Transaction cost in kWh - page 4. | Bitcointalksearch.org

amaclin

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Yes, you don't understand. ASIC's doing PoW mining are 99.9% efficient at converting electricity to Heat so any appliance that needs to heat something that uses ASIC's as the heating element

Sorry, you are wrong. Either a device is PoW-device or device is heating/blowing/whatever-another-useful-thing-doing device.
There is no safety at all when the network consists from such multi-purpose devices.

If you pay nothing for security - you gain nothing.

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: amaclin on October 01, 2014, 10:00:34 AM

My point of view that "cost issue" will be solved at "zero point" (no transactions, no value, no safety)

Your opinion is clear. Can you coherently express why you think that is a more likely probability rather than the one of the many solutions expressed below?
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/

Bitcoin has reached a critical mass. We aren't going to let it die. We are going to make sure it succeeds and will reach consensus on the needed changes to make it happen
when they are needed.

amaclin

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Potentially, but as outlined by Vitalik Buterin:
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/
There are many solutions to your proposed dilemma that can be adopted in the future. The right course of action may be doing nothing as
the laws of thermodynamics and economics will converge to automatically solve the cost issue, centralization dilemma, and environmental concerns.

My point of view that "cost issue" will be solved at "zero point" (no transactions, no value, no safety)

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: amaclin on October 01, 2014, 09:48:11 AM

This value does not matter. Transaction rate changes very slow.
OK, what should happen to increase number of transaction twice? Do you see another China or India on our planet?
The transaction cost is too high for decentralized systems and they lose at start

The costs are extremely low compared to other secure payment infrastructures but, yes, the cost per transaction is being subsidized by new investors at the moment.
The cost per transaction ultimately is determined by this formula:

(Labor+ASIC investment+Electricity) / total transactions per block = cost per transactions

The Size of the block can be changed with a few lines of code that would dramatically lower the "cost per transactions" if transaction volume spiked.

Quote from: amaclin on October 01, 2014, 09:48:11 AM

ASICs used for heating are not doing PoW.
Sorry, I do not get it.

Yes, you don't understand. ASIC's doing PoW mining are 99.9% efficient at converting electricity to Heat so any appliance that needs to heat something that uses ASIC's as the heating element
are essentially subsidizing the electrical costs or benefiting the users electric bill and environment. Future applications for ASIC's PoW miners include hot water heaters, space heaters, home heaters, dehydrators , ect....

You really need to do a bit more research into the problems and solutions to PoW:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/

One potential solution involves "doing nothing" because the laws of thermodynamics and economics will automatically solve the cost issue, centralization dilemma, and environmental concerns.

amaclin

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but customers do not pay $5-$20 per transaction. think of it like gold.

They will pay. Later. Soon.

Thinking about gold is also thinking about "cost of keeping" (I do not know right English words how to explain)
You should have a safe and a guard to keep your gold piece.
Do not ever forget that someone always pays expenses.

amaclin

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1) Block size changing (amount of transactions per block increasing)

This value does not matter. Transaction rate changes very slow.
OK, what should happen to increase number of transaction twice? Do you see another China or India on our planet?
The transaction cost is too high for decentralized systems and they lose at start.
The only thing they can do - be a ponzi.

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2) Asics being used for heating thus 99.9% of energy being converting into needed product and mining for BTC merely being a product that subsidizes the energy bill

ASICs used for heating are not doing PoW.

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You do understand that ASIC's are very cheap to manufacture once designed and tested and that we are just going through a transitional period
where the 10+ ASIC fabs are recouping initial capital investment costs right?

Sorry, I do not get it.
Bitcoin users community can not pay forever for miners who converts electricity to heat.
Sooner or later you should remember about physics.

franky1

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Quote from: amaclin on October 01, 2014, 09:18:56 AM

A year ago the hashrate was 200 times lower.
And transaction cost (calculated in kWh) was lower. Bitcoin had advantages of cheap transactions (according to the value of incoming $$).

I do ask you again - can you plot a chart transaction cost in kWh
Do not post it to a forum! Analyze it yourself. Think.

there were not terrahash miners last year, just gigahash miners so the electric/has was more expensive.
180ghash for 1kw
1450Thash(1,449,977Ghash)
=8055kw
282 transactions
28.5kw/tx
again UK rate of electric(20c)
$5.71 per tx.

but customers do not pay $5-$20 per transaction.
think of it like gold. CUSTOMERS do not have to shave off small amounts of their hoard to pay $5-$20 in transactions.. instead the miners are given fresh gold straight from the mine. and can sell that fresh gold at the market rate.

customers however pay a spot price / (0.0001btc) which is only a few cents of shavings off of their hoard. not $5-$20

inBitweTrust

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Quote from: amaclin on October 01, 2014, 09:18:56 AM

We will see the "big bitcoin fall" very soon.

