stored on that device, only keys are.

My point is the same.

dkbit98

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Idea was probably to hide the fact that you are using hardware wallet, and I actually like the idea of hiding hardware wallet with fake game console or phone device, but maybe they should add two alternative version of firmware, one clean and other with games included.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 21, 2021, 03:00:07 PM

What other stupid "hidden features" have they included?

I know one more hardware wallet called ledger that are adding bunch of shit features with fake dex swap exchanges, supporting bunch of altcoins, they had multiple leaks, they proven their unprofessionalism to everyone, and people still buy that junk.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 21, 2021, 03:00:07 PM

It also screams of unprofessionalism to me. You want people to store thousands or even millions of dollars worth of cryptocurrency on your device, but then you say "Lol, we made it play Snake and Tetris!

I think you know very well that coins are not actually stored on that device, only keys are.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: SFR10 on August 21, 2021, 09:26:53 AM

There might be more ^[link], but not sure how reliable it is.

That guy says he worked on the project for a while. Don't see what his motivation would be to make something like that up.

On further examination, there is indeed an entire page on their GitHub which codes for this Tetris game: https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/blob/b26d45bdeb240a7f631037b71c149f57f1d8c5fc/ports/stm32/boards/Passport/modules/stacking_sats.py

Quote from: DaveF on August 21, 2021, 02:48:09 PM

Seriously, in something like this if the code is not needed, you don't put it in. The last thing you want in something that is supposed to be all about security, is stuff that is not related to security.

It also screams of unprofessionalism to me. You want people to store thousands or even millions of dollars worth of cryptocurrency on your device, but then you say "Lol, we made it play Snake and Tetris! Next update we'll add Frogger too!" Get that bloatware off the device, get the code down to the minimum required to function to minimize any attack surface, and focus on developing your security features instead of implementing stupid games.

What other stupid "hidden features" have they included?

DaveF

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 20, 2021, 03:53:29 AM

Quote from: HCP on August 19, 2021, 08:33:07 PM

How did I know it was going to be "Snake" before I even clicked on the link? Cheesy

But why? Every extra piece of code has the potential to cause a bug or present a vulnerability. Why add in gimmicks like a snake game which no one is ever going to use?

To justify the price tag?
Something to do while waiting for your transaction to confirm?
It really is an old Nokia under it all?

Seriously, in something like this if the code is not needed, you don't put it in. The last thing you want in something that is supposed to be all about security, is stuff that is not related to security.

Yes is cool but, so not needed.

-Dave

SFR10

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 19, 2021, 05:44:46 AM

I think this could be free Bitcoin whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto looking like a passport

You were right ^{[it's a nice touch]}... Found a podcast ^{[by their CEO - Zach Herbert]} that confirms what's actually the surprise gift:

Link ^{[skip to 1:00:50]}

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 19, 2021, 05:44:46 AM

(I hope Faketoshi won't sue them for this Cheesy

),

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 19, 2021, 05:44:46 AM

Yeah, I saw that hidden famous retro game that every old Nokia user knows Wink

Quote from: HCP on August 19, 2021, 08:33:07 PM

How did I know it was going to be "Snake" before I even clicked on the link? Cheesy

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 20, 2021, 03:53:29 AM

Why add in gimmicks like a snake game which no one is ever going to use?

There might be more ^[link], but not sure how reliable it is.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: HCP on August 19, 2021, 08:33:07 PM

How did I know it was going to be "Snake" before I even clicked on the link? Cheesy

But why? Every extra piece of code has the potential to cause a bug or present a vulnerability. Why add in gimmicks like a snake game which no one is ever going to use?

HCP

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Quote from: SFR10 on August 19, 2021, 05:30:21 AM

Just found out it comes with an interesting ^{[probably not for everyone out there, but it brings back good old memories]} "secret" menu.

How did I know it was going to be "Snake" before I even clicked on the link? Cheesy

Probably because the device looks like an old Nokia phone Tongue

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 19, 2021, 03:50:36 AM

https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1288173904637435904

And honestly... I'm kinda proud of myself for NOT having a collection like Jameson... I've been soooo restrained with hardware wallets. I've had shopping carts all loaded up and got to checkout and was like "No! I don't need another one" hahaha.

dkbit98

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Quote from: SFR10 on August 19, 2021, 05:30:21 AM

Does anybody know what's the "surprise gift" that's included on the FE ones?

I think this could be free Bitcoin whitepaper by Satoshi Nakamoto looking like a passport (I hope Faketoshi won't sue them for this Cheesy

), but I am not sure if that is actual surprise gift.
There are some QR codes in package coming in package so it could be some free sats or it's just links for Foundation website.

Quote from: SFR10 on August 19, 2021, 05:30:21 AM

Just found out it comes with an interesting ^{[probably not for everyone out there, but it brings back good old memories]} "secret" menu.

Yeah, I saw that hidden famous retro game that every old Nokia user knows Wink

SFR10

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 17, 2021, 06:21:28 AM

only thing that is stopping me to buy one of this nokia-like devices is price of $299 :/

I agree with what @ETFbitcoin said, but another reason ^{[apart from being overpriced - IMO, it's worth around $150 at most]} why only a few people have bought it so far, has to be because of its limited cryptocurrency support ^{[personally, I only use BTCitcoin but that's not the case with a lot of users out there]}.

Does anybody know what's the "surprise gift" that's included on the FE ones?

Just found out it comes with an interesting ^{[probably not for everyone out there, but it brings back good old memories]} "secret" menu.

dkbit98

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Quote from: HCP on August 19, 2021, 03:09:06 AM

It really does have some nice features, but given that I already have 3 or 4 hardware wallets, I can't really justify the $299 price tag just for a couple of "nice to have, but not essential" features Undecided

I always liked small electronic devices even before hardware wallets, and bunch of those devices are just collecting dust and maybe I used them only few times in my life.
This reminds me about one funny 2020 tweet from Jameson Lopp regarding possible problem with his hardware wallets collection Cheesy

,
but having multiple hardware wallets can be used for improving security with multisig, and one device will die sooner or later so you always have replacement ready.

https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1288173904637435904

HCP

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It does seem expensive compared with other hardware wallets... but if it really does what it says on the tin, then it's a fairly decent solution.

It really does have some nice features, but given that I already have 3 or 4 hardware wallets, I can't really justify the $299 price tag just for a couple of "nice to have, but not essential" features Undecided

Maybe if Bitcoin moons to $100k I'll splash out for shits and giggles Wink

Topic: Thoughts about Passport hardware wallet - page 6. (Read 2294 times)