Tornado Cash mixing service is now blacklisted in US - page 2.

DaveF

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Quote from: fillippone on August 15, 2022, 05:17:49 AM

Random piece of news stating the guy was arrested not as a TC developer but because he was actively involved in cash recycling.
Not that this changes much in the situation, but it is only a bit less worrying as he wasn't arrested for only writing code.

Do you have a link to it? I was thinking that something along those lines was what happened.

Although not 100% the same it goes to the automotive world of emission control defeating devices. They are 100% legal to buy / sell / own / design / build and so on. You just cannot use them on any car that is run on public roads.

I see a lot more of this happening over time since a lot, could even be most or all of code that does mixing is open source. It's pointless to even bother with the developers. You go after the people running it and making money from it.

-Dave

bitmover

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Quote from: Eternad on August 15, 2022, 05:28:11 AM

So it means that a group of whales can attack a certain wallet that holds huge fund on a DeFi by sending tainted tokens coming from Tornado cash.

Tokens are not fungible , like eth and btc.

Tokens can be freeze by the central authority which created them (if specified in the contract, which usually is for stablecoins)

If the Tokens are really "tainted", they are probably already frozen. If not they are still worth money

Eternad

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So it means that a group of whales can attack a certain wallet that holds huge fund on a DeFi by sending tainted tokens coming from Tornado cash. I saw a random post on twitter about this kind of scenario. I was wondering how will DeFi handle this kind of attack to major wallet that has investment with them. Grin

fillippone

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Random piece of news stating the guy was arrested not as a TC developer but because he was actively involved in cash recycling.
Not that this changes much in the situation, but it is only a bit less worrying as he wasn't arrested for only writing code.

u80huc

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States is revolting parasites.
Now they show their true colours.

If money is not fungible, then it implies that you need state's permission to use money, i.e, act as a human being. Therefore, its not your money.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: Darker45 on August 13, 2022, 04:47:51 AM

An unfortunate update: A 29-year old man who was suspected to be a developer of Tornado Cash was arrested and detained in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. This followed after the US Treasury Department blacklisted the Ethereum mixer for being used for money laundering.

This is worrisome because the man, assuming he's indeed the developer of Tornado Cash, was just writing codes, codes that are never meant to help criminals. It was for privacy's sake. Privacy is a right. If his open source code was utilized by evil entities for evil purposes, is it his fault? Is he a criminal simply because somebody else took advantage of his neutral codes?

This is unfair and illogical. This line of reasoning would have the creators of the internet, browsers, smart phones, and even knives, slippers, pillows, packaging tapes, freezers, and other neutral tools arrested for having their inventions used in crimes.

Source:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/12/dutch-detain-suspected-developer-of-crypto-mixer-tornado-cash.html

We have witnessed the founders of Celsius and Voyager scam their users and they are not arrested. They might have also made much money. Similar situation with other founders like Luna founder Do Kwon or Spell founder Sifu. However, a developer for a dapp that protects privacy is in prison.

@ETFbitcoin. It was cleary a question for the purpose of supporting the argument only hehehehe.

Also, on the 1990s case, was it in America? Was it also when it was declared that code is speech and also protected by the first amendment?

Darker45

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An unfortunate update: A 29-year old man who was suspected to be a developer of Tornado Cash was arrested and detained in Amsterdam in the Netherlands. This followed after the US Treasury Department blacklisted the Ethereum mixer for being used for money laundering.

This is worrisome because the man, assuming he's indeed the developer of Tornado Cash, was just writing codes, codes that are never meant to help criminals. It was for privacy's sake. Privacy is a right. If his open source code was utilized by evil entities for evil purposes, is it his fault? Is he a criminal simply because somebody else took advantage of his neutral codes?

This is unfair and illogical. This line of reasoning would have the creators of the internet, browsers, smart phones, and even knives, slippers, pillows, packaging tapes, freezers, and other neutral tools arrested for having their inventions used in crimes.

