Transactions speed prevent us from going to Mainstream ? - page 3.

Mickeyb

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Quote from: OmegaStarScream on August 03, 2015, 01:31:35 PM

Could this be the reason , It's like 15-20mn to get at least 1 confirmation if I'am correct ?
Anyway the point is that we need some time to get transactions verified , could this actually prevent us from going to mainstream ? I mean if you want to buy something from McDonald are you supposed to wait 15mn while that's the time of your launch break ?

When you are buying parking tickets are you also supposed to wait few minuts ? Huh

It wouldn't make any sense .

Honestly , I'am not even sure what controls the speed of the transactions .

No, this is not preventing us from going mainstream. 10 minutes for getting 1 confirmation or 60 minutes for getting 6 confirmations and being absolutely sure that that you will get your money is not a long time to wait at all.

Services that we are using today are much slower (banks, credit card companies, etc..).

Our problem is trust and user adoption and these 2 absolutely depend on each other. Once we get more trust from the average Joe, our user adoption will skyrocket as well.

BillyBobZorton

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Put things into perspective: If you look at it this way you'll see that Visa may right now have more transactions per second, but their growth potential is limited. Now if you consider the potential growth of Bitcoin you'll see how it supersedes Visa and Mastercard combined.

Kazimir

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Quote from: ranochigo on August 04, 2015, 10:03:46 AM

VISA handles more than 2,000 transactions per second.

That's something different entirely. It's like comparing latency with bandwidth. Postal services can transfer 60 million letters per day, does that make it "faster than email"?

VISA has a lot of bandwidth in terms of maximum transaction volume they can process, yes. But the time it takes for one transaction is slower than Bitcoin. It involves multiple connections to bank servers, payment acquirers, card issuers, all with authentication protocols etc. It typically takes 5-10 seconds, whereas Bitcoin takes only 1-2 sec.

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True that transactions would take only a few second to proporgate, the confirmations is also important for some transactions.

Yes, but that's actually very rare. In the vast majority of situations, it's absolutely unnecessary to await even a single confirmation.

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It is hard to maintain even 100TPS continuously as the mempool would only get bigger and the current block size can't possibly handle such amount of transaction.

True, but the debate on how to solve this is still ongoing. There are plenty of possibilities, and one of these solutions will become standard sooner or later.

But again, this topic isn't about transactions per second at all. It's about the time it takes to make a payment.

ShamrockHannah

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I agree with you totally. I was having this discussion with my boyfriend yesterday. I was buying something online using BTC and it took an hour for the first confirmation, it needed three confirmations in total to show up in the wallet of the site I was purchasing from so ended up taking about an hour and a half to complete the order.

This was OK because we were sitting indoors watching TV. If you were in a ship paying in BTC this would not be acceptable though. Yeah a lot of people do shop online nowadays but sometimes you have to go out to get certain items. If the public are going to adopt bitcoin they do not want to waste their precious time waiting for a transaction.

I heard someone taking about increasing block size they then went on to say that the block frequency needs to be increased. I do not know though. Just putting that though out there.

ranochigo

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Quote from: acquafredda on August 04, 2015, 08:47:42 AM

Kazimir,
you say there's no problem...ok... you're right about the 2 second transaction time but what about confirmation waiting?

That is the problem! Do we agree on that?

I always use this example:
if my coffee is 80 euro cents and I want to pay it in BTC for something around 300000 satoshi I do not want to pay a regular fee of 50000 to have that confirmed so expensively.

Maybe the problem is that here in Italy one asks for a coffe in 30 seconds it's ready, one pays and leaves. This happens usually in less than 3 minutes.

Do you understand the point I'm talking about?

Using a third party software could eliminate this issue. One possible problem of that implementation is that you won't be able to control your Bitcoins hence trusting a third party. Just to note, there is no regular fee in Bitcoin, the standard relay fee is 1000 satoshi, the average fee for fast confirmations would be 10000satoshis. The fees can be adjusted proportionally if the price increases.

Even though a few second would be enough to reduce the risk of doublespending attacks, it is good to wait for one confirmation for things larger than $100. It is still possible for doublespend to happen.

