Tornado Cash mixing service is now blacklisted in US - page 3.

dkbit98

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Quote from: TryNinja on August 09, 2022, 10:54:05 PM

They can't. Dude is clueless saying that "ERC20 tokens are centralized".

Do you think ethereum tokens are really decentralized?
How then it is possible to freeze tokens like USDC by some central authority, and make them unusable?
To add the fact that ethereum is switching to PoS that is totally centralized, they already reversed blockchain, almost nobody runs ethereum full nodes, and most wallets use Infura that is blacklisting transactions, etc.
Seems very centralized to me, but don't worry here comes CZ and Justin Sun to the rescue supporting new ''revolutionary'' shitcoin fork ETHW Wink

Having said that, I don't see certain president son being blacklisted for anything he did, so I don't support blacklisting something you can't track and tax, especially if it improves privacy.

NotATether

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bitcoincleanup.com / bitmixlist.org

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

Quote

Also, this sanction will be a problem because it can be used against anyone. What if I use Tornado Cash then send those coins I mixed to Binance, FTX and Coinbase hot wallets?

Your account will get flagged by centralized exchanges since they're cooperate with money laundering company, they will look with your previous transaction and will know the token came from. If you using a bad privacy mixer, they will know the address is came from a mixer and even you're using a good mixer, they will know you're concealing your transaction.

Let's pose the question in a different light: Bob has so much cryptocurrency that he cannot liquidate it all, so he tries to defraud Alice by doing a transaction with her for Tornado Cash ETH in return.

Or, Bob could target exchanges by identifying the hot wallet addresses of exchanges, mixes some of the coins with Tornado Cash and then directly sending them to said hot wallets. For maximum damage, Bob would send the coins to an identified cold wallet instead.

Of course the coins will be permanently lost, but that's not the point here. Now FTX, Coinbase and co. would be in trouble in government eyes since their hot (or cold, or lukewarm!) wallet addresses are now mixed up with Tornado Cash coins. They would most likely be hit with fines, but smaller exchanges could collapse in a black hole altogether. The only effect this would have on the market would be dragging down prices severely.

TryNinja

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 09, 2022, 08:26:16 PM

I am not quite certain how Tornado Cash works as a mixer and I will not assume that Ethereum validators can trace where the mixed coins have been sent. Show your analysis with data to prove your claim.

They can't. Dude is clueless saying that "ERC20 tokens are centralized".

When you deposit into Tornado.cash, it generates you a private note (like a private key enabling these funds to be withdrawn later). You just use the private note to withdraw with a different address. No one can see which address was responsible for depositing the amount you took out later.

Darker45

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It is both amusing and bothering how things escalated rather quickly on this issue. There was a significant domino effect after the treasury department imposed the blacklist on Tornado Cash. It is rather worrying how the rest easily and quickly bowed down after the decision was meted. Circle immediately took voluntary steps in compliance with the decision. Github followed suit. There might be more to follow. It seems statements of resistance are only coming from individuals when this is obviously a blanket attack on the right to privacy and to be anonymous.

malcovi2

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 09, 2022, 08:26:16 PM

I am not quite certain how Tornado Cash works as a mixer and I will not assume that Ethereum validators can trace where the mixed coins have been sent. Show your analysis with data to prove your claim.

I am also not talking about sending mixed coins to my own account in an exchange. I said send them to exchanges' hot wallets or Vitalik's wallet or also someone can send them to your wallet. What can the government do? They cannot enforce this ban.

https://www.coindesk.com/policy/2019/12/26/binance-blockade-of-wasabi-wallet-could-point-to-a-crypto-crack-up/
https://slowmist.medium.com/slowmist-aml-tracking-funds-laundered-by-tornado-cash-3a0e1f637054

its not completely anonymous, it will just help the transaction hard to trace.
Probably US and EU are monitoring tornado cash very hard now since it is being used by N.Korean hackers.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 08, 2022, 09:06:12 PM

Nothing can stop Tornado Cash because the user can still interact with the smart contracts directly. I have not read all of the news, however, there are some people in social media who said that this is the first time a smart contract has been sanctioned.

I'd say since Tonardo Cash is serving an ERC20 tokens which is centralized, I don't believe they can mix those tokens and didn't link with the previous transactions because the validator will know where the token are send to.

Quote

Also, this sanction will be a problem because it can be used against anyone. What if I use Tornado Cash then send those coins I mixed to Binance, FTX and Coinbase hot wallets?

Your account will get flagged by centralized exchanges since they're cooperate with money laundering company, they will look with your previous transaction and will know the token came from. If you using a bad privacy mixer, they will know the address is came from a mixer and even you're using a good mixer, they will know you're concealing your transaction.

However since Chipmixer is also a centralized mixer, I'm worried since it's possible if Chipmixer get shutdown, or it's possible Chipmixer will only available on Tor network? Obviously google will follow any rules from government.

I am not quite certain how Tornado Cash works as a mixer and I will not assume that Ethereum validators can trace where the mixed coins have been sent. Show your analysis with data to prove your claim.