Source:
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/08/12/dutch-detain-suspected-developer-of-crypto-mixer-tornado-cash.html

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: bitmover on August 12, 2022, 02:35:38 PM

Quote from: fillippone on August 12, 2022, 09:41:17 AM

The reason for this is exactly what you can guess: they have arrested him because of this involvement in Tornado Cash development.

A good read here:
U.S. Treasury sanction of privacy tools places sweeping restrictions on all Americans

This is dangerous nonsense.

Something like "illegal code"

This is a dangerous territory, and I believe in future we may see regulations over cryptography, saying what someone may code and what nobody can code.

Agreed. This might be something similar to an attack vs. free speech.

This is clearly head shaking. The government's argument for the sanction is because many criminals use Tornado Cash which is not enough as valid argument because there are many things in this world that normal people use, are also used by criminals. Should the DOJ ban cars also?

malcovi2

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https://techcrunch.com/2022/08/12/suspected-tornado-cash-developer-arrested-in-amsterdam/

EU and US governments working hard to take down such services, probably they will target next are the privacy coins.

*
anyways im going to short TORN now.

fillippone

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Quote from: Daltonik on August 12, 2022, 02:03:30 PM

The mixer channels continue to disappear, the Discord channel was deleted along with the Tornado Cash management forum, the mixer website is not available, the twitter account has not yet been deleted, the telegram channel is also online, but it seems that it is a matter of time.

https://www.theblock.co/post/163228/tornado-cashs-discord-server-and-governance-forum-shuttered-amid-arrest

This is what I fear going forward.
I bet there is a big bunch of people in thinking “nothing to hide, nothing to fear”.
This nonsense and dangerous uncharted territory.

It’s time to bring up again a very important guide on why privacy is an incredibly valuable asset to preserve

A Treatise on Bitcoin and Privacy

TryNinja

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

ERC20 is JUNK, anyone can create one and make whatever rules they want.
You didn't inspect code of every token and you can't be sure what tokens can be frozen, but most stable coins can be frozen.

This is called liberty to create and deploy whatever contract anyone wants, with whatever code anyone wants.

But no, ERC20 is not limited to "stable coins" or to include blacklisting-related functions, so whatever you're saying here is just wrong. Tongue

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

And USDT and probably more tokens, that means that anyone will try to swap other shit ERC20 to stable coins if they want to cash out.

So "ERC20 is centralized" because you think most people need to swap to USDT to cash out? Huh

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

One more ''nice'' example how Curve tokens can be frozen from fake defi hack:
https://cointelegraph.com/news/binance-recovers-the-majority-of-funds-stolen-from-curve-finance

Yes, stablecoins, like we both already said. Not "Curve tokens".

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

Quote from: TryNinja on August 11, 2022, 02:49:57 PM

3. Saying that "ERC20 tokens" are centralized because USDC can be frozen is plain wrong.

No it's not.

It literally is.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

If USDC can be frozen than anything can be frozen ...

Literally false.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

..., and honestly I don't care at all about other ERC20.

That's you. Doesn't change the fact that ERC20, by default, can't be frozen. And most ERC20 tokens DO NOT include the function to freeze (blacklist) addresses.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

I am sure that fake Bitcoin on ERC20 can also be frozen and it is centralized....prove me wrong.

What is "fake Bitcoin on ERC20"?

WBTC = custodied by BitGo. Can't be frozen on the contract level, but they can decline to convert your WBTC to BTC.
renBTC = AFAIK, can't be frozen and is custodied by REN nodes.

Quote from: dkbit98 on August 12, 2022, 11:27:37 AM

Dude common...do your own research.
If you think that ethereum and all it's tokens are decentralized with all nodes running on VPS, than you don't understand what decentralization is.
I mean if you enjoy using this crap, go for it, it's just my own opinion based on facts.

Honestly, the fact that you are claiming "Ethereum token are not really decentralized" without much evidence shows that you should do your own research. This sounds like the typical "muh ETH is bad" mumble jumble. I don't even own any ERC20, but this is just lazy thinking.

bitmover

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Quote from: fillippone on August 12, 2022, 09:41:17 AM

The reason for this is exactly what you can guess: they have arrested him because of this involvement in Tornado Cash development.

