Tornado cash founders charged with money laundering/sanctions violations - page 3.

yhiaali3

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I don't know why this accident reminds me of a stupid law here in my country. The law says (with what it means) that if someone falls from the top of a balcony onto a car that was parked below in the street, the owner of the car is considered the cause of death and he will be charged and imprisoned for trial.

This is not a joke, it's a law that already exists here, can you believe this? What is the relationship of the owner of the car? This person was going to die anyway whether there was a car on the street or not?

My point of this is the ability of governments to invent wondrous laws that suit them perfectly and facilitate reaching their goals, regardless of whether these laws seem reasonable or not. So, is it possible for a person to use the mixer to launder money, and then the government arrests the mixer because it was unable to arrest this person? Long live intelligence. Huh

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 25, 2023, 10:48:18 PM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 25, 2023, 09:47:06 PM

Yes, it is their job. We are not questioning this. We are questioning if it was right for the government to imprison people who had no connection to the crimes that are happening through the software that they only created.

I assume the developer got arrested but that doesnt mean he was already imprisoned. I believe he is just investigated as per protocols and probably out by now. We know how things work, since they dont have a conclusive proof of allegations made.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 25, 2023, 09:47:06 PM

But the cryptospace is giving some of this power back to the people. The government does not want this.

Did I say I didnt believe that? I am here on forum and of course also a fan of decentralized approach but we live mixed up with the Government isnt it? there are protocols that we should also followed as part of being its citizen. Im just in the middle.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 25, 2023, 09:47:06 PM

In any case, if you want the government to control the whole cryptospace so that criminals cannot use it then we should demand for more centralization of our favorite projects and demand for more invasive regulations.

The hell I can be control by them. Not even work for the government eversince why I let them control me? Surely they acted like that due to the incidents happening on crypto. If theres no hack then surely they will shut their freakin mouth. The problem here is the composition of Government which mixed up with the sharks who wanted power.

The government has no right to arrest anyone who did not do any crime. This is a violation of basic human rights.

Yes, we are in the middle and sometimes we cannot do anything, however, what we should have is critical thinking. This is another thing that the owners of the world do not want, people who are thinking and talking about how they are being scammed and fooled by the government and by the corporations.

Also, we are always being controlled and being manipulated by them. They tell us what to buy, what to think, how to act, what our politics should be, everything in our lives is based on everything that they have built, own and control.

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Quote from: hugeblack on August 27, 2023, 10:00:16 AM

Quote from: DaveF on August 27, 2023, 09:08:11 AM

Off-topic: I have always wondered why your name is written at the end of each reply. Was the account managed by more than one user? Or is there a story behind it?

Quote from: DaveF on August 27, 2023, 09:08:11 AM

-Dave

Can't speak for anyone else who does it but I do it because I'm old and nerdy and have been online for over 40 years. Back before the internet, back before dialing into services like AOL back before a lot.... You had places like CompuServe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompuServe And BBSs that you dialed directly into:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system

With CompuServe your ID was a 5 digit number a comma and a 3 digit number like this 12345,123
Many (most?) of the early BBSs your ID was your user number so here I would not be DaveF but #300014

So many of us just got in the habit of putting -YourName the end so people knew who you were.
Four decades later, it's just pure habit.

-Dave

hugeblack

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Quote from: DaveF on August 27, 2023, 09:08:11 AM

Did you read the link in the 1st post?
-Dave

I explored sources directly, which did not contain the reason for the accusation, but the above text is quoted from a different source, which is^[1].

I do not think that the problem is running a mixing service or helping others hide their identity, but it is related to North Korea. It seems that the developer has a connection with an active group from North Korea that launders money for the government, so you find the charges include money laundering, and violating sanctions, which are OFAC sanctions.

It is also noted that there are accusations vs signatures that they wear that they are also a front for that North Korean group.

