Transaction cost in kWh | Bitcointalksearch.org

cdog

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Quote from: jamesg on October 01, 2014, 06:00:49 AM

We are probably over secure at this point in time but the infrastructure is in place for the network to grow 10x in transaction size which existing mining infrastructure.

The problem is, we can rapidly pass 10x and goto 100x or 1000x before the network is ready

Borisz

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Quote from: Morbid on October 02, 2014, 12:28:22 PM

its obvious that the transaction cost is swallowed up by the miner who is actually paying the elecy bill for doing the mining. so this transaction cost is actually simply converted from elecy $ to BTC as a reward. its just conversion of wealth. buyer/seller of bitcoins dont lose anything. ether way - think of all the banks, printing machines, infrastructure that is out there to support fiat currencies. crypto wins in any case.

Correct.
In no way is this to be confused with the Transaction fee that a user may pay for sending Bitcoins.

Morbid

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its obvious that the transaction cost is swallowed up by the miner who is actually paying the elecy bill for doing the mining. so this transaction cost is actually simply converted from elecy $ to BTC as a reward. its just conversion of wealth. buyer/seller of bitcoins dont lose anything. ether way - think of all the banks, printing machines, infrastructure that is out there to support fiat currencies. crypto wins in any case.

monsterer

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Quote from: Borisz on October 02, 2014, 10:26:33 AM

How could Power (kW) be used to measure the transaction fee? Could you explain what you meant?

Ignore me, I'm talking rubbish in this case. Yes, you are correct, kWh is the right unit.

Borisz

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Quote from: monsterer on October 02, 2014, 10:07:18 AM

Just wanted to make the point that transaction cost isn't measured in kWh, it's measured in plain kW since there is a finite amount of time it takes a transaction to be mined.

This is the exact reason why it is measured in kWh (energy) and not kW (power).

It takes an amount of Energy to mine a block, not Power. Power is not descriptive as you could have 1kW running for 10 minutes or 10kW running for 1 minute and you would have the same result.

How could Power (kW) be used to measure the transaction fee? Could you explain what you meant?

MasterMaA

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What is the conclusion?
Is BTC's cost per transaction high?

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 10:05:55 AM

10-20 dollar children's toy ASIC doesn't consume 1200W electricity. If you are going to use them as heaters, you need a ton of ASIC in there.

Exactly, and more asics = more hashing power = more payback. That 10-20 dollar toy cost is mainly due to marketing, distribution, and profits.... not for the "expensive" asic inside.

I'm going to leave off this conversation here as we will let history be the decider.

monsterer

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Just wanted to make the point that transaction cost isn't measured in kWh, it's measured in plain kW since there is a finite amount of time it takes a transaction to be mined.

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 02, 2014, 10:02:43 AM

Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 10:00:25 AM

They don't need to pay 100% of the unit cost, but they do need to pay 100% of the ASIC component cost, otherwise you are just buying a more expensive heater for no reason. The problem is, with 20% up time, there is no hope of ever paying back the 100% ASIC cost, even with the electricity cost savings. Therefore, you are indeed just buying a more expensive heater for no reason.

Ahh... you are making the mistake assuming ASICs cost a lot to manufacture once the initial investment is amortized. It is merely a matter of scale.

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 02, 2014, 09:10:06 AM

You do realize ASIC's exists in many cheap 10-20 dollar children's toys, right?

10-20 dollar children's toy ASIC doesn't consume 1200W electricity. If you are going to use them as heaters, you need a ton of ASIC in there. These ASIC will make the heater cost extremely expensive compared to a regular heater.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 10:00:25 AM

They don't need to pay 100% of the unit cost, but they do need to pay 100% of the ASIC component cost, otherwise you are just buying a more expensive heater for no reason. The problem is, with 20% up time, there is no hope of ever paying back the 100% ASIC cost, even with the electricity cost savings. Therefore, you are indeed just buying a more expensive heater for no reason.

Ahh... you are making the mistake assuming ASICs cost a lot to manufacture once the initial investment is amortized. It is merely a matter of scale.

Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 02, 2014, 09:10:06 AM

You do realize ASIC's exists in many cheap 10-20 dollar children's toys, right?

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 02, 2014, 09:58:12 AM

Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:54:07 AM

They can not be on all the time, why would you have them on when the temperature is above 76F? Waterheater can not be on all the time neither, they run in cycles, otherwise you are just wasting water/energy.