A good read here:
U.S. Treasury sanction of privacy tools places sweeping restrictions on all Americans

This is dangerous nonsense.

Something like "illegal code"

This is a dangerous territory, and I believe in future we may see regulations over cryptography, saying what someone may code and what nobody can code.

Daltonik

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The mixer channels continue to disappear, the Discord channel was deleted along with the Tornado Cash management forum, the mixer website is not available, the twitter account has not yet been deleted, the telegram channel is also online, but it seems that it is a matter of time.

https://www.theblock.co/post/163228/tornado-cashs-discord-server-and-governance-forum-shuttered-amid-arrest

stompix

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Quote from: fillippone on August 12, 2022, 09:41:17 AM

A good read here:
U.S. Treasury sanction of privacy tools places sweeping restrictions on all Americans
This is dangerous nonsense.

Quote

Sanctioned Tornado Cash smart contract is a tool, not a person.

Yeah, good luck convincing the guys with the handcuffs and the guns about this as it seems they don't give a damn.

I always tried to tell people they should be really waking up and just because they are defining for their own what is financial transactions, what is copyright, what is code, and what is anything else, it kind of stops being important when the other guys that don't agree with you have all the power. Just like the $5 wrench attack vs the sha256 encryption meme, there is a really dangerous reality we might face, and hiding behind definitions won't save you when the others have their own.

But the biggest danger is that I can see how this is going to end, some will become enraged, some will scream, some will thread with x and z and one month later nobody will care till the next guy is getting thrown in jail.
Also, speaking of nonsense, I just saw this tweet:

dkbit98

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Quote from: TryNinja on August 11, 2022, 02:49:57 PM

1. ERC20 is a pattern, which does NOT include the ability to freeze tokens or "a central authority".

ERC20 is JUNK, anyone can create one and make whatever rules they want.
You didn't inspect code of every token and you can't be sure what tokens can be frozen, but most stable coins can be frozen.

Quote from: TryNinja on August 11, 2022, 02:49:57 PM

2. ERC20 tokens CAN be frozen IF the contract includes the necessary functions, which is only the case for a few tokens (such as USDC).

And USDT and probably more tokens, that means that anyone will try to swap other shit ERC20 to stable coins if they want to cash out.
Look
One more ''nice'' example how Curve tokens can be frozen from fake defi hack:
https://cointelegraph.com/news/binance-recovers-the-majority-of-funds-stolen-from-curve-finance

Quote from: TryNinja on August 11, 2022, 02:49:57 PM

3. Saying that "ERC20 tokens" are centralized because USDC can be frozen is plain wrong.

No it's not.
If USDC can be frozen than anything can be frozen, and honestly I don't care at all about other ERC20.
I am sure that fake Bitcoin on ERC20 can also be frozen and it is centralized....prove me wrong.

Quote from: TryNinja on August 11, 2022, 02:49:57 PM

4. ETH migrating to PoS is a different discussion. It didn't happen yet, so why are ERC20 centralized and how?

Dude common...do your own research.
If you think that ethereum and all it's tokens are decentralized with all nodes running on VPS, than you don't understand what decentralization is.
I mean if you enjoy using this crap, go for it, it's just my own opinion based on facts.

fillippone

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Quote from: OmegaStarScream on August 12, 2022, 08:41:46 AM

Apparently, one of the developers just got arrested in the Netherlands: https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/08/12/netherlands-arrests-suspected-tornado-cash-developer/

The article doesn't say much so I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing this has nothing to do with him writing code?

The reason for this is exactly what you can guess: they have arrested him because of this involvement in Tornado Cash development.

A good read here:
U.S. Treasury sanction of privacy tools places sweeping restrictions on all Americans

This is dangerous nonsense.