Generally, let's see how he will defend himself and whether these accusations are true, but it is better for privacy services developers to keep themselves anonymous.

Quote from: DaveF on August 27, 2023, 09:08:11 AM

-Dave

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Quote from: hugeblack on August 26, 2023, 03:30:22 PM

Does anyone know the reason for the arrest? Because as far as I know, the operation of the mixer is not of interest, and money laundering is often linked to financial services that are provided without verifying identity, but in the case of the mixer, they do not deal in US dollars, so it is most likely that the reason is related to something else.

I'll read the details of what's going on but maybe this arrest explains why the recent bitcoin mixing service ~~went missing~~ scamming. Grin

Did you read the link in the 1st post?

Quote

In a Wednesday indictment, the feds alleged that Roman Storm and Roman Semenov laundered more than $1 billion in criminal proceeds, and charged them with conspiracy to commit money laundering, sanctions violations, and conspiracy to operate an unlicensed money-transmitting business.

The conspiracy charge as a rule TENDS TO but not always show that they knew what they were taking and moving from people / organizations they KNEW they were not supposed to.

If you buy something on craigslist that is stolen you can be charged with receiving stolen property. You did not have to know it was stolen. And usually you have to have some other fuckups for the government to really go after you. If you an a regular basis buy things from someone on craigslist for 10% of the value that still has store security tags on it. Then they will probably charge you with the conspiracy to receive stolen property.

-Dave

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Does anyone know the reason for the arrest? Because as far as I know, the operation of the mixer is not of interest, and money laundering is often linked to financial services that are provided without verifying identity, but in the case of the mixer, they do not deal in US dollars, so it is most likely that the reason is related to something else.

I'll read the details of what's going on but maybe this arrest explains why the recent bitcoin mixing service ~~went missing~~ scamming. Grin

DaveF

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What it comes down to is what the developers knew and when they knew it.

IF and this is an IF. The government can prove that they knew that the Lazarus people were running money through their service then it's a different story then if the Lazarus people happened to use their service.

Did the government find or have an email / SMS / whatever discussion between them? That is a lot more damning then having an address on a list of 'known bad addresses' Was there communication between the developers that the government has that has them discussing that possibly they should not allow these addresses though the service, but they decided to let them so they could make their cut of the mixing. Both of these things are a lot worse then their service being used to move the money because 'it was there'

We don't know, what we don't know and all we can do here is speculate.

-Dave

cryptoaddictchie

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 25, 2023, 09:47:06 PM

Yes, it is their job. We are not questioning this. We are questioning if it was right for the government to imprison people who had no connection to the crimes that are happening through the software that they only created.

I assume the developer got arrested but that doesnt mean he was already imprisoned. I believe he is just investigated as per protocols and probably out by now. We know how things work, since they dont have a conclusive proof of allegations made.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 25, 2023, 09:47:06 PM

But the cryptospace is giving some of this power back to the people. The government does not want this.

Did I say I didnt believe that? I am here on forum and of course also a fan of decentralized approach but we live mixed up with the Government isnt it? there are protocols that we should also followed as part of being its citizen. Im just in the middle.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 25, 2023, 09:47:06 PM

In any case, if you want the government to control the whole cryptospace so that criminals cannot use it then we should demand for more centralization of our favorite projects and demand for more invasive regulations.

The hell I can be control by them. Not even work for the government eversince why I let them control me? Surely they acted like that due to the incidents happening on crypto. If theres no hack then surely they will shut their freakin mouth. The problem here is the composition of Government which mixed up with the sharks who wanted power.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 25, 2023, 02:50:45 PM

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 25, 2023, 08:50:30 AM

Don't be fooled for a second in to thinking this is anything other than the government trying to control you. The government are absolutely fine with trillions of dollars being laundered when it's their buddies in the fiat system who are doing it. But they will use any excuse to crack down on tools and services which prevent them from spying on and controlling their populace.