The problem is when you can't have them on 100% of the time, you could never recoup your hardware cost, because like you said, new ASIC will be come cheaper and more efficient, therefore driving up the difficulty, and your old hardware, when not on 100% of the time, will never recoup the cost. Which makes your investment a loss when competing against a real mining farm.

In the equation above the ASIC's hot water heater are on 20% of the time, silly. The transaction rewards and block rewards merely subsidize the electricity or amortize the unit cost. They don't need to pay 100% of the unit costs or electrical costs as that is just a bonus. People need hot water regardless, and some Wink

people like hot water when its overcast in the morning or at night.

They don't need to pay 100% of the unit cost, but they do need to pay 100% of the ASIC component cost, otherwise you are just buying a more expensive heater for no reason. The problem is, with 20% up time, there is no hope of ever paying back the 100% ASIC cost, even with the electricity cost savings. Therefore, you are indeed just buying a more expensive heater(that requires constant on internet) for no reason.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:54:07 AM

They can not be on all the time, why would you have them on when the temperature is above 76F? Waterheater can not be on all the time neither, they run in cycles, otherwise you are just wasting water/energy.

The problem is when you can't have them on 100% of the time, you could never recoup your hardware cost, because like you said, new ASIC will be come cheaper and more efficient, therefore driving up the difficulty, and your old hardware, when not on 100% of the time, will never recoup the cost. Which makes your investment a loss when competing against a real mining farm.

In the equation above the ASIC hot water heater are on 20% of the time, silly. The transaction rewards and block rewards merely subsidize the electricity or amortize the unit cost. They don't need to pay 100% of the unit costs or electrical costs as that is just a bonus. People need hot water regardless, and some Wink

people like hot water when its overcast or in the morning or at night.

Do the math. What is more efficient?

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 02, 2014, 09:46:35 AM

Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:33:42 AM

Again, you are questioning reality with your imagined scenario. If it was indeed profitable, it would be in mass usage by now. The REALITY is that it is NOT profitable to run a ASIC as a heater, because it CAN NOT be turned on all the time, therefore the hardware cost can not be easily recouped. It has no hope to compete against a full time mining farm.

Some heaters are on all the time, but lets assume that we have intermittent Asics competing with full time Asics for a moment.

Option A-
ASIC hot water heater running 20% of the time cost efficiency = (amortized costs of design, testing, build, and shipping / millions of units) - 20% normal rate of transaction fees and block rewards compared to standalone miners

Option B-
ASIC Standalone miner running 100% of the time cost efficiency = (amortized costs of design, testing, build, and shipping / thousands of units) + electricity costs + possible costs for cooling

Do the math . What is more efficient?

P.S... remember in option A electricity isn't included because its a needed product already consumed.

They can not be on all the time, why would you have them on when the temperature is above 76F? Waterheater can not be on all the time neither, they run in cycles, otherwise you are just wasting water/energy.

The problem is when you can't have them on near100% of the time, you could never recoup your hardware cost, because like you said, new ASIC will be come cheaper and more efficient, therefore driving up the difficulty, and your old hardware, when not on 100% of the time, will never recoup the cost. Which makes your ASIC part of the investment a loss when competing against a real mining farm. So you basically bought a very expensive space heater/water heater, when you could have gotten a regular one cheaper, even considering the total cost of ownership.

Again, like I told you weeks ago, when your imagined scenario doesn't exist in reality, you need to first question your scenario, not question reality. Also again, if you truly believe in your scenario, then build the product, and let me know of your huge success.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:44:30 AM

oh, so only general public election are considered election now? BTSX delegate is elected by a group of stakeholders, it's not a general public election. It's more like a IEEE or ICANN board election, and how much does it cost to be elected as IEEE or ICANN board member?

Where can the general public vote for an IEEE or ICANN official? Are there polling booths?

Yes, I repeatedly claim that BTSX will likely have cheap and efficient election costs. This is because the stake holders will remain relatively small in numbers. If those stake holders increase to lets say 380 million than you should expect the costs to increase as well if they all can vote.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:33:42 AM

Again, you are questioning reality with your imagined scenario. If it was indeed profitable, it would be in mass usage by now. The REALITY is that it is NOT profitable to run a ASIC as a heater, because it CAN NOT be turned on all the time, therefore the hardware cost can not be easily recouped. It has no hope to compete against a full time mining farm.

Some heaters are on all the time, but lets assume that we have intermittent Asics competing with full time Asics for a moment.

