TradeFortress is a scammer. - page 11.

dexX7

legendary

Activity: 1106

Merit: 1024

Quote from: Sukrim on May 17, 2013, 05:30:59 AM

They are signed statements that there will be a settlement of debt in the future, they are even more explicit than any "loan agreement" on this forum.

It's not about "binding agreements" or "signed statements". I don't see anything wrong here. That's just how Ripple works.

Anyway, there is no difference between his IOU Bitcoins and any other "coins" on Ripple. If you want to send BTC, Ripple has no way to do that, because Ripple cannot handle actual Bitcoin, it can only handle promises out of thin air (and XRP). By trusting an user, you accept his promise, which is never backed up by real value, till you find someone who is willing to exchange some real goods for that promise.

There will always be someone left, who ended up with no real value, but IOUs. It's not a zero game.

ervalvola

hero member

Activity: 669

Merit: 500

If people are so stupid to use RIpple and give trust to TF, they DESERVE to be scammed! And he's not a scammer!!!

I love this pure and disinterested logic!!!

Let's stole all BTC of ingenuous people! WOW.

ervalvola

hero member

Activity: 669

Merit: 500

I'm stunned.

you guys are telling:

"I don't like Ripple, just let people to lost money to demonstrate it is flawed"

Cmon, let the game go on! Just use this forum and the bitcoin itself to organize a gigantic scam which could end in someone losing a big amount of bitcoin and some smart scammer exploit that stupid "experiment"!

Rly, rly.

Francesco

sr. member

Activity: 252

Merit: 250

Ripple IOUs are binding agreements if and only if people believe they are.

Just as US police could or could not decide bitcoins have value, and thus persecute or not persecute someone who stole them. Same thing: the infrastructure is there, we give it meaning.

Anyway, never trust people not trustworthy, and the problem will go away by itself.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

vip

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1043

👻

Well, if you are OK with getting paid in Ripple IOUs issued that can't be redeemed.

I have not said that I will let you redeem the BTC, I've even implied that you wouldn't be able to. It would be a clear and shut case if I told people that I would send them a bitcoin via ripple that they can redeem from me, versus sending them a Ripple BTC - which are not BTC.

It's like those 5 BTC coins with no value / private key on them that were selling recently, you know? They say 5 BTC, they are not 5 BTC, they don't have the private key of 5 BTC. When someone sells that for 0.04 each (or even free, in this case), crying in scammer accusations isn't going to help you - even if the seller didn't explicitly state that "they cannot be redeemed by BTCs". Example:

Casascius.com:

Quote

Each piece has its own Bitcoin address and a redeemable "private key" on the inside, underneath the hologram.

Now this would be an agreement. Or something similar, especially if it's signed.

An arbitrary token of an IOU with no terms attached is not. I would have broken an agreement if I used Ripple to send BTCs where I had redemption / repayment terms, and broke that.

Ripple is the same thing. It's OpenCoin Inc's fault for saying "send money" on their website, when Ripple is incapable of sending money other than XRP.

MPOE-PR

hero member

Activity: 756

Merit: 522

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on May 16, 2013, 10:59:19 PM

You give trust every time you want to receive payments in Ripple, no I didn't get 1 BTC, someone else did. Mt Gox isn't responsible if someone sends coins to Satoshi Dice, even if you argue "but they should have added warnings!".

Actually there is ample room here for a cherry truck argument. "They are both equally something or the other because they both were involved and that's all it takes" or some such Joel Katz level idiocy.

Quote from: ervalvola on May 16, 2013, 11:28:16 PM

If you dislike guns, will you shoot at people to demonstrate that it hurts? You would go to jail.

Not in Bitcoin. Which is precisely why people like Bitcoin. You can't have both ends.

Quote from: BadBear on May 17, 2013, 12:07:14 AM

I never realized how flawed ripple is, thanks for that.