I am also not talking about sending mixed coins to my own account in an exchange. I said send them to exchanges' hot wallets or Vitalik's wallet or also someone can send them to your wallet. What can the government do? They cannot enforce this ban.

Pmalek

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Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 09:51:27 AM

What I mean is, if the site was shutdown and we can't access it via google, does using Tor is still possible?

If a site is down, you can't access it no matter what browser you use. It's not a browser thing. Google can blacklist ChipMixer or any other service from showing up in their search results. You can test that yourself. Type and search for "ChipMixer" and see what results you are shown. The sites recommended to you are fake phishing sites, but Google doesn't care. But despite it not showing up in search results, you can still open https://chipmixer.com/ with Google Chrome just fine.

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 09:51:27 AM

Any browsers are same, if the site isn't active anymore, using any browsers will have same result since the server can't be connected, correct?

Yes, it will be down across all browsers. All you might be able to access is a cached offline version of the site (maybe).

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 09:51:27 AM

Well, that's make me worried if they're start looking for Bitcoin mixer especially Chipmixer is the biggest Bitcoin mixer. Does it possible for Chipmixer to immune about this problem?

Hard to say. Other mixers have been taken down in the past. When those in power start considering something a threat, there is no telling what its future will be like.

Despairo

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Quote from: Bitcoin_Arena on August 09, 2022, 05:12:17 AM

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

or it's possible Chipmixer will only available on Tor network?

It has been only available on Tor network since this day

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

Obviously google will follow any rules from government.

What would google do? Shutdown chipmixer?
I hope you are joking Cheesy

What I mean is, if the site was shutdown and we can't access it via google, does using Tor is still possible? But after think it few times, I think I take it wrong. Any browsers are same, if the site isn't active anymore, using any browsers will have same result since the server can't be connected, correct?

Well, that's make me worried if they're start looking for Bitcoin mixer especially Chipmixer is the biggest Bitcoin mixer. Does it possible for Chipmixer to immune about this problem?

Pmalek

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 08, 2022, 09:06:12 PM

Also, this sanction will be a problem because it can be used against anyone. What if I use Tornado Cash then send those coins I mixed to Binance, FTX and Coinbase hot wallets?

Many popular centralized crypto exchanges already have certain taint algorithms in place even without this newest attack on privacy. Depending on how they look at things, funds that originate from mixers, coinjoins, and gambling platforms are/could be considered as dirty and unwanted.

Check out [Blacklist] of unreliable, 'taint proclaiming' Bitcoin services / exchanges or What Do Centralized Exchanges Consider as Taint for more information.

One way around that is using decentralized alternatives such as Bisq where bitcoin retains its fungibility.

PX-Z

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Quote from: stompix on August 09, 2022, 07:27:33 AM

Don't trust a single review website other than the bitcointalk link, most are set up by scammers and are actually linking to fake addresses, we've had enough examples to date of such things.

Of course, i know that. But the thing is newbies doesn't know about that that's why they end up using google. Unfortunately, bitcointalk topics/links doesnt show in the google first all the times. Even the website on google's first result using the "chipmixer review" keyword has fake chipmixer link.

stompix

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Blackjack.fun

Quote from: Bitcoin_Arena on August 09, 2022, 05:12:17 AM

What would google do? Shutdown chipmixer?
I hope you are joking Cheesy

You don't need government action and you don't even need an actual move from google for making things worse, just a bot automatically accepting a scammer DMCA attempt, and there you have it. As for actually shutting down, chipmixer isn't at this point accessible over tor, of course, tor was under attack too but the timing of those events is a bit unsettling.

Quote from: PX-Z on August 09, 2022, 07:13:15 AM

Google can only remove the website appearing on google results, but you can't deny that lots of website reviews made a chipmixer reviews already which will show on google including their ANN thread.

Don't trust a single review website other than the bitcointalk link, most are set up by scammers and are actually linking to fake addresses, we've had enough examples to date of such things.

dkbit98

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Quote from: bitmover on August 08, 2022, 03:46:50 PM

What is interesting about this is that the service is actually a piece of code, which can be run locally or in another server.

I guess Vitalik Butern should go to jail because he publicly used TornadoCash many times

I wouldn't say that TornadoCash was ever really decentralized service, same way like Uniswap and other junk dex exchanges are not really dex, and until recently TornadoCash was closed source.
Imagine how ''decentralized'' ethereum is, when you can freeze all tokens by centralized authority, like in case with USDC stableshitcoin.
One more bad thing about TornadoCash is that it was unusable when transaction fees was higher in ethereum.

Quote from: PX-Z on August 08, 2022, 04:18:45 PM

But since it's dependent to github repo, which can be sanctioned too like they did to Iran and other countries suspending github accounts or blocked the access of github with US request which they will do it lately, after realizing it's useless suspending only the website and not its whole process.

Github is actually owned by microsoft pricks, but there are better alternatives like Gitlab that are harder to shut down, and code can be forked anywhere or self hosted.
Real danger with this is that someone could start malicious version of TornadoCash fork to scam and steal money from people.