Quote from: Kazimir on August 04, 2015, 05:46:36 AM

Quote from: acquafredda on August 04, 2015, 03:37:20 AM

I also think that transaction speed is an issue at the moment. For everyday spending if one goes to a place and spends very little no one would like to spend much in transactions fees: this lets you wait (how long??) until the transaction is confirmed.

Right now the title of this thread is correct: Transactions speed are preventing us our legitimate growth.

The question is: is there a solution or not?

In fact, there is no problem. Bitcoin's transaction speed is about 1-2 seconds. How much faster would that need to be? Bitcoin is already faster than any other payment method on the planet.

VISA handles more than 2,000 transactions per second. True that transactions would take only a few second to proporgate, the confirmations is also important for some transactions. It is hard to maintain even 100TPS continuously as the mempool would only get bigger and the current block size can't possibly handle such amount of transaction.

acquafredda

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Kazimir,
you say there's no problem...ok... you're right about the 2 second transaction time but what about confirmation waiting?

That is the problem! Do we agree on that?

I always use this example:
if my coffee is 80 euro cents and I want to pay it in BTC for something around 300000 satoshi I do not want to pay a regular fee of 50000 to have that confirmed so expensively.

Maybe the problem is that here in Italy one asks for a coffe in 30 seconds it's ready, one pays and leaves. This happens usually in less than 3 minutes.

Do you understand the point I'm talking about?

Amph

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Quote from: Kazimir on August 04, 2015, 08:07:36 AM

Quote from: bornil267645 on August 04, 2015, 06:14:42 AM

I think most of the service providers do not want to give their users the power of anonymity by allowing bitcoin.

Yep. Fortunately, we don't need those service providers (or their consent) to use Bitcoin. There's nothing for them to 'allow'. That's the whole idea of Bitcoin, to become independent of 3rd parties or middle men.

Obviously, the middle men with their current monopoly won't like that. Well, tough luck! The postal services didn't like email either. Technology, bitches! Cheesy

yeah but this time isn't only about money, it's about not having the control anymore, i mean from postal service to email, the only difference was the profit involved, in the sense that the postal services hated the new tech because they lost money

but this time it's also because they will lose control, if bitcoin will come off from any third party, like it should be, there will be a much more fierce war

GODLIKE

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Quote from: OmegaStarScream on August 03, 2015, 01:31:35 PM

Could this be the reason , It's like 15-20mn to get at least 1 confirmation if I'am correct ?
Anyway the point is that we need some time to get transactions verified , could this actually prevent us from going to mainstream ? I mean if you want to buy something from McDonald are you supposed to wait 15mn while that's the time of your launch break ?

When you are buying parking tickets are you also supposed to wait few minuts ? Huh

It wouldn't make any sense .

Honestly , I'am not even sure what controls the speed of the transactions .

Bitcoin doesn't go mainstream for several reasons, but the worst and more difficult to fight of them is mental inertia.
People don't really know how money work and they keep using it just because they trust it.
At the same time they can't really catch HOW Bitcoin works, and Bitcoin is difficult to trust for a huge amount of people, exactly because they can't understand it.
It will be a slow, slow penetration... as Bill Gates stated: "it's a technological tour de force."

Kazimir

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Quote from: bornil267645 on August 04, 2015, 06:14:42 AM

I think most of the service providers do not want to give their users the power of anonymity by allowing bitcoin.

Yep. Fortunately, we don't need those service providers (or their consent) to use Bitcoin. There's nothing for them to 'allow'. That's the whole idea of Bitcoin, to become independent of 3rd parties or middle men.

Obviously, the middle men with their current monopoly won't like that. Well, tough luck! The postal services didn't like email either. Technology, bitches! Cheesy

Kazimir

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Quote from: mallard on August 04, 2015, 06:10:52 AM

Quote from: ransomer on August 03, 2015, 06:22:51 PM

Because we don't want bitcoin to go mainstream until everyone's grandmothers can easily store their bitcoins.... the current solutions are either unsafe or way too nerdy for mass-adoption.

What do you mean?
Multibit is secure and easy to use, and there are lots of other clients that are also easy to use.

