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Topic: Thoughts on Zcash? - page 58. (Read 123380 times)

full member
Activity: 588
Merit: 100
May 05, 2016, 06:30:07 AM
Zcash appears to be demonstrating their lack of technical expertise on block chain related matters:

Additionally I was thinking that this Equihash can be trivially sped up on an ASIC because the Equihash algorithm is not memory latency bound and thus is bound on the sorting and computation speed and/or the memory bandwidth, which can be optimized with specialized hardware.

There is no publicly available optimized code for Equihash, so we don't really know to what extent it
is bandwidth or latency bound. There may be subtle trade offs between the two. We really need to see the memory behaviour of actual running optimized code.

1. You didn't address my electrical efficiency point, which I think is probably the most damning. I very much doubt that the memory power consumption will be even 1/10 of the computational power consumption. Thus an ASIC will be at least 10 times more power efficient, Don't I remember pointing out the same issue with your Cuckoo hash? What was your retort again?

2. I also very much doubt it will be latency bound (even after the 10X speed up of the computation), because optimized sorting doesn't have to be random access.

For any memory bandwidth bound, there is this:


Out of interest. Why does it matter for a coin which is currently in the alpha stage and only running on the test net?
Isn't the whole point of this stage to weed out issues like this and work on a more sustainable architecture before it ever goes live?

If it goes live with these issues then I would find it worrisome and quite comical, but I don't understand the point of complaining about a alpha stage.

Ostensibly you do not understand the technical distinction I noted.

The issue here is not one of ferreting out bugs and optimization, which is what an alpha and beta stage release are for. Rather, I am noting they didn't even mention (nor anticipate) in their research paper all the factors that are relevant, so it may exemplify they are not very expertise in this particular area of ASIC resistant proof-of-work technology.

No, I misunderstood. But now I agree.

But then I think it is much to early to reach a verdict.
The coin is not near to being finished and if it gets released with such or other fundamental issues then they don't have anything at all. Just more noise in the crypto market.
This could be said about any crypto, but the team behind Zcash looks very promising. So I definitely want to see where this project goes in short and long term.

Has anyone reviewed the white paper further and found any other issues?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 24, 2016, 06:22:02 PM
Zcash appears to be demonstrating their lack of technical expertise on block chain related matters:

Additionally I was thinking that this Equihash can be trivially sped up on an ASIC because the Equihash algorithm is not memory latency bound and thus is bound on the sorting and computation speed and/or the memory bandwidth, which can be optimized with specialized hardware.

There is no publicly available optimized code for Equihash, so we don't really know to what extent it
is bandwidth or latency bound. There may be subtle trade offs between the two. We really need to see the memory behaviour of actual running optimized code.

1. You didn't address my electrical efficiency point, which I think is probably the most damning. I very much doubt that the memory power consumption will be even 1/10 of the computational power consumption. Thus an ASIC will be at least 10 times more power efficient, Don't I remember pointing out the same issue with your Cuckoo hash? What was your retort again?

2. I also very much doubt it will be latency bound (even after the 10X speed up of the computation), because optimized sorting doesn't have to be random access.

For any memory bandwidth bound, there is this:


Out of interest. Why does it matter for a coin which is currently in the alpha stage and only running on the test net?
Isn't the whole point of this stage to weed out issues like this and work on a more sustainable architecture before it ever goes live?

If it goes live with these issues then I would find it worrisome and quite comical, but I don't understand the point of complaining about a alpha stage.

Ostensibly you do not understand the technical distinction I noted.

The issue here is not one of ferreting out bugs and optimization, which is what an alpha and beta stage release are for. Rather, I am noting they didn't even mention (nor anticipate) in their research paper all the factors that are relevant, so it may exemplify they are not very expertise in this particular area of ASIC resistant proof-of-work technology.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1036
Facts are more efficient than fud
April 24, 2016, 08:14:41 AM
Zcash appears to be demonstrating their lack of technical expertise on block chain related matters:

Additionally I was thinking that this Equihash can be trivially sped up on an ASIC because the Equihash algorithm is not memory latency bound and thus is bound on the sorting and computation speed and/or the memory bandwidth, which can be optimized with specialized hardware.

There is no publicly available optimized code for Equihash, so we don't really know to what extent it
is bandwidth or latency bound. There may be subtle trade offs between the two. We really need to see the memory behaviour of actual running optimized code.

1. You didn't address my electrical efficiency point, which I think is probably the most damning. I very much doubt that the memory power consumption will be even 1/10 of the computational power consumption. Thus an ASIC will be at least 10 times more power efficient, Don't I remember pointing out the same issue with your Cuckoo hash? What was your retort again?