Ditto.

lophie

hero member

Activity: 924

Merit: 1001

Unlimited Free Crypto

First of all leave trade fortress alone you bullies. If you are not one of the victims or lawyering for them, Then keep the accusations for yourselves. Everybody knows ripple is a scam and if someone really really wants some darn ripple IOUs, Why not giving them what they want? They got what they wanted and not being redeemable via a gateway is a whole different issue (Ripple is a SCAM)

Quote from: Sukrim on May 17, 2013, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: theymos on May 16, 2013, 11:08:29 PM

I don't recognize Ripple IOUs as binding agreements.

Why?!

They are signed statements that there will be a settlement of debt in the future, they are even more explicit than any "loan agreement" on this forum.

Issuing debt with the clear intention of not settling it should at least be mentioned in the topic... I can pull off similar stuff in Bitcoin but then I'd be labeled scammer for sure.

Is this discussion about ripple IOUs or the US Dollar? As I recall even before the Dollar went off the silver backing you couldn't just go and redeem the silver.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

vip

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1043

👻

Quote from: Sukrim on May 17, 2013, 05:30:59 AM

Quote from: theymos on May 16, 2013, 11:08:29 PM

I don't recognize Ripple IOUs as binding agreements.

Why?!

They are signed statements that there will be a settlement of debt in the future, they are even more explicit than any "loan agreement" on this forum.

Issuing debt with the clear intention of not settling it should at least be mentioned in the topic... I can pull off similar stuff in Bitcoin but then I'd be labeled scammer for sure.

No, they are not explicit. When will they be settled? In what methods will they be settled (this is important for fiat like USD)? What about something like XAU - shipping availability, costs, insurance?

They're just arbitrary tokens. In fact, one person may think "FAV" is a favor, one person might think it's a favicon. Kinda absurd example, but that's another flaw for another day.

Sukrim

legendary

Activity: 2618

Merit: 1006

Quote from: theymos on May 16, 2013, 11:08:29 PM

I don't recognize Ripple IOUs as binding agreements.

Why?!

They are signed statements that there will be a settlement of debt in the future, they are even more explicit than any "loan agreement" on this forum.

Issuing debt with the clear intention of not settling it should at least be mentioned in the topic... I can pull off similar stuff in Bitcoin but then I'd be labeled scammer for sure.

r3wt

hero member

Activity: 686

Merit: 504

always the student, never the master.

The irony is this, you all get scammed due to your own greedy desires.

Scammers are opurtunists. Don't hate player hate the game

BlackLilac Grant

member

Activity: 72

Merit: 10

Quote from: theymos on May 16, 2013, 11:08:29 PM

I don't recognize Ripple IOUs as binding agreements.

Exactly.

Thanks for making this clear, theymos.

BlackLilac Grant

member

Activity: 72

Merit: 10

Quote from: BlackLilac Grant on May 17, 2013, 01:02:52 AM

The posters starting these threads about Tradefortress should be banned. They are likely all Ripple sockpuppets. Scammer tags are for scammers; those who steal, don't pay back loans, break contracts, or the like. Not people exploiting holes in centralized systems like Ripple.

dchapes

member

Activity: 84

Merit: 10

Quote from: darkmule on May 17, 2013, 12:39:17 AM

Where's the transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain where real BTC went from one actual person to another?

That's as stupid as asking someone what the serial numbers on the dollar bills they lost were when someone loses money with a credit card or a bank card or a cheque or something. Do you think the police ask that and then say "well geez no `money` was stolen then sorry".

darkmule

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1005

Quote from: ervalvola on May 17, 2013, 12:21:58 AM

Guys, do you understand that for this joke an account lost 1 BTC reedemable on Bitstamp?

Lost another IOU? Where's the transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain where real BTC went from one actual person to another?

It'd look kind of like this: http://blockchain.info/tx/678a1eda47d92337246b1dbfe429baf9c6c89fbb0f50d274b0ae7c0078781e94

This is definitely an example of why someone shouldn't do this, at least not with an account with any real anything in it. Did TF get this? Is he actually cashing in things from people and turning them into real BTC in his wallet?

darkmule

legendary

Activity: 1176

Merit: 1005

Quote from: arsenische on May 16, 2013, 11:53:54 PM

Let me remind you that Matthew N. Wright received a scammer tag on this forum for his trolling that appeared to be a binding contract, lol... And had to settle it somehow with his so called victims, i. e. to pay for it.