Yes I know this pretty well but whose job it is to nullified these kind of activity on their part? Still its the Government and how this things could turn? If everybody used decentralized approach isnt it. But when this gonna occur? A massive boycott on Government does it ever happened before? Anyone who tried to defy are being comprehended accordingly. The truth hurts I know. If there is someone could change that without being fearful and got supports(literally do it not by words but action) I be willing to follow him.

Crypto is being destroyed slowly they know its threat thats why this kind things happened. So they are showcasing their powers now until it can be stopped yet. Damn rough world.

Yes, it is their job. We are not questioning this. We are questioning if it was right for the government to imprison people who had no connection to the crimes that are happening through the software that they only created.

Also, how is crypto being destroyed? Is it you reckon because criminals use it? Is the car industy or the cellphone industry being destroyed because criminals use them also? These are neutral tools. The government only wants more control over you. They do not care about you, they only care about money and power and they want more for themselves and less for you. This is the reality. But the cryptospace is giving some of this power back to the people. The government does not want this.

In any case, if you want the government to control the whole cryptospace so that criminals cannot use it then we should demand for more centralization of our favorite projects and demand for more invasive regulations.

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Quote from: bitmover on August 24, 2023, 04:56:38 PM

I was recently thinking about this. Not all mixers are getting banned and shut down, and not all developers are getting arrested either.
Gmaxwell created coinjoin and AFAIK he is not having legal problems.

Not yet, it always happens when an exchange was hacked and some analysis reports happens^[1][2] that the hacked funds were mix on some specific mixers, then authorities will find its way to crack and find those responsible later on.

[1] https://www.coindesk.com/business/2022/09/09/cash-from-2021-dao-maker-crypto-hack-being-mixed-through-tornado-cash/
[2] https://cointelegraph.com/news/binance-hackers-bombard-chipmixer-to-launder-at-least-4-836-btc

cryptoaddictchie

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 25, 2023, 08:50:30 AM

Don't be fooled for a second in to thinking this is anything other than the government trying to control you. The government are absolutely fine with trillions of dollars being laundered when it's their buddies in the fiat system who are doing it. But they will use any excuse to crack down on tools and services which prevent them from spying on and controlling their populace.

Yes I know this pretty well but whose job it is to nullified these kind of activity on their part? Still its the Government and how this things could turn? If everybody used decentralized approach isnt it. But when this gonna occur? A massive boycott on Government does it ever happened before? Anyone who tried to defy are being comprehended accordingly. The truth hurts I know. If there is someone could change that without being fearful and got supports(literally do it not by words but action) I be willing to follow him.

Crypto is being destroyed slowly they know its threat thats why this kind things happened. So they are showcasing their powers now until it can be stopped yet. Damn rough world.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: bitmover on August 24, 2023, 04:56:38 PM

The accusation said that they "knowingly allowed" money laundering.

Which is just as equally bullshit. Banks not only "knowingly allow" money laundering, but indeed actively assist and perform money laundering, and make huge profits from doing so. Open source code developers get arrested, where as these fiat banks get a slap on the wrist and a fine which equates to a tiny fraction of the profits they make from laundering said money, and is less than a single day of their profits.

Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 24, 2023, 11:11:26 PM

Im just reading the articles, and knowing the Government you think they sit and do nothing about it especially a $7billion fund was stolen and process somewhere.

$7 billion is absolutely nothing. Danske bank laundered $230 billion in Estonia. Wachovia bank laundered $390 billion for drug cartels. Standard Chartered laundered $265 billion for Iran. Fiat banks collectively launder trillions of dollars. Has a single bank CEO been arrested?

Don't be fooled for a second in to thinking this is anything other than the government trying to control you. The government are absolutely fine with trillions of dollars being laundered when it's their buddies in the fiat system who are doing it. But they will use any excuse to crack down on tools and services which prevent them from spying on and controlling their populace.