2. I also very much doubt it will be latency bound (even after the 10X speed up of the computation), because optimized sorting doesn't have to be random access.

For any memory bandwidth bound, there is this:


Out of interest. Why does it matter for a coin which is currently in the alpha stage and only running on the test net?
Isn't the whole point of this stage to weed out issues like this and work on a more sustainable architecture before it ever goes live?

If it goes live with these issues then I would find it worrisome and quite comical, but I don't understand the point of complaining about a alpha stage.

Not sure his bedside manner should be of much interest. If the concerns, complaints, (whatever you want to ascribe to the general term of potential issues) are valid, it becomes a question of whether they are solvable? Can the current organization solve them in their current state? Are they willing to adapt (gain resources, change plans, etc...) in order to solve them? Will changing (organization, code, etc...) result in a the desired state or did the initial state render all possible future states failures? --think of an organism that you want to fly, but starts with the evolutionary traits of an elephant; it may get there eventually, but it requires a long evolutionary road and/or new sciences to be developed to augment the evolutionary process--hardly an efficient process.

My position is that the threat of financial information being at the whim of everyone with the knowledge, resources, or both, to exploit the average citizen into servitude (by means of control or theft) is of too great importance for bruised egos to get in the way of progress. Maybe a solution would be to focus on the facts as they are and not how they are served up.
full member
Activity: 588
Merit: 100
April 24, 2016, 06:41:15 AM
Zcash appears to be demonstrating their lack of technical expertise on block chain related matters:

Additionally I was thinking that this Equihash can be trivially sped up on an ASIC because the Equihash algorithm is not memory latency bound and thus is bound on the sorting and computation speed and/or the memory bandwidth, which can be optimized with specialized hardware.

There is no publicly available optimized code for Equihash, so we don't really know to what extent it
is bandwidth or latency bound. There may be subtle trade offs between the two. We really need to see the memory behaviour of actual running optimized code.

1. You didn't address my electrical efficiency point, which I think is probably the most damning. I very much doubt that the memory power consumption will be even 1/10 of the computational power consumption. Thus an ASIC will be at least 10 times more power efficient, Don't I remember pointing out the same issue with your Cuckoo hash? What was your retort again?

2. I also very much doubt it will be latency bound (even after the 10X speed up of the computation), because optimized sorting doesn't have to be random access.

For any memory bandwidth bound, there is this:


Out of interest. Why does it matter for a coin which is currently in the alpha stage and only running on the test net?
Isn't the whole point of this stage to weed out issues like this and work on a more sustainable architecture before it ever goes live?

If it goes live with these issues then I would find it worrisome and quite comical, but I don't understand the point of complaining about a alpha stage.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 17, 2016, 04:03:03 AM
Zcash appears to be demonstrating their lack of technical expertise on block chain related matters:

Additionally I was thinking that this Equihash can be trivially sped up on an ASIC because the Equihash algorithm is not memory latency bound and thus is bound on the sorting and computation speed and/or the memory bandwidth, which can be optimized with specialized hardware.

There is no publicly available optimized code for Equihash, so we don't really know to what extent it
is bandwidth or latency bound. There may be subtle trade offs between the two. We really need to see the memory behaviour of actual running optimized code.

1. You didn't address my electrical efficiency point, which I think is probably the most damning. I very much doubt that the memory power consumption will be even 1/10 of the computational power consumption. Thus an ASIC will be at least 10 times more power efficient, Don't I remember pointing out the same issue with your Cuckoo hash? What was your retort again?

2. I also very much doubt it will be latency bound (even after the 10X speed up of the computation), because optimized sorting doesn't have to be random access.

For any memory bandwidth bound, there is this:

hero member
Activity: 1008
Merit: 500
April 16, 2016, 09:17:15 PM
I have added ZeroCash to http://miningcountdown.com hopefully they give us a date soon so we can mine it.
legendary
Activity: 3836
Merit: 4969
Doomed to see the future and unable to prevent it
April 16, 2016, 07:06:35 PM
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 504
legendary
Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
April 16, 2016, 01:58:31 PM
where cna i find the technical paper for zcash?
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
April 16, 2016, 12:55:21 PM
hero member
Activity: 615
Merit: 500
April 15, 2016, 05:17:36 PM
when does this launch?
legendary
Activity: 1354
Merit: 1020
I was diagnosed with brain parasite
March 13, 2016, 06:00:51 AM
Ethereum can be programmed to do anything including anonymity so no more need for specialized coins.

Ethereum will eventually provide all needs. Other coins pale in comparison.

Ethereum is already a mature produce with $millions spent on development. Z.cash is immature and not yet ready for prime time. Ethereum's price and market cap are going up and now #2 market cap.

Ethereum will steamroll everything including Bitcoin.

