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Topic: Tornado cash founders charged with money laundering/sanctions violations - page 2. (Read 1106 times)

legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 3507
Crypto Swap Exchange
Usually I don't store funds for exchange, but those funds are there for daily trading. Still, they allow trades but disable withdrawals. 

Did I understand correctly, the funds you are talking about were sent directly from Tornado source to Binance?
I know of earlier cases where Binance requested verification for funds deposited directly from the mixer, while it was not the case for mixer -> wallet -> Binance. It is the same starting address where the funds came from.
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 2223
Signature space for rent
So I don't know whether Binance will restore my account. However, it seems pretty risky to use any kind of mixer. Either the government or centralised exchanges will catch up. 
They cannot know that the money comes from the mixer, but their verification algorithms will try to freeze any account they suspect, especially if the mixers are of the Tornado Cash type, where there is a Contract Address. Therefore, if you want to enhance your privacy, it is better to use Bitcoin mixers, or at least exchange Bitcoin to Monero and then Back again to Bitcoin.

Contact Binance. They will ask you for the source of the funds. If you are able to prove their source, the account will be restored.

I have contacted them. Though they haven't asked for anything yet, the account has frozen. They need 30 working days, according to them, to make a full investigation. After that, they will let me know what the next step is. I have provided proof that I received those funds for marketing through their live support. But it doesn't help unlock my account immediately. A few days remain to reach 30 working days. I will make a post after their decision. Usually I don't store funds for exchange, but those funds are there for daily trading. Still, they allow trades but disable withdrawals. 
legendary
Activity: 2688
Merit: 3983
So I don't know whether Binance will restore my account. However, it seems pretty risky to use any kind of mixer. Either the government or centralised exchanges will catch up. 
They cannot know that the money comes from the mixer, but their verification algorithms will try to freeze any account they suspect, especially if the mixers are of the Tornado Cash type, where there is a Contract Address. Therefore, if you want to enhance your privacy, it is better to use Bitcoin mixers, or at least exchange Bitcoin to Monero and then Back again to Bitcoin.

Contact Binance. They will ask you for the source of the funds. If you are able to prove their source, the account will be restored.
legendary
Activity: 2576
Merit: 1860
So it's pretty clear that governments don't want to allow crypto mixers anymore. I met Tornado Cash a few days ago. One of my clients sent me funds, and his wallet was related to Tornado Cash. Unfortunately, I received the funds on Binance, and they suspended my account temporarily. Yet it hasn't been solved and is under investigation. After that, this news pops up. So I don't know whether Binance will restore my account. However, it seems pretty risky to use any kind of mixer. Either the government or centralised exchanges will catch up.

It's expected that Binance is going to be stricter now more than ever. Now that they've been slapped with huge fines and even had its founder and former CEO held in the US for his sentencing, they must already be walking on eggshells right now.

I hope they would allow you to at least make a withdrawal though. If that transaction would cost you your account, at least you can have your money back first.

It's unfortunate, but it seems that at this point in time, funds coming from mixers shouldn't anymore cross paths with centralized exchanges. They'll most likely be frozen.
legendary
Activity: 2338
Merit: 1261
Heisenberg
So it's pretty clear that governments don't want to allow crypto mixers anymore. I met Tornado Cash a few days ago. One of my clients sent me funds, and his wallet was related to Tornado Cash. Unfortunately, I received the funds on Binance, and they suspended my account temporarily. Yet it hasn't been solved and is under investigation. After that, this news pops up. So I don't know whether Binance will restore my account. However, it seems pretty risky to use any kind of mixer. Either the government or centralised exchanges will catch up. 
It's a sanctioned mixer, which means any funds associated with it will be flagged by pretty much any centralized exchange around. Binance has had its own troubles in the past with the US regulators, so I don't think they would want to go sown the same road again.