Option A-
ASIC hot water heater running 20% of the time cost efficiency = (amortized costs of design, testing, build, and shipping / millions of units) - 20% normal rate of transaction fees and block rewards compared to standalone miners

Option B-
ASIC Standalone miner running 100% of the time cost efficiency = (amortized costs of design, testing, build, and shipping / thousands of units) + electricity costs + possible costs for cooling

Do the math . What is more efficient?

P.S... remember in option A electricity isn't included because its a needed product already consumed.

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 02, 2014, 09:39:51 AM

Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:33:42 AM

OMG. The appointment of secretary general is an election process! with candidates!, how much does it cost to be a winning candidates?

Yes, that is what the link I sent you described. They are appointed through an election process involving elected officials who ran popularity campaigns. This no way is akin to the general public or users electing an official directly.

Yes, if BTSX simply has small election of government and industry insiders appointing DPoS delegates the election costs are minimal. I agree. Is that what you envision of BTSX?

oh, so only general public election are considered election now? BTSX delegate is elected by a group of stakeholders, it's not a general public election. It's more like a IEEE or ICANN board election, and how much does it cost to be elected as IEEE or ICANN board member?

inBitweTrust

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Activity: 658

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Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:33:42 AM

OMG. The appointment of secretary general is an election process! with candidates!, how much does it cost to be a winning candidates?

Yes, that is what the link I sent you described. They are appointed through an election process involving elected officials who ran popularity campaigns. This no way is akin to the general public or users electing an official directly.

Yes, if BTSX simply has small election of government and industry insiders appointing DPoS delegates the election costs are minimal. I agree. Is that what you envision of BTSX?

kokojie

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Quote from: inBitweTrust on October 02, 2014, 09:24:11 AM

Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:15:00 AM

How much is the campaign cost to be elected as the Secretary-general of United Nations? show me your "well known study".

The Secretary-general isn't elected but appointed:

http://www.un.org/sg/appointment.shtml

....by elected officials who do ultimately have to campaign. So the answer is either a very costly sum of the campaign costs of all those that appointed them or N/A.

Or are you insinuating DPoS in the future will have appointed positions rather than elected positions?

Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:15:00 AM

per unit cost will shrink in ASIC, the total cost of PoW CAN NOT shrink, otherwise how do you secure the network against 51% attack? PoW expense will have to be more and more expensive as Bitcoin grows in scale.

Yes, I do expect the hash rate to increase , and electricity usage increase. This is exactly what will force decentralization and miners to need to use ASICs as products which create useful heat energy with the side effect of free PoW which can than in turn be used to subsidize the energy costs and amortize the unit costs. I don't get why you fail to understand the economics.

OMG. The appointment of secretary general is an election process! with candidates!, how much does it cost to be a winning candidates?

Again, you are questioning reality with your imagined scenario/economics. If it was indeed profitable, it would be in mass usage by now. The REALITY is that it is NOT profitable to run a ASIC as a heater, because it CAN NOT be turned on all the time, therefore the hardware cost can not be easily recouped. It has no hope to compete against a full time mining farm. But hey if you think you are smarter than everybody else, go ahead and build your ASIC heater, and let me know of your huge product success.

amaclin

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Quote

Let's just keep the topic on something that does exist in reality, that is the $500 million PoW expense that is staring Bitcoin holders in the face!

Let me add - these funds were spent most for processing and securing transactions to Satoshi Dice and other gambling. Grin

Welcome to bitcoin!

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:15:00 AM

How much is the campaign cost to be elected as the Secretary-general of United Nations? show me your "well known study".

The Secretary-general isn't elected but appointed:

http://www.un.org/sg/appointment.shtml

....by elected officials who do ultimately have to campaign. So the answer is either a very costly sum of the campaign costs of all those that appointed them or N/A.

Or are you insinuating DPoS in the future will have appointed positions rather than elected positions?

Quote from: kokojie on October 02, 2014, 09:15:00 AM

per unit cost will shrink in ASIC, the total cost of PoW CAN NOT shrink, otherwise how do you secure the network against 51% attack? PoW expense will have to be more and more expensive as Bitcoin grows in scale.

Yes, I do expect the hash rate to increase , and electricity usage increases. This is exactly what will force decentralization and miners to need to use ASICs as products which create useful heat energy with the side effect of free PoW which can than in turn be used to subsidize the energy costs and amortize the unit costs. I don't get why you fail to understand the economics.

Topic: Transaction cost in kWh (Read 5108 times)