Sell your XMR and DRK for ETH.

You must be the dumbest ETH shill I ever saw, and I saw lot of those creatures.
hero member
Activity: 966
Merit: 1003
March 12, 2016, 05:39:46 AM
insteresting.

any thought about this one?  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-destiny-scrypt-swap-to-expanse-asset-road-map-1370260

also claimed to adopt zerocash.

Supply mined in silence, 2 week distribution over, now it's time to pump.


this maybe a big pump next month.
the current price is dirty cheap.

buy it and you will get 40 *   rewards.

very soon. don't miss the train.

very promising project, trust me.

can't believe ppl never paid attention to this one.

Less than 2000 coins to be produced by POW... Grin

I can feel something big will happen soon

zerocoin sold 10% zerocoin, 2.1 m  out of 21 million to investor, stuff.   around 1million USD.

Imagine if Destiny first release zerocash anonymity with smart contract.

huger than we can imagine. baby.

time to get on board.

this is huge.

hint.  DASH

Cannot believe i missed the POW on this coin. Wish i had noticed it at launch. just had to buy 0.5 BTC worth at almost 50k. Really kicking myself, but hopefully i will still make good on my BTC  Grin

could be very huge.  remind me of early days of DASH.

LOL

sell your coins for peanuts.

it will buy you a house later.

don't worry. weak hands are already out.

it is only 30k USD market cap.

we hold fast and ready for epic pump.

lower price is a easy entry for noobs, and certainly easy for them to push the market cap up.

this is an issue of psychology.  maybe you have to think very hard to  figure it out.

anyway, the IQ is quite different from one man to another.

hint.  dash and monero will soon be obsolete.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
March 11, 2016, 03:19:21 PM
insteresting.

any thought about this one?  https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-destiny-scrypt-swap-to-expanse-asset-road-map-1370260

also claimed to adopt zerocash.
newbie
Activity: 58
Merit: 0
March 09, 2016, 09:13:16 PM

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

Hello, I noticed this thread in our referrer logs. I am the author of that post on Zcash. To be clear, neither myself nor okTurtles are in any way associated with Monero. I chose Monero simply as an example of one well known Cryptonote cryptocurrency, and I chose it specifically because it felt (to me) to be one of the more reputable cryptonote implementations (the post also links to this comprehensive listing of cryptonotes).

Regarding your comment not appearing on the post, I am very sorry but I'm not aware of any such comment being posted. I checked whether Akismet (our anti-spam software) might have captured it, but searching for "Cryptonote" and "Monero" did not bring up any results.

We'd be more than happy to host your comment criticizing Monero for any technical shortcomings. I am very curious what those shortcomings are, so if you'd like to PM me the email you used to post the comment that might make it easier for me to find it. Or, you are more than welcome to try posting it again.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 03, 2016, 08:11:00 AM

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.


Agree. Furthermore, the blog post was about Zcash and Monero was only mentioned twice (once as rebuttal that Monero can't hide amounts) and once as an alternative. I agree with TPTB_need_war that if the blogpost was about Monero weaknesses should be addressed.

That is reasonable. I just wish Monero would go out-of-its-way to insure the criticisms of its own tech are always mentioned for those resources its supporters cite. You can be sure if I make a coin, the flaws will be mentioned in the white paper.

I am of the belief that BS eventually walks and only substance rules the roost.

On that video of the recent Satoshi roundtable, Roger Ver demonstrated how clueless he is about the technology issues surrounding the block chain scaling debacle. He said he felt those against a block size increase were constantly changing their reasons and thus block chain increases don't have real negative repressions. It is not that the reasons are changing, but rather the reasons Bitcoin can't scale are multiplying as people investigate and understand better the issues.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 1141
March 03, 2016, 07:42:14 AM

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.


Agree. Furthermore, the blog post was about Zcash and Monero was only mentioned twice (once as rebuttal that Monero can't hide amounts) and once as an alternative. I agree with TPTB_need_war that if the blogpost was about Monero weaknesses should be addressed.
newbie
Activity: 17
Merit: 0
March 03, 2016, 07:38:43 AM

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.


damn I love this guy, a shining light of common sense and pragmatism against the hypocrisy in this forum, god speed dude.
legendary
Activity: 2968
Merit: 1198
March 02, 2016, 10:54:59 PM

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 262
March 02, 2016, 09:58:41 PM

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

Also one final followup to slapper regarding what I claim is his incorrect perception that I am trying to take credit of the work of others (and please do click this quote so you can go read all the context):

[...]

Please understand the salient distinction. One general problem that I've observed numerous times in the block chain arena, is the very smart coders and mathematicians/cryptographers seem to have blind spots on economics (and even on the importance of degrees-of-freedom in design).
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