Sorry, but no. As a geek and Bitcoin-savvy user, I like MultiBit a lot, but it's most definitely not ready for mass consumers yet.

If you doubt it, try and get your mother or grandmother to give MultiBit a try. Don't explain things or do everything for her, just let her find out herself. Unless of you have a nerdy (grand)mother (which is cool) she most likely won't figure it out.

The only two wallets I currently consider somewhat "mass audience proof" are Mycelium (Android) and Breadwallet (iOS).

bornil267645

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The Bitcoin Transaction system is still faster than anything else available right now. So I don't think that is the problem. I think most of the service providers do not want to give their users the power of anonymity by allowing bitcoin.

mallard

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Quote from: ransomer on August 03, 2015, 06:22:51 PM

Because we don't want bitcoin to go mainstream until everyone's grandmothers can easily store their bitcoins.... the current solutions are either unsafe or way too nerdy for mass-adoption.

What do you mean?
Multibit is secure and easy to use, and there are lots of other clients that are also easy to use.

Mr Moustache

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I don't think its a problem at all. When you send bitcoin its instant and how many times has the payment never confirmed? It's zero for me. Aren't double spends rare at best?

Kazimir

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I'm surprised there is so much misconception about this Sad

Quote from: acquafredda on August 04, 2015, 03:37:20 AM

I also think that transaction speed is an issue at the moment. For everyday spending if one goes to a place and spends very little no one would like to spend much in transactions fees: this lets you wait (how long??) until the transaction is confirmed.

Right now the title of this thread is correct: Transactions speed are preventing us our legitimate growth.

The question is: is there a solution or not?

In fact, there is no problem. Bitcoin's transaction speed is about 1-2 seconds. How much faster would that need to be? Bitcoin is already faster than any other payment method on the planet.

Quote from: thebenjamincode on August 04, 2015, 03:46:03 AM

Yeah you're right there buddy, that's why i am hoping that bitcoin could change this so that we won't wait very long whenever we would send money to someone. But if this would not be resolve, i am hoping that an altcoin like ripple or stellar would go main stream since it offers very fast transaction speed

Nope, ripple or stellar have similar transaction speed to Bitcoin. Except Bitcoin's network is much, MUCH faster, larger, and more efficient and powerful. Altcoins (including ripple and stellar) don't even come close.

Quote from: Thekool1s on August 04, 2015, 03:52:21 AM

Right now the only solution that comes to mind is microwallets by major firms if they want to become scam free. That will cause centralization but it is a solution, But I think its not of a big deal,

Imagine you want to eat out X(famous) restaurant etc tonight, You can transfer funds to the microwallet like few hours earlier and when you go out to dine etc you pay via microwallet no waiting etc. but we will need an wallet which can manage all the microwallets etc to make the process easier.

Realistically, this is not gonna happen. Besides, having a bunch of 'trusted wallets' or 'major firms' introduces a new kind of 3rd parties or middle men, which is completely against Bitcoin's decentralized nature.

We don't need that crap. We just need everybody to realize that for normal expenses, like paying for dinner at a restaurant, you don't need to wait for a confirmation. Paying with Bitcoin takes about 1 second, and you're done. Simple as that.

Let me stress this again: THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

Jace

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Quote from: OmegaStarScream on August 04, 2015, 02:35:07 AM

I'am not supporting Credit cards to be honest and I love bitcoin however CC is reversible indeed but ... there is no double spend like on BTC if it doesn't get verified .

Of course there is. I spend $10 with my credit card in McDonalds. Then I chargeback, thus the payment gets reversed. Or in a way you could say it gets 'unverified' (in fact, a CC payment doesn't even get verified until 6-12 months). Then I spend the same $10 on a pizza. See, I just double spent my $10.

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and imagine if the transaction don't get verified at all for a reason or another , it will end up going back to the buyer which will make the seller losing money .

1. It will make the seller losing money just as much as with credit cards or paypal. In fact, with credit cards or paypal it's even worse, because the seller not only loses his money, but also has to pay chargeback or refund fees (enforced by visa/mastercard/paypal, nothing you can do about it).