Have they asked you anything yet regarding the funds you sent there?
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 2223
Signature space for rent
So it's pretty clear that governments don't want to allow crypto mixers anymore. I met Tornado Cash a few days ago. One of my clients sent me funds, and his wallet was related to Tornado Cash. Unfortunately, I received the funds on Binance, and they suspended my account temporarily. Yet it hasn't been solved and is under investigation. After that, this news pops up. So I don't know whether Binance will restore my account. However, it seems pretty risky to use any kind of mixer. Either the government or centralised exchanges will catch up. 
member
Activity: 210
Merit: 31
Privacy is not a crime. However, it appears that if a person uses a mixer or a something similar to Tornado Cash, the government can call it moneylaundering even if you only want to hide your cryptocoins in a personal private wallet. I wish the Dutch prosecutors will lose in this trial.

This is very true - Privacy is not a crime.

The problem is, if the Government can't track it or tax you on it, they won't let you have it. Perfect example is the banning of Monero and other privacy-based blockchains and coins by certain governments in the world.

Tornado Cash was used by North Korea / Lazarus Group to hide their stolen coins so they could cash it out. I don't believe the developers of Tornado Cash should be punished due to this though.

It's like saying, if Chase Bank has been used by international drug gangs to proceed fiat from crime, does that mean Chase Bank executives should be sanctioned?
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
Privacy is not a crime. However, it appears that if a person uses a mixer or a something similar to Tornado Cash, the government can call it moneylaundering even if you only want to hide your cryptocoins in a personal private wallet. I wish the Dutch prosecutors will lose in this trial.

The trial will begin on March 26.



Alexey Pertsev, the Tornado Cash developer who has become a symbol of state overreach on crypto crime, laundered more than $1.2 billion in dirty money, according to an indictment by Dutch prosecutors obtained by DL News.

Pertsev, who is scheduled to stand trial in the Dutch city of ‘s-Hertogenbosch beginning March 26, “made a habit of committing money laundering,” according to the three-page document, which was written in Dutch and was revealed Tuesday.

Pertsev has denied he violated money laundering laws ever since he was arrested in August 2022.

“Prosecutors are suspecting Pertsev of money laundering and they have described it in a general way, but they don’t specify which exact acts he has committed to take part in the criminal offence,” Keith Cheng, Pertsev’s lawyer, told DL News Tuesday


Read in full https://www.dlnews.com/articles/people-culture/alexey-pertsev-accused-of-laundering-1bn-at-tornado-cash/
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
On the news about the Lazarus Group and how the American government is using this for fud and fear tactics, It appears we have another one. The FBI identified that it was the Lazarus Group that hacked stake.com. I shake my head. I am not implying that this is fake news, however, anything can be blamed on North Korea.



The FBI is issuing this release to warn the public regarding the theft of approximately $41 million in virtual currency from Stake.com, an online casino and betting platform. The FBI has confirmed that this theft took place on or about September 4, 2023, and attributes it to the Lazarus Group (also known as APT38) which is comprised of DPRK cyber actors. 

Source https://www.fbi.gov/news/press-releases/fbi-identifies-lazarus-group-cyber-actors-as-responsible-for-theft-of-41-million-from-stakecom



There are also other articles that say these hacked cryptocoins are being used for funding North Korea's nuclear missile program.
legendary
Activity: 3500
Merit: 6320
Crypto Swap Exchange
What the Tornado Cash founders appear to have done wrong is if they wanted to develop opensource software that might be cracked down by the government, they should have done this more anonymously similar to what Satoshi has done when he began developing bitcoin. This is not only good for security, it will also encourage more developers to contribute to the project anonymously.
Developers that work on shitcoins like ethereum usually never care much about privacy, that is strange thing to do especially if you are creating something that improves privacy.
I never hard of any large central bank being accused of money laundering, and this was not invented yesterday, that is why there are constant wars around the world, and everyone knows that.