You are making a few assumptions that don't take into account:

1) Block size changing (amount of transactions per block increasing)
2) Asics being used for heating thus 99.9% of energy being converting into needed product and mining for BTC merely being a product that subsidizes the energy bill

You do understand that ASIC's are very cheap to manufacture once designed and tested and that we are just going through a transitional period
where the 10+ ASIC fabs are recouping initial capital investment costs right?

Quote from: kokojie on October 01, 2014, 08:43:20 AM

But at some point, the inflow of capital will be unable to keep up, and we will see the depreciation, we are possibly seeing it right now.

Potentially, but as outlined by Vitalik Buterin:

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/

There are many solutions to your proposed dilemma that can be adopted in the future. The right course of action may be doing nothing as
the laws of thermodynamics and economics will converge to automatically solve the cost issue, centralization dilemma, and environmental concerns.

This is not to say that we shouldn't be vigilant and try and promote a quicker adoption into ASIC decentralization...yes, by all means, join us and
help decentralize ASIC's.

amaclin

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if you simplify it down that gold is only desired as people prefer it over silver or copper because of certain features and benefits.

It is too difficult in our world to double-spend gold or silver
It will be very easy to double-spend bitcoins if the hashrate falls x2 from the current value. Grin

Because there will be asics switched off, ready for sell at zero-price

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bitcoin is not just about swapping between fiat and bitcoin. people actually have the desire to keep and use bitcoin for multiple reasons beyond swapping for fiat.

Yes. But these things in bitcoin will cost them much more than deals in fiat. Sorry.

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thus in the big picture of life, you can twist anything and everything to sound like a ponzi

Yes. But more effective ponzis live long. Less effective die. Bitcoin costs too much for community. 80 kWh per one transaction? Crazy!

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stop being narrow mind about trying to pump and dump the price and caring about the price, and think about the features and benefits of bitcoin

I do not trade.

franky1

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Quote from: amaclin on October 01, 2014, 08:59:15 AM

Quote

But at some point, the inflow of capital will be unable to keep up, and we will see the depreciation, we are possibly seeing it right now.

Isn't it a ponzi scheme? Grin

Bitcoin transaction costs are not low! They are deferred to next levels of pyramid.
Sorry, people. You all have been goxxed Cry

We will see the "big bitcoin fall" very soon.

if you simplify it down that gold is only desired as people prefer it over silver or copper because of certain features and benefits. and that the cost of mining gold is deffered onto the second level.. then you realise that what you say applies to many things.

bitcoin is not just about swapping between fiat and bitcoin. people actually have the desire to keep and use bitcoin for multiple reasons beyond swapping for fiat.

thus in the big picture of life, you can twist anything and everything to sound like a ponzi, if you simply ignore the features and benefits of the 'produce' for sale and only think about the price and the FIAT swap part.

stop being narrow mind about trying to pump and dump the price and caring about the price, and think about the features and benefits of bitcoin

amaclin

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A year ago the hashrate was 200 times lower.
And transaction cost (calculated in kWh) was lower. Bitcoin had advantages of cheap transactions (according to the value of incoming $$).
Now the game is over.
If the miners will switch off some of their devices - the security rate will fall.
Switched off asics cost NOTHING to a potential attacker who wants to gain 51% power and create alternate chain of 1440 blocks (he pays only for electricity, hardware will cost near to zero)
Bitcoin will lose securing transaction advantages.
The end.

I do ask you again - can you plot a chart transaction cost in kWh
Do not post it to a forum! Analyze it yourself. Think.

headswim

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Quote from: kokojie on October 01, 2014, 08:43:20 AM

Every holder of Bitcoin is paying, by having their coins depreciate 10% each year, perpetually, due to the cost of PoW mining. Though we have been lucky so far, since the inflow of capital far outpaces this depreciation in the past. But at some point, the inflow of capital will be unable to keep up, and we will see the depreciation, we are possibly seeing it right now.

You are confusing inflation with price appreciation, and your claim is based entirely on a timeframe that you selected to fit your bias.

Just as easily, you could say that Bitcoin price has appreciated by greater than 4x per year and be equally correct.

There is inflation in the money supply of Bitcoin, which was and is known (since it wasn't heavily pre-mined like other coins), math-based, predictable, and FALLING over time. Because industrial miners are profit-focused, they are selling virtually immediately to lock-in current price to pay the bills, rather than speculating about future value. This causes somewhere between 0 and 3600 BTC to be sold daily onto the market, creating natural downward pressure on price.

amaclin

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But at some point, the inflow of capital will be unable to keep up, and we will see the depreciation, we are possibly seeing it right now.

