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Topic: Transparent mining, or What makes Nxt a 2nd generation currency - page 3. (Read 35830 times)

legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
Let me think about this.

One roll of a die is a Bernoulli trail, so we should have two binomial distributions B(1000, 0.002) and B(1000, 0.001).

The expected value should be 2 and 1 respectively if I am not completely mistaken.

I think u r right.
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
Alice rolls 1000-face die. Bob rolls 1000-face die.
Alice wins if she gets 1 or 2 (her balance is 100k), Bob wins if he gets 1 (his balance is 50k).

How many times Alice will win if she rolls the die 1000 times?
How many times Bob will win if he rolls the die 1000 times?

Could anyone answer the questions above?

Let me think about this.

One roll of a die is a Bernoulli trail, so we should have two binomial distributions B(1000, 0.002) and B(1000, 0.001).

The expected value should be 2 and 1 respectively if I am not completely mistaken.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
If BCNext likes what you are doing, you will get added to NXT credits API!

BCNext likes every attempt to review his ideas.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1134
It seems one of BCNext plans tackles this stuff?

Yes, but he is upset that community doesn't wish to review and develop his ideas. Anon136 is the only one who does.

I think the majority of people here are interested in reviewing and developing his (BCNext) ideas, we just need a little structured guidance, this thread is so massive.

yup. same here. I am barely hanging on with hanging on.

I guess we should head over to https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/transparent-mining-or-what-makes-nxt-a-2nd-generation-currency-364218 and discuss our TF ideas.
(Re)starting discussion on reviewing and developing TF

If BCNext likes what you are doing, you will get added to NXT credits API!

James
sr. member
Activity: 364
Merit: 250
☕ NXT-4BTE-8Y4K-CDS2-6TB82
If they miss their chance to mine a block they'll be penalized. Stakeholders r supposed to protect Nxt, not just sit and wait for 1 NXT = 1,000,000 USD day.

NB: The only penalty is inability to mine blocks within some period of time. They still can decide not to bother with mining, but their "hashing" power will be distributed to those who do protect the network.

When will this penalty be implemented?

No ETA yet.

Any news on that one?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
ok, in order to meet 1Mtps, wont blocks be forged much more frequently than 1 per minute?  Is this necessarily a "bad" situation, or just out of the "normal" figure of 1 block per minute?

And what exactly does it mean to "send transactions directly to the next-scheduled forger"?  How is this accomplished? Are these forgers going to have to act as some kind of service provider where their public IPs are known?

Gap between blocks will be exactly 1 minute.

Yes, these forgers have to announce IP address for transactions.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
ok, in order to meet 1Mtps, wont blocks be forged much more frequently than 1 per minute?  Is this necessarily a "bad" situation, or just out of the "normal" figure of 1 block per minute?

And what exactly does it mean to "send transactions directly to the next-scheduled forger"?  How is this accomplished? Are these forgers going to have to act as some kind of service provider where their public IPs are known?
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
Then I went on to demonstrate that even in much larger simulations the bias, though its effects are reduced, is still present.  That you took as an admission that I was wrong.

No, I said that u r wrong when used a model with 2 accounts only. U r right, there is a bias. And I stated this a lot of times.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
Come-from-Beyond, I don't know how to interact with you. 

When demonstrating a bias, the first thing to do is always to identify the case where returns deviate very sharply from expectations.  That was the case you pooh-poohed. 

Then I went on to demonstrate that even in much larger simulations the bias, though its effects are reduced, is still present.  That you took as an admission that I was wrong.

You flatly refused to explain yourself, then later refused again with the claim that you had explained yourself and don't care to do it again.

You're also responding to technical truths as personal attacks, and trying to deal with facts as though they were merely social conventions, with bluff and aggressiveness and fabrications rather than other facts.

It seems to me as if your brain is somehow broken, and I don't know where the edges of rationality that I can converse with might be.  Interacting with you makes me angry and I tend to snap at you; I'm sorry for that, but I can't otherwise seem to communicate with you at all.   
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
So if practice proves your position, and I flip heads 10 times in a row, that means I will never flip tails? Practice proves that the coin always lands on heads. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
If there's a model that predicts HUGE difference, there'd be some numbers for that in statisticks, don't u think? For now it seems, difference not exist at all (we've not too much data and topology non-optimized), but if we'll follow the logic (there're 100s of 2^N-dices and only 1 winner), difference'd be incredible small at longer distance. I'm comfortable with that.
legendary
Activity: 1498
Merit: 1000
I think your nonsense indicator is badly broken.

Thank u for ur competent opinion.
It is the n-th time you say this - I will put you on my ignore list for 6.8 days!
 Tongue Cheesy
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
I think your nonsense indicator is badly broken.

Thank u for ur competent opinion.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
I think your nonsense indicator is badly broken.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
I refused to explain coz practice proves my position and it's YOU who is supposed to prove that ur model is correct.

So if practice proves your position, and I flip heads 10 times in a row, that means I will never flip tails? Practice proves that the coin always lands on heads. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

It's the 2nd time u post nonsense in an Nxt thread.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
I refused to explain coz practice proves my position and it's YOU who is supposed to prove that ur model is correct.

So if practice proves your position, and I flip heads 10 times in a row, that means I will never flip tails? Practice proves that the coin always lands on heads. Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
And you have not yet said what that error is.  In fact you flatly refused to on several occasions.  The supposed error does not in fact exist. 