Central banks, not many. Commercial banks there have been a bunch over the years.

https://sanctionscanner.com/blog/the-five-biggest-money-laundering-scandals-317

The problem comes back to big banks have 1000s if not 10s of 1000s of employees. You can find that this one or that one is doing something wrong. But proving who knew what and when they knew it is difficult.
If an order comes down that says we need to make these numbers in revenue and people panic about their jobs and look the other way is one thing.
Having an order come down that says we need to make these numbers in revenue and do whatever it takes to do it, is another.
And most people that high up know not to say do whatever it takes in any way that could come back to them.
The government can harass a corporation, it can fine a corporation, it can even shut it down. But you can't lock it up.

People you can lock up. So when you have a small target, like 2 people, then you can go after them.

-Dave
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
What the Tornado Cash founders appear to have done wrong is if they wanted to develop opensource software that might be cracked down by the government, they should have done this more anonymously similar to what Satoshi has done when he began developing bitcoin. This is not only good for security, it will also encourage more developers to contribute to the project anonymously.
Developers that work on shitcoins like ethereum usually never care much about privacy, that is strange thing to do especially if you are creating something that improves privacy.
I never hard of any large central bank being accused of money laundering, and this was not invented yesterday, that is why there are constant wars around the world, and everyone knows that.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
perhaps lead to an attempt of a final ban on crypto?
I don't think the US government at least will go down the route of an outright crypto ban. It is much more lucrative for them, both in terms of taxation and data harvesting, to instead pass the most ridiculous regulations which require all bitcoin to be fully KYCed. First it will be banning non-KYC trading, then it will be mandating that all withdrawal addresses from exchanges are linked to KYC data (such as the AOPP proposal), and then it will be mandating that all bitcoin is only stored on regulated KYC exchanges and you are not allowed to withdrawal it at all. I'm sure I don't need to point out how we should fight back against this nonsense as strongly as possible.

Does he return to the original victims?
Ha! Suggesting the government might actually care about the victims! Good one! Tongue No, the government simply keep it for themselves or auction it off.

What the Tornado Cash founders appear to have done wrong is if they wanted to develop opensource software that might be cracked down by the government, they should have done this more anonymously similar to what Satoshi has done when he began developing bitcoin.
Or they should have bought out our politicians like the fiat banks do. That gives them a free pass to launder trillions.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
-snip-
I'm sure the DoJ will be equally punitive against any fiat banks caught to be laundering money for North Korea though, right!?

Like when JPMorgan Chase laundered $89 million for 11 companies which they knew were linked to North Korea and were previously flagged as being suspicious? Or when BNY Mellon laundered $86 million in transactions which had "no clear commercial reason" for individuals which had talked openly in the media about "conducting business with North Korea"? I'm sure the DoJ will soon be handing out some punishments soon, right!?

Oh no, those documents came out 3 years ago and literally nothing happened: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/secret-documents-show-how-north-korea-launders-money-through-u-n1240329

As I said above, this has absolutely nothing to do with money laundering, and has everything to do with the government losing its grip on your lives. They don't care about money being laundered at all, as long as it is the right people doing the laundering.

What the Tornado Cash founders appear to have done wrong is if they wanted to develop opensource software that might be cracked down by the government, they should have done this more anonymously similar to what Satoshi has done when he began developing bitcoin. This is not only good for security, it will also encourage more developers to contribute to the project anonymously.

The other reason that they should have been more anonymous is because the founders hold governance tokens and they are making profit from the usage of this opensource mixer. The government does not want to encourage the creation of a decentralized organization the profits from criminal activity because presently it is easy to create by using smart contracts, blockchain and DeFi.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 3507
Crypto Swap Exchange
As I said above, this has absolutely nothing to do with money laundering, and has everything to do with the government losing its grip on your lives. They don't care about money being laundered at all, as long as it is the right people doing the laundering.

I completely agree with this statement, but does the "selective" ban of the service, according to the AML excuse, in addition to attempts to control the sphere of bitcoins and cryptocurrencies, perhaps lead to an attempt of a final ban on crypto?

