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Topic: Trust System Upgrade - page 3. (Read 1137 times)

legendary
Activity: 2464
Merit: 3158
May 31, 2019, 06:01:25 AM
#9
Get rid of trust lists completely, implement a standard of evidence of theft, violation of contractual agreement, or violation of applicable laws for negative rating, and make trust ratings little more than a comment on the profile once again. Simplify the system and increase accountability for its use and abuse.

That will happen the day Theymos successfully hires precogs to help with the forum moderation and undermine the bad event from happening before it starts.

What you recall here requires a massive work-load !
If alone the standard of evidence of theft was enforced, who shall we give that hammer ?
Theymos ? I think he's overwhelmed with stuffs.
Global mods ?
This would only move the heat from a bunch of seats to a single one.

Who is going to research the applicable laws ? Should the forum hire lawyers ?

The current system has it's flaws, it is not perfect, but what could be the alternatives ?
(Alternatives shouldn't put more workload on the current staff)

As we've see with Cryptios, maybe another company will see the light of day to moderate trust ? I highly doubt so but why not.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18706
May 31, 2019, 05:27:35 AM
#8
What better for new users to use as a guide for who to trade with than an almost completely opaque trust system that nearly no one understands. Brilliant.
I disagree. Whether or not a user is generally seen as "trusted" is very easy to understand for a new user. The big green or red numbers under their name, with the added "Trade with Extreme Caution" tag, couldn't really be made much clearer or much easier to understand. I don't think I've ever seen a post from someone being confused about that. Whether or not you agree with those numbers is another matter, but they are not difficult to understand.

Once a new user has been around for a while and can start to make up their own mind about who they do and do not trust, and whose ratings they do and do not value, they will want to think about setting up their own trust list. That is when the issue occurs, and it is that which should be made easier and more accessible to the average user, not more complex as in Quickseller's proposal.
legendary
Activity: 3318
Merit: 2008
First Exclusion Ever
May 31, 2019, 05:15:56 AM
#7
We already have a problem with most people not understanding the trust system. The majority of users do not have custom trust lists, and even of those who do, many do not really understand the difference between trust ratings and a custom trust list, or how the various depths work.


I was just about to add this into my 1st statement. This is a huge problem in the trust system we currently have.

What better for new users to use as a guide for who to trade with than an almost completely opaque trust system that nearly no one understands. Brilliant.

IMO Theymos just needs to nut up and take his little tumor of a social experiment he has been running on all of us out behind the barn and shoot it. Get rid of trust lists completely, implement a standard of evidence of theft, violation of contractual agreement, or violation of applicable laws for negative rating, and make trust ratings little more than a comment on the profile once again. Simplify the system and increase accountability for its use and abuse. Or we can just let the forum continue to eat its own face as I warned would happen years ago when these failed "features" were implemented.
legendary
Activity: 3682
Merit: 4469
May 31, 2019, 04:56:06 AM
#6
We already have a problem with most people not understanding the trust system. The majority of users do not have custom trust lists, and even of those who do, many do not really understand the difference between trust ratings and a custom trust list, or how the various depths work.


I was just about to add this into my 1st statement. This is a huge problem in the trust system we currently have.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 18706
May 31, 2019, 04:53:43 AM
#5
We already have a problem with most people not understanding the trust system. The majority of users do not have custom trust lists, and even of those who do, many do not really understand the difference between trust ratings and a custom trust list, or how the various depths work. If anything, we should be looking to make the trust system simpler, not more complex, as your proposal does. Adding in extra options of including people for "ratings only", or for their list and ratings, will only be understood by a few and used by even fewer, while making the barrier to setting your own custom trust list for the first time even higher. Similarly, your various scenarios for working out whether or not to display the "Trade with Extreme Caution" warning are unnecessarily complex.

If someone leaves a negative rating you do not believe makes the person a scammer, you are free to ignore it.
This is already the case. If you don't agree with a rating, ignore it or exclude the person who left it.
legendary
Activity: 2800
Merit: 2472
https://JetCash.com
May 31, 2019, 04:50:58 AM
#4
I think it should be renamed, and we should have some method of ranking members for reliability and honesty in trading.
legendary
Activity: 3682
Merit: 4469
May 31, 2019, 04:35:10 AM
#3
I believe it has been established the current implementation of the trust system is not working. This in large part can be attributed to the Default Trust changes implemented this past January, but the underlying root cause of the problem is a very small number of people leaving a very large number of controversial ratings.

I believe a lot of these people have proven themselves to be untrustworthy, and should be labeled as such. The most appropriate solution, IMO is to blacklist most of these people from being able to ever be in anyone's trust network, unless they are explicitly added to a user's trust list, but I do not believe this will happen.

I think you should hold yourself accountable and list the names of this small group, and also list what your trust score would be if they were blacklisted. Seems like that is the motivation behind this post. Maybe it's not but sure would seem the case.


I do not like how the trust system is/can be manipulated as it is but I also do not agree that removing ratings all together or making ratings only be seen but a person not get neg trust on their profile due to you not trusting their trust list. I like the idea of a public discussion about a users getting a rating before they are tagged, but who's opinion would matter in this discussion? Would only DT opinions matter or should we only use users such as Thule, MightyDTs, TheOneAboveAll, Quickseller, cryptohunter and others count?

I'm also not a fan of the new DT selection process. The old system IMO was better then the current system but needed tweeked. Inactive DTs needed removed and replaced. With the current system anyone can get in DT as long as they can meet/manipulate the criteria, and many can also be fucked and never be able to get on DT with the current way to manipulate, so I feel like you have some points but not good solutions.

Doesn't matter what changes are made, if the community opinion is you are a scammer it should be seen in BIG BOLD RED. If users do their due diligence and check a persons profile, they can decide whether or not to deal with that user. They also should be using an actual ESCROW from the list of escrows if they are doing a trade. If all users did this, then the scam accusations section would be a lot cleaner.

No matter what changes that would/could be made there will always be a group one way or the other pissed off. No way to make everyone happy period. I keep saying we need a Trust System for users to use when doing trades, and a Reputation system for other tags not dealing with trades. I obviously said no to the 1st 4 options up top, but yes to number 5. I do not believe a person who was tagged for spamming and many other reasons not dealing with trading should have the warning label attached to them.

Sorry for all the editing, thoughts keep popping up and I feel need said.
legendary
Activity: 3010
Merit: 8114
May 31, 2019, 04:21:11 AM
#2
You posted the same 2 options twice:



May want to delete the duplicate options.

Its been less than 6 months since the last changes were made, I think theymos should wait another 6 months before fiddling with the system. People are still adapting to the last upheaval. To introduce more changes now would just add to the confusion.
copper member
Activity: 2926
Merit: 2348
May 31, 2019, 04:02:37 AM
#1
I believe it has been established the current implementation of the trust system is not working. This in large part can be attributed to the Default Trust changes implemented this past January, but the underlying root cause of the problem is a very small number of people leaving a very large number of controversial ratings.

I believe a lot of these people have proven themselves to be untrustworthy, and should be labeled as such. The most appropriate solution, IMO is to blacklist most of these people from being able to ever be in anyone's trust network, unless they are explicitly added to a user's trust list, but I do not believe this will happen.

If memory serves me correctly, the trust score algorithm was changed not long after AMHash stopped honoring their obligations. The algorithm was changed so that negative ratings had much greater weight, and positive ratings had much