PX-Z

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Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

Obviously google will follow any rules from government.

Google can only remove the website appearing on google results, but you can't deny that lots of website reviews made a chipmixer reviews already which will show on google including their ANN thread.

bitmover

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bitcoindata.science

Quote from: hugeblack on August 09, 2022, 06:13:40 AM

I have not heard of this service before, Is she central like Chipmixer? Or does it need collective cooperation (protocol management) like Wasabi/coinJoin?

It is a smartcontract that runs on Eth blockchain. It is the best and most used and best mixed in Eth blockchain.
Fully decentralized, as it is just a smartcontract. Theoretically, it cannot be stopped (just the front end app, their website. But it still runs in the blockchain.)

hugeblack

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I have not heard of this service before, Is she central like Chipmixer? Or does it need collective cooperation (protocol management) like Wasabi/coinJoin?

In general, privacy is something that needs value, and I do not think that it is easy or cheap to hide identity from governments or countries that allocate resources to track you. Therefore, hiding identity in crptocurrencies will be more difficult in the future unless current technologies develop.

The biggest danger is the use of centralized cryptocurrencies, which give the developer the possibility to freeze access to your funds.

Bitcoin_Arena

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฿itcoin for all, All for ฿itcoin.

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

However since Chipmixer is also a centralized mixer, I'm worried since it's possible if Chipmixer get shutdown,

It can if they wanted to.

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

or it's possible Chipmixer will only available on Tor network?

It has been only available on Tor network since this day

Quote from: Despairo on August 09, 2022, 04:57:53 AM

Obviously google will follow any rules from government.

What would google do? Shutdown chipmixer?
I hope you are joking Cheesy

Despairo

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Quote from: bbc.reporter on August 08, 2022, 09:06:12 PM

Nothing can stop Tornado Cash because the user can still interact with the smart contracts directly. I have not read all of the news, however, there are some people in social media who said that this is the first time a smart contract has been sanctioned.

I'd say since Tonardo Cash is serving an ERC20 tokens which is centralized, I don't believe they can mix those tokens and didn't link with the previous transactions because the validator will know where the token are send to.

Quote

Also, this sanction will be a problem because it can be used against anyone. What if I use Tornado Cash then send those coins I mixed to Binance, FTX and Coinbase hot wallets?

Your account will get flagged by centralized exchanges since they're cooperate with money laundering company, they will look with your previous transaction and will know the token came from. If you using a bad privacy mixer, they will know the address is came from a mixer and even you're using a good mixer, they will know you're concealing your transaction.

However since Chipmixer is also a centralized mixer, I'm worried since it's possible if Chipmixer get shutdown, or it's possible Chipmixer will only available on Tor network? Obviously google will follow any rules from government.

bbc.reporter

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Quote from: PX-Z on August 08, 2022, 04:18:45 PM

Quote from: bitmover on August 08, 2022, 03:46:50 PM

What is interesting about this is that the service is actually a piece of code, which can be run locally or in another server.

This the good thing of a decentralized platform, ^{(censorship-resistant)} authority can only suspends its website domain or hosting but it can still be used freely.
But since it's dependent to github repo, which can be sanctioned too like they did to Iran and other countries suspending github accounts or blocked the access of github with US request which they will do it lately, after realizing it's useless suspending only the website and not its whole process.
I hope there's also a decentralized code repositories ^{(better if there is already)} for decentralized platform's to preserve its codes.

Nothing can stop Tornado Cash because the user can still interact with the smart contracts directly. I have not read all of the news, however, there are some people in social media who said that this is the first time a smart contract has been sanctioned. This implies that there is is a ban on interacting with the smart contract.

In any case, the solution will certainly be to fork Tornado Cash hehehe.

Also, this sanction will be a problem because it can be used against anyone. What if I use Tornado Cash then send those coins I mixed to Binance, FTX and Coinbase hot wallets?

PX-Z

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Quote from: Bitcoin_Arena on August 08, 2022, 04:38:01 PM

They already did it
/...

https://twitter.com/semenov_roman_/status/1556717890308653059

Ooof, now worst thing will happen if this cofounder or anyone who related founding tornado.cash, their twitter accounts will be suspended/restricted, will be charged and sentenced in prison too.

I checked radicle^{[1][2](accessed through mobile)} as a github alternative and its a bit popular based on twitter followers, i just don't know how it works, i see not code and repositories too.

[1] https://radicle.xyz
[2] https://radicle.network

Bitcoin_Arena

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Lol, Circle has apparently decided to ‘blacklists’ all Tornado Cash ETH addresses there by freezing USDC in them. This is an open warn against privacy and crypto in general Roll Eyes

Quote from: PX-Z on August 08, 2022, 04:18:45 PM

But since it's dependent to github repo, which can be sanctioned too like they did to Iran and other countries suspending github accounts or blocked the access of github with US request which they will do it lately,

They already did it

https://twitter.com/semenov_roman_/status/1556717890308653059

Topic: Tornado Cash mixing service is now blacklisted in US - page 3. (Read 867 times)