I didn't really follow the whole issue much, but what is done with seized funds from services that were closed due to money laundering? CM for example, or what is done with the money that someone has determined came from the Lazarus group or similar? Does he return to the original victims?
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
-snip-
I'm sure the DoJ will be equally punitive against any fiat banks caught to be laundering money for North Korea though, right!?

Like when JPMorgan Chase laundered $89 million for 11 companies which they knew were linked to North Korea and were previously flagged as being suspicious? Or when BNY Mellon laundered $86 million in transactions which had "no clear commercial reason" for individuals which had talked openly in the media about "conducting business with North Korea"? I'm sure the DoJ will soon be handing out some punishments soon, right!?

Oh no, those documents came out 3 years ago and literally nothing happened: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/secret-documents-show-how-north-korea-launders-money-through-u-n1240329

As I said above, this has absolutely nothing to do with money laundering, and has everything to do with the government losing its grip on your lives. They don't care about money being laundered at all, as long as it is the right people doing the laundering.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 1460
Stumbled across this post on Reddit, where the OP nicely expresses the same sentiments I expressed earlier in this thread:

The so-called "anti-money laundering" movement that pushed for this indictment is a fascist mass-surveillance ideology wrapped up in euphemisms. It's reminiscient of the surveillance state ideology espoused by the CCP in China.

This doesn't just apply to mixers, but to everything that is pushed in the name of "AML". They'll go after mixers, after peer to peer trades, after DEXs, after the stupidly named "self hosted" wallets (which just means holding your own keys), after any and all services which don't collect KYC data. They can't stand a form of money which they do not have absolute control over. It weakness their control, weakness their grip on your life. Their ultimate goal is that all bitcoin is bought and paid for only on regulated KYC platforms, and it never leaves those regulated KYC platforms. The only thing you will be allowed to do with it is send it from one regulated KYC platform to another, using a list which they will create of "approved" platforms. Owning your own keys won't be allowed. Making your own transactions won't be allowed.

Unless people stop acquiescing to the ever more intense and invasive demands of centralized exchanges, then this is the future we are sleep walking in to.

I very much agree. On the case of the Tornado Cash founders, the DOJ used fud by implying that the Lazarus group might be using Tornado Cash to mix their funds. I reckon none of this is connected to the Lazarus group because their funds are being tracked already. It is speculated that the Lazarus group storyline was only a fear tactic or a distraction used to force the amendment and the creation of more executive orders to use against the cryptospace.



OFAC sanctioned the Lazarus Group on September 13, 2019, pursuant to Executive Order (E.O.) 13722, and identified it as an agency, instrumentality, or controlled entity of the Government of North Korea. The Lazarus Group has operated for more than 10 years and is believed to have stolen over $2 billion worth of digital assets across multiple thefts. Due to the pressure of robust U.S. and United Nations sanctions, the DPRK has resorted to using illicit tactics, such as cyber-enabled heists perpetrated by the Lazarus Group, to generate revenue for its unlawful weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missile programs.

Semenov is being designated pursuant to E.O. 13694, as amended by E.O. 13757, for having materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, or technological support for, or goods or services to or in support of, any activity described in subsections (a)(ii) or (a)(iii)(A) of E.O. 13694, as amended, or any person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to E.O. 13694, as amended; and pursuant to E.O. 13722 for having materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial, material, or technological support for, or goods or services to or in support of, the Government of North Korea, a person whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to E.O. 13722.