2. "Imagine if the transaction doesn't get verified", do you have any idea how extremely, immensely, extraordinarily unlikely this is? It just doesn't happen. Especially not without using ridiculous trickery that is very easy to detect (like zero fee, or duplicate conflicting transactions, or tons of dust outputs, etc).

Seriously, try it. You simply won't be able to send a normal transaction and prevent it from being verified.

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Quote from: thebenjamincode on August 04, 2015, 03:46:03 AM

Yeah you're right there buddy, that's why i am hoping that bitcoin could change this so that we won't wait very long whenever we would send money to someone. But if this would not be resolve, i am hoping that an altcoin like ripple or stellar would go main stream since it offers very fast transaction speed

You should checkout bitshares. Its a new coin and it has a huge potential intant transactions etc, and it also offers bitUSD, BitEur bitGold and even BitBTC. so you could get paid in USD, Eur while giving away a fee of like 0.0007 Cents even for super huge payments, I recently bought btc via bitUsd and guess what I paid a fees of 0.0007 cents and I received the btc instantly, I too think we need a solution for bitcoin or it cant help and probably alt coins will take over with features like these.

BitBTC I think solves this problem too.

Thekool1s

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Quote from: acquafredda on August 04, 2015, 03:37:20 AM

I also think that transaction speed is an issue at the moment. For everyday spending if one goes to a place and spends very little no one would like to spend much in transactions fees: this lets you wait (how long??) until the transaction is confirmed.

Right now the title of this thread is correct: Transactions speed are preventing us our legitimate growth.

The question is: is there a solution or not?

Right now the only solution that comes to mind is microwallets by major firms if they want to become scam free. That will cause centralization but it is a solution, But I think its not of a big deal,

Imagine you want to eat out X(famous) restaurant etc tonight, You can transfer funds to the microwallet like few hours earlier and when you go out to dine etc you pay via microwallet no waiting etc. but we will need an wallet which can manage all the microwallets etc to make the process easier.

thebenjamincode

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Yeah you're right there buddy, that's why i am hoping that bitcoin could change this so that we won't wait very long whenever we would send money to someone. But if this would not be resolve, i am hoping that an altcoin like ripple or stellar would go main stream since it offers very fast transaction speed

acquafredda

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I also think that transaction speed is an issue at the moment. For everyday spending if one goes to a place and spends very little no one would like to spend much in transactions fees: this lets you wait (how long??) until the transaction is confirmed.

Right now the title of this thread is correct: Transactions speed are preventing us our legitimate growth.

The question is: is there a solution or not?

Thekool1s

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Change is in your hands

Quote from: Josef27 on August 04, 2015, 03:25:32 AM

Quote from: Thekool1s on August 04, 2015, 03:06:30 AM

Quote from: Josef27 on August 04, 2015, 02:51:02 AM

Quote from: Thekool1s on August 04, 2015, 02:42:20 AM

First of all who would do a double spend on small items. Double spending is no easy task, and with normal fees too you get fast conformations. The alternative is that they introduce microwallets like faucets do. People can transfer funds to those and pay them via micro transactions which don't need conformations. Its matter of when this is going to happen, Bitcoin has all the things which the world needs

You mean by offchain? Why use cash or credit card instead because it's still a same thing as centralized?
Also now seems hard to trust someone handling the "microwallet" thing for big thing, anything can happen.

No it is not, suppose mc Donald launches there own microwallet, You can fund it, e.g 1 btc in it and when the next time you go, you simply pay by the microwallet instantly, They will be in charge of the microwallets so any losses will be covered by them. How is this linked to centralizing? They can withdraw from it when ever they want, It will be bitcoin no Macbit Tongue

If every bussiness use their own microwallet system then, that would be hard for each customer because they have to work hard to depositing each microwallet, and that just make the payments even more confusing.
Of course microwallet is centralized, because the real owner of the bussiness able to control over all of the coins

But we don't expect mc Donald's to scam Tongue

, Ok In that we can say its centralized, But we can always make apps which can manage our microwallets, Like 1 main app which we fund and in there are microwallets of big business and we can manage effectively how much we want to spend on a specific store etc. I think its doable, Bitcoin has every solution as I said

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