You were right when you said that the artificial situation of just two accounts exaggerated the effect; That doesn't mean there was an error -- the bias unquestionably exists. 

Nope, sorry.  Remember, You flatly refused to explain. You don't get to flatly refuse to explain, and then claim that you did. 

The model is correct; The only question is, does it matter?   And the answer given the broader simulation above is, probably not. With many accounts no one having more than a small fraction of the total money, the bias is very small.  But it definitely does exist.

The error I'm talking about is an attempt to model forging with 2 accounts only.

Bias does exist, I was always saying this when discussed with other guys who asked the same questions. But it's very small to pay attention, close to dispersion (subject to account balances). I refused to explain coz practice proves my position and it's YOU who is supposed to prove that ur model is correct.
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
And you're looking at a thread in which two different people have posted code.

Both the people made the same error.

And you have not yet said what that error is.  In fact you flatly refused to on several occasions.  The supposed error does not in fact exist. 

You were right when you said that the artificial situation of just two accounts exaggerated the effect; That doesn't mean there was an error -- the bias unquestionably exists. 


So I only have one question; why are you pretending to have a problem understanding this?

Already answered why ur model is incorrect. Sorry, I'm not going to waste my time on every guy who does a logical error.

Nope, sorry.  Remember, You flatly refused to explain. You don't get to flatly refuse to explain, and then claim that you did. 

The model is correct; The only question is, does it matter?   And the answer given the broader simulation above is, probably not. With many accounts no one having more than a small fraction of the total money, the bias is very small.  But it definitely does exist.
full member
Activity: 238
Merit: 100
legendary
Activity: 924
Merit: 1132
For what it's worth, come-from-beyond has a point when he says that the situation is exaggerated by an artificial situation with just two accounts.  

I decided to try a broader simulation, and see what the effects are.  

So, I set this up with 26 accounts, each having a different balance from 1000 to 26000, and bumped it up to a million trials to get consistent results despite statistical noise having a greater impact on a more complex situation.

Here's the code:
Code:
#include 
#include

// takes a balance; returns an interval to block forging time.
double rollem(double balance){
  double roll = 0.0;
  while (roll == 0.0) roll = ((double) rand())/RAND_MAX;
  return 1000 * roll / balance;
}


main(){
  double balances[26], times[26];
  double min, totalmoney = 0.0;
  int wins[26];
  int winner, count, trial, TRIALS = 1000000;

  for (count = 0; count < 26; count++){
    balances[count] = (count+1) * 1000;
    totalmoney += balances[count];
    wins[count] = 0;
  }

  for (trial = 0; trial < TRIALS; trial++){
    for (count = 0; count < 26; count++){
      times[count] = rollem(balances[count]);
    }
    min = times[0];
    winner = 0;
    for (count = 1; count < 26; count++)
      if (min > times[count]){
min = times[count];
winner = count;
      }
    wins[winner]++;
  }
  for (count = 0; count < 26; count++){
    printf("%c got %f%% of the wins with %f%% of the money.\n", count+'A',
  100*(double)wins[count]/TRIALS,
  100*(double)balances[count]/totalmoney);
  }
}


The effect is still present, in that the accounts with larger than median balances get more than their share of blocks, but it's considerably less important given the number of accounts and range of account values under consideration.  I deliberately let the smaller account win the block in every tie, just to ensure that the bias demonstrated was not due to a systematic error going the other direction. 

In this broader simulation, people do not get three times the number of blocks relative to someone with half their balance; Instead they get only a tiny fraction more than double.  (note, these pairs are AB, BD, CF, DH, EJ, and so on).

Here are the results:  


A got 0.269800% of the wins with 0.284900% of the money.
B got 0.545100% of the wins with 0.569801% of the money.
C got 0.832000% of the wins with 0.854701% of the money.
D got 1.076900% of the wins with 1.139601% of the money.
E got 1.364900% of the wins with 1.424501% of the money.
F got 1.627700% of the wins with 1.709402% of the money.
G got 1.925300% of the wins with 1.994302% of the money.
H got 2.226500% of the wins with 2.279202% of the money.
I got 2.473800% of the wins with 2.564103% of the money.
J got 2.812900% of the wins with 2.849003% of the money.
K got 3.108000% of the wins with 3.133903% of the money.
L got 3.333500% of the wins with 3.418803% of the money.
M got 3.667000% of the wins with 3.703704% of the money.
N got 3.954400% of the wins with 3.988604% of the money.
O got 4.229700% of the wins with 4.273504% of the money.
P got 4.554900% of the wins with 4.558405% of the money.
Q got 4.813100% of the wins with 4.843305% of the money.
R got 5.146400% of the wins with 5.128205% of the money.
S got 5.400300% of the wins with 5.413105% of the money.
T got 5.720200% of the wins with 5.698006% of the money.
U got 6.039900% of the wins with 5.982906% of the money.
V got 6.336200% of the wins with 6.267806% of the money.
W got 6.610200% of the wins with 6.552707% of the money.
X got 7.018400% of the wins with 6.837607% of the money.
Y got 7.296000% of the wins with 7.122507% of the money.
Z got 7.616900% of the wins with 7.407407% of the money.
legendary
Activity: 2142
Merit: 1009
Newbie
@ All:

If u r going to bother me with the same issue again and again, please, make sure that blockchain data proves ur math. Till now the data proves that I'm right.
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