Source https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/jy1702
legendary
Activity: 2212
Merit: 7064
This doesn't just apply to mixers, but to everything that is pushed in the name of "AML". They'll go after mixers, after peer to peer trades, after DEXs, after the stupidly named "self hosted" wallets (which just means holding your own keys), after any and all services which don't collect KYC data.
I think they even have plans to expand AML crap to social media and to the whole internet, just look what that fool Elon Musk is doing with twitter aka X, wanting to turn it up into all-in-one app and add KYC verification  Tongue
If people comply with all this upcoming crazy stuff than they can say goodbye to any freedom in their life, but everything will be masked for their ''safety''.
New laws are applied in Europe and maybe we are going to see crazy autumn on social media (and in forums) this year, so better watch out what you write in public.
What's next? Thought Police maybe?  Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 1568
Merit: 6660
bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Im not sure what would others say about using mixers. Yes its for usign crypto for privacy, but we cant deny the fact that aside from this particular reason. Scammers arw gonna use it tp hide their scent or crime by using mixers. Cant blame the DOJ on this one. So other mixers might be in trouble too. In relation tok this big case being done on Tornado.

Even new or small mixers might get in trouble too as for sure scammers are already using those. Does owners of mixers can ban wallets or known scammers address for usage? Maybe this can help to make them free from charges like this and avoid incident like what happened to the Tornado founders.
One man sin does not affect the other man or his neighbor. Everyone carry their load. When CM management was found guilty of his crime other mixers were not affect. Criminality is not only found in mixers but all spare of life. One thing that caused criminality in this companies are greedy and corruption. And mixer management that is not greedy and not corrupt that mixing company is good. And that doesn't mean that criminals will not come and use the mixer again, they must surely use it but it the hands of the MD is clean then there is nothing to fear. We should blame other mixers because one mixer is found guilty. Mixers are own by human and not all humans are bad. Everyone carry their own cross.

Bad actors will abuse any service or industry they can find to accomplish their own agenda. But most people in positions of power and governments are too gullible to believe in any other resolution than the immediate destruction of any service that is not controlled by some regulated entity.

It's classic "more power to the few, at the expense of the many" event.
legendary
Activity: 1022
Merit: 1341

Im not sure what would others say about using mixers. Yes its for usign crypto for privacy, but we cant deny the fact that aside from this particular reason. Scammers arw gonna use it tp hide their scent or crime by using mixers. Cant blame the DOJ on this one. So other mixers might be in trouble too. In relation tok this big case being done on Tornado.

Even new or small mixers might get in trouble too as for sure scammers are already using those. Does owners of mixers can ban wallets or known scammers address for usage? Maybe this can help to make them free from charges like this and avoid incident like what happened to the Tornado founders.
One man sin does not affect the other man or his neighbor. Everyone carry their load. When CM management was found guilty of his crime other mixers were not affect. Criminality is not only found in mixers but all spare of life. One thing that caused criminality in this companies are greedy and corruption. And mixer management that is not greedy and not corrupt that mixing company is good. And that doesn't mean that criminals will not come and use the mixer again, they must surely use it but it the hands of the MD is clean then there is nothing to fear. We should blame other mixers because one mixer is found guilty. Mixers are own by human and not all humans are bad. Everyone carry their own cross.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18711
Stumbled across this post on Reddit, where the OP nicely expresses the same sentiments I expressed earlier in this thread:

The so-called "anti-money laundering" movement that pushed for this indictment is a fascist mass-surveillance ideology wrapped up in euphemisms. It's reminiscient of the surveillance state ideology espoused by the CCP in China.

This doesn't just apply to mixers, but to everything that is pushed in the name of "AML". They'll go after mixers, after peer to peer trades, after DEXs, after the stupidly named "self hosted" wallets (which just means holding your own keys), after any and all services which don't collect KYC data. They can't stand a form of money which they do not have absolute control over. It weakness their control, weakness their grip on your life. Their ultimate goal is that all bitcoin is bought and paid for only on regulated KYC platforms, and it never leaves those regulated KYC platforms. The only thing you will be allowed to do with it is send it from one regulated KYC platform to another, using a list which they will create of "approved" platforms. Owning your own keys won't be allowed. Making your own transactions won't be allowed.

Unless people stop acquiescing to the ever more intense and invasive demands of centralized exchanges, then this is the future we are sleep walking in to.
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