MNW explicitly agreed to a scammer tag in the event that he reneged. His situation is kind of unique to him.

ervalvola

hero member

Activity: 669

Merit: 500

Guys, do you understand that for this joke an account lost 1 BTC reedemable on Bitstamp?

TradeFortress should edit the topic to be no more self-moderated, allowing people to report financial loss and take the obligation to repay whoever demonstrate to have lost bitcoins.

About Ripple, (i'm a bit frustrated because a bunch of senior member are sistematically going Off Topic here, because we're not talking about Ripple here), ok yes, so you're right.

If someone decides to ignore the fact that giving trust on Ripple can bring a money loss, which is written in capital letters everywhere, this guy can be scammed. So through Ripple you can trick a person.
I was naively thinking that you can scam a person with fiat too. And with Bitcoin you can easy do money laundering, and buy weapons and drugs. So we just don't use any kind of money, crypto or not.

EDIT: still people giving him trust

BadBear

legendary

Activity: 1652

Merit: 1127

I never realized how flawed ripple is, thanks for that.

🏰 TradeFortress 🏰

vip

Activity: 1316

Merit: 1043

👻

Quote from: arsenische on May 16, 2013, 11:39:06 PM

Quote from: 🏰 TradeFortress 🏰 on May 16, 2013, 11:37:27 PM

Is that person doing it for personal gain, or to bring awareness to it?

His intentions are honorable, but does it matter? (e. g. Robin Hood was a thief with honorable intentions... and in fact he was the criminal)

That isn't really similar, see

Quote

Let me remind you that Matthew N. Wright received a scammer tag on this forum for his trolling that appeared to be a binding contract, lol... And had to settle it somehow with his so called victims, i. e. to pay for it.

Matthew promised to pay out. I never promised to honor Ripple IOUs, and you would have to have misread it to think I was even implying.

I'd also suggest you read Satoshi's quotes on the banking system and the idea of trust. We *don't* need trust anymore with Bitcoin. It's one of the ads for this week too.

I will now be sending the full trust line amount, so they do not become liquidity providers. I think the damage has already being done for that point

Kluge

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1015

Quote from: ervalvola on May 16, 2013, 11:46:33 PM

Quote from: darkmule on May 16, 2013, 11:43:59 PM

However, what is it that this system allows me to be looking at a balance screen telling me I have 5 BTC when in fact they are basically imaginary? That's honesty?

That's exactly the same system you use everytime you log into MtGox to trade your bitcoins Cool

Yep, except there's recourse if Gox fails to repay, because you did not turn over ownership of anything to Gox, only control (and very limited control, at that). If Gox holds $10 of yours, it's still yours.

- So the analogy doesn't fly. Gox isn't giving you IOUs (except with GoxUSD and GoxBTC codes which are no longer available) - they aren't giving you anything -- they're just showing you what of yours they are in partial control of.

arsenische

legendary

Activity: 1199

Merit: 1012

Quote from: darkmule on May 16, 2013, 11:43:59 PM

I don't agree TF is a scammer. A troll, maybe, but with a purpose.

Let me remind you that Matthew N. Wright received a scammer tag on this forum for his trolling that appeared to be a binding contract, lol... And had to settle it somehow with his so called victims, i. e. to pay for it.

Though I totally understand both tolls and sincerely don't wish any of them to have a scammer tag (I can't be sure I won't receive a scammer tag for similar trolling of myself in future, but I'll try to be careful, lol).

Quote

However, what is it that this system allows me to be looking at a balance screen telling me I have 5 BTC when in fact they are basically imaginary? That's honesty?

Most money we use everyday are imaginary. If you trust IOU issuers, then you trust this balance. If you don't trust that person anymore, you can remove the trust and the balance will probably change? I don't know, I am just learning that system. But the concept is interesting. And in fact we use it everyday when we deal with any kind of bank accounts, online balances, etc.

Topic: TradeFortress is a scammer. - page 11. (Read 14455 times)