Isn't it a ponzi scheme? Grin

Bitcoin transaction costs are not low! They are deferred to next levels of pyramid.
Sorry, people. You all have been goxxed Cry

We will see the "big bitcoin fall" very soon.

kokojie

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Quote from: amaclin on October 01, 2014, 07:35:37 AM

Quote

ets say it is 20c per kwh=$17

Sorry. I do not want to calculate mining profits.
I only want to know - who is paying today these $17 bucks per transaction

OK, I know (I think that I know) who is paying.
His name is John Smith and he thinks that his transactions are low-cost and bitcoin is awesome.
He also thinks that bitcoin will cost tomorrow more than today.
He knows nothing in cryptography, math, physics and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy.
He thinks that he can gain infinite profits only holding some digits in his computer for infinite time.

UPD:
OK, may be one can argue with $17 per transaction.
Let us go one step back.
Who is paying [%your number][%your currency] for 83.33kWh per one transaction?

Every holder of Bitcoin is paying, by having their coins depreciate 10% each year, perpetually, due to the cost of PoW mining. Though we have been lucky so far, since the inflow of capital far outpaces this depreciation in the past. But at some point, the inflow of capital will be unable to keep up, and we will see the depreciation, we are possibly seeing it right now.

amaclin

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but i did edit out the cost of a BTC, as it seems this topic just wants to concentrate on transaction cost

Yes. Thanks a lot for editing. This clearing our minds and our discussion.
I want to calculate transaction costs in some universal resources, which do not depend on countries and other reasons.
And compare these costs with other processing systems.

Do you see what I see? Grin

Q7

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Quote from: franky1 on October 01, 2014, 07:40:28 AM

Quote from: Q7 on October 01, 2014, 07:35:26 AM

Possible miscalculation
Conduct proper research before coming up with conclusion of 0.2c kwh. Work out again your maths and you can find out how low it can go.

0.2cents!! seriously.. i was thinking more along the lines of 20 cents

im sorry, i should have said.. im from the UK

but feel free to adjust your numbers to your country.. after all i did say "lets say" which is a term of a guess/estimate rather than a rule.
enjoy your day knitpicker!

but i did edit out the cost of a BTC, as it seems this topic just wants to concentrate on transaction cost

Geez... sorry about that. didn't meant to be so mean. I just want to point out that it could be miscalculated. I'll just edit my post and rephrase it to possible miscalculation.

Meet up with u some day on some bitcoin conference

franky1

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Quote from: Q7 on October 01, 2014, 07:35:26 AM

WRONG!
Conduct proper research before coming up with conclusion of 0.2c kwh. Work out again your maths and you can find out how low it can go.

0.2cents!! seriously.. i was thinking more along the lines of 20 cents

im sorry, i should have said.. im from the UK

but feel free to adjust your numbers to your country.. after all i did say "lets say" which is a term of a guess/estimate rather than a rule.
enjoy your day knitpicker!

but i did edit out the cost of a BTC, as it seems this topic just wants to concentrate on transaction cost

amaclin

legendary

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Quote

ets say it is 20c per kwh=$17

Sorry. I do not want to calculate mining profits.
I only want to know - who is paying today these $17 bucks per transaction

OK, I know (I think that I know) who is paying.
His name is John Smith and he thinks that his transactions are low-cost and bitcoin is awesome.
He also thinks that bitcoin will cost tomorrow more than today.
He knows nothing in cryptography, math, physics and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy.
He thinks that he can gain infinite profits only holding some digits in his computer for infinite time.

UPD:
OK, may be one can argue with $17 per transaction.
Let us go one step back.
Who is paying [%your number][%your currency] for 83.33kWh per one transaction?

Q7

sr. member

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franky1

legendary

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ok lets use some maths

EDIT(after writing the below maths): seems the mining community have had a discount on mining costs compared to last time i calculated it in the summer.. so read on and enjoy

numbers we know..
hashrate: 250petahash(avg for month) https://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate
1terrahash miner: 1kwatt PSU
transactions: 486 a block(avg of month) https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions-per-block

so lets do this:
486tx x 6 =2919tx per hour
250,000kwatt per hour
250,000/2919=85kwatt/tx

lets say it is 20c per kwh
=$17
which does roughly correspond to: https://blockchain.info/charts/cost-per-transaction?timespan=180day ($18-$20 recently once you add on the physical cost of a rig)

Topic: Transaction cost in kWh - page 4. (Read 5110 times)