OmegaStarScream

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Apparently, one of the developers just got arrested in the Netherlands: https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2022/08/12/netherlands-arrests-suspected-tornado-cash-developer/

The article doesn't say much so I could be wrong here, but I'm guessing this has nothing to do with him writing code?

bbc.reporter

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There might be something users can do to make this more difficult for the government to enforce. There was someone in social media who suggested that you can use renBTC to bridge your coins from Tornado into the bitcoin blockchain and trade to Monero then back to Ethereum from there hehehehe.

Developers can fork Tornado Cash with new contracts and new public addresses.

TryNinja

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Quote from: dkbit98 on August 11, 2022, 08:26:05 AM

Do you think ethereum tokens are really decentralized?
How then it is possible to freeze tokens like USDC by some central authority, and make them unusable?
To add the fact that ethereum is switching to PoS that is totally centralized, they already reversed blockchain, almost nobody runs ethereum full nodes, and most wallets use Infura that is blacklisting transactions, etc.
Seems very centralized to me, but don't worry here comes CZ and Justin Sun to the rescue supporting new ''revolutionary'' shitcoin fork ETHW Wink

You are mixing stuff here.

1. ERC20 is a pattern, which does NOT include the ability to freeze tokens or "a central authority".
2. ERC20 tokens CAN be frozen IF the contract includes the necessary functions, which is only the case for a few tokens (such as USDC).
3. Saying that "ERC20 tokens" are centralized because USDC can be frozen is plain wrong.
4. ETH migrating to PoS is a different discussion. It didn't happen yet, so why are ERC20 centralized and how?

Quote from: Despairo on August 11, 2022, 09:48:27 AM

1. AFAIK they don't have an onion address, this mean the users is using a bad privacy browsers that wouldn't protect their privacy for completely 100%.

They do.

Quote from: Despairo on August 11, 2022, 09:48:27 AM

2. If U.S. can know the tokens are come from tornado cash, this mean there must a be a vulnerability

This is false. All tokens are stored in a pool (smart contract), which is how they can say "all tokens in this central address are sanctioned".

Quote from: Despairo on August 11, 2022, 09:48:27 AM

3. Why did tornado cash reveal their smart contract to public? 0x722122dF12D4e14e13Ac3b6895a86e84145b6967

Why wouldn't they? Do you think users should just trust an unverified contract? Are you aware that by using an unverified contract, you are just trusting the deployer who could have added a backdoor function to siphon funds?

Quote from: Despairo on August 11, 2022, 09:48:27 AM

4. Although this talk about Bitcoin mixing services I believe tornado cash wouldn't have better mixing technique than the Bitcoin mixing, I've read if a poor mixer will leave a trace about "pattern transaction" that can be easy to distinguish between exchange transaction and mixing transaction.

This is irrelevant. Otherwise, one could also say ChipMixer is bad because you can easily distinguish their chips from "regular" transactions.

Despairo

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Quote from: TryNinja on August 09, 2022, 10:54:05 PM

They can't. Dude is clueless saying that "ERC20 tokens are centralized".

When you deposit into Tornado.cash, it generates you a private note (like a private key enabling these funds to be withdrawn later). You just use the private note to withdraw with a different address. No one can see which address was responsible for depositing the amount you took out later.

I admit I don't know how tornado cash work since I never use it and there's no reason I need to use since I don't believe not reputable mixer.

But I don't think I'm clueless by saying that's part, now what's your opinion about those thing below that raise my concern about tornado cash.

1. AFAIK they don't have an onion address, this mean the users is using a bad privacy browsers that wouldn't protect their privacy for completely 100%.
2. If U.S. can know the tokens are come from tornado cash, this mean there must a be a vulnerability or a thing has been founded by a crypto analysis.
3. Why did tornado cash reveal their smart contract to public? 0x722122dF12D4e14e13Ac3b6895a86e84145b6967
4. Although this talk about Bitcoin mixing services I believe tornado cash wouldn't have better mixing technique than the Bitcoin mixing, I've read if a poor mixer will leave a trace about "pattern transaction" that can be easy to distinguish between exchange transaction and mixing transaction.

Topic: Tornado Cash mixing service is now blacklisted in US - page 2. (Read 850 times)