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 24, 2023, 08:50:05 PM

However, how can you have an attitude that you cannot blame the DOJ on this one. Similar to what some people have said already, Tornanado Cash is a neutral tool and very much like all neutral tools, it can be used by bad people. It does not make the people who created them criminals.

My bad for saying that didnt mean to offend anyone but maybe the developer who got allegledy arrested (who created the tool wasnt just created it but explicitly knew or allowed the mixing of more than $7billion fund from hackers). Im sure those authorities do a solid investigation on this one and not blindly arrested anyone without a firm evidence cause that might be injustice. Im just reading the articles, and knowing the Government you think they sit and do nothing about it especially a $7billion fund was stolen and process somewhere. Surely the guy will be investigated and interrogated but if his clear he will be out right away. Im just saying that Government constantly doing the arrest thing as usual to pick up dust of info to have lead to those real criminals. Sorry for the developer cause he needed to experience this kind of norm which we knew happenign everywhere.

Maybe they arent perfect and bias all the time but someone will take action for that. Just like @bitmover said the team not just created the software but probably "knowingly allowed" anyways just my point of view on this that there must be a reason for this. Its not like I favored to the Government respond at all.

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Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 23, 2023, 08:46:55 PM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 23, 2023, 08:38:08 PM

My apologies, however, the type of attitude similar to your reply should never be accepted in the cryptospace. Is wanting more privacy really a crime?

I didnt say its a crime dude. Everyone wanted their privacy remains and anonymity. But the case on mxiers they are being mix with those scammers and taking advantage of that. Im not sure if you are aware how government works. They will literally do anything to fight scams and incident like especially we dont havee specific regulations on something like this.

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 23, 2023, 08:38:08 PM

Using your argument, does the government have the right to indict all of the Monero developers only because they developed a cryptocoin for more anonymity?

Im referring to the scams activity being done on the platform. Monero didnt do any? Why would they do that.

However, how can you have an attitude that you cannot blame the DOJ on this one. Similar to what some people have said already, Tornanado Cash is a neutral tool and very much like all neutral tools, it can be used by bad people. It does not make the people who created them criminals.

Smartphones are used for many crimes by many criminals, does it make the creator of the software and the hardware of the smartphone involved in those crimes? What the DOJ did was really make a bad precendent.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 24, 2023, 08:47:08 AM

Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 23, 2023, 10:21:28 PM

However mixers attract those money laundering due tho this concept as I explained earlier and since it is decentralized, even mixers are dragged to it.

Encryption attracts criminals since they can hide their communications. That doesn't mean the government should be able to read all your emails and private messages. The internet attracts scammers since they can use it to target their victims. That doesn't mean we should ban the internet. What about phones? Scammers use phones all the time! Better ban those too!

Making such things illegal or attempting to shut them down does not stop scammers or other criminals from using them, it only criminalizes the average Joe who uses them just because he doesn't want his government spying on his entire life. Not to mention that all the evidence we have shows that a tiny portion of coins being mixed are linked to illegal activity, just as a tiny portion of all internet traffic is linked to illegal activity.

I agree 100% o_e_l_e_o

I was recently thinking about this. Not all mixers are getting banned and shut down, and not all developers are getting arrested either.
Gmaxwell created coinjoin and AFAIK he is not having legal problems.

This might be the case tornado cash team did something more than just crrating the software. The accusation said that they "knowingly
allowed" money laundering.

Quote

“As stated in the indictment, the defendants’ cryptocurrency service facilitated more than $1 billion in illicit transactions and they knowingly allowed a globally sanctioned cybercrime group to launder hundreds of millions of dollars on behalf of the North Korean regime,” said Assistant Attorney General Matthew G. Olsen of the Justice Department’s National Security Division.

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Quote from: mk4 on August 24, 2023, 01:20:55 PM

GMX, Gains, dYdX, Hyperliquid, Level Finance, MUX, Kwenta, Perpetual Protocol, — the list of available options are HUGE. And I've used most of these DEXs without any problem at all; you just need to pick depending on available coins/tokens and available liquidity.

Thanks for the suggestions, Ive been using some of these too especially dydx. But in the end I still used or send funds Ive gained on this through a trusted p2p service for me which is Binance p2p to cash out directly to our remittance and become php(currency). We cant do this easily being an anon here or somewhere out there especially without any trust and its not that easily to say avoid cex, Atleast for me. ( Ive bet Im not the only one using Binance p2p here Im pretty sure of that)

Maybe for some other guys here they can and manage to do that without relying on cex conveniently then props to them.

Actually maybe thats a good point, maybe we can survey whose users here dont have binance or zero cex account online and how they manage efficiently to trade p2p their tokens or coins for fiat. I'll be delighted to hear how they do that and even get some tips.

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Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 24, 2023, 09:52:09 AM

I am also trading altcoins which cant be done via peer to peer using an easy and convenient sell order or stop loss options, so Im really using cex for that matter.

Just a heads up: A crap ton of decent DEXs had this feature for a good while now.

GMX, Gains, dYdX, Hyperliquid, Level Finance, MUX, Kwenta, Perpetual Protocol, — the list of available options are HUGE. And I've used most of these DEXs without any problem at all; you just need to pick depending on available coins/tokens and available liquidity.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on August 24, 2023, 08:47:08 AM

Stop acquiescing to your government's ever more ridiculous demands. When it comes to bitcoin - refuse to be spied on. Refuse to complete KYC. Refuse to let them monitor all your activities via centralized exchanges. Run your own node. Trade peer to peer. Mix/coinjoin freely. Spend bitcoin directly with appropriate merchants. Opt out of their global surveillance. Encourage others to do the same.

I wanted too but its kinda hard to do p2p manually which I could get fiat easily. I am also trading altcoins which cant be done via peer to peer using an easy and convenient sell order or stop loss options, so Im really using cex for that matter. Its not like I like the KYC system, but since its required for that especially when doing p2p which is totally direct to our local remittance easily, I dont have much choice. I rarely find p2p for our local that can be transact that easily when I needed the funds immediately. I think mostly here on forum I bet, are using binance p2p even on our locals.

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Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 23, 2023, 10:21:28 PM

However mixers attract those money laundering due tho this concept as I explained earlier and since it is decentralized, even mixers are dragged to it.

Encryption attracts criminals since they can hide their communications. That doesn't mean the government should be able to read all your emails and private messages. The internet attracts scammers since they can use it to target their victims. That doesn't mean we should ban the internet. What about phones? Scammers use phones all the time! Better ban those too!

Making such things illegal or attempting to shut them down does not stop scammers or other criminals from using them, it only criminalizes the average Joe who uses them just because he doesn't want his government spying on his entire life. Not to mention that all the evidence we have shows that a tiny portion of coins being mixed are linked to illegal activity, just as a tiny portion of all internet traffic is linked to illegal activity.

Quote from: cryptoaddictchie on August 23, 2023, 10:21:28 PM

Yeah kinda get you mate but the question is how can we change that.

Stop acquiescing to your government's ever more ridiculous demands. When it comes to bitcoin - refuse to be spied on. Refuse to complete KYC. Refuse to let them monitor all your activities via centralized exchanges. Run your own node. Trade peer to peer. Mix/coinjoin freely. Spend bitcoin directly with appropriate merchants. Opt out of their global surveillance. Encourage others to do the same.

mk4

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Tornado Cash, mixers, and coinjoin software are tools — and tools in general will be used both for good purposes and bad purposes.

I guess we should also arrest Bill Gates and whoever founded AndroidOS because money launderers are using their software for illegal purposes. And while we're at it, let's criminalize who invented the hammer and wrench because their inventions are being used to mug people.

Topic: Tornado cash founders charged with money laundering/sanctions violations - page 3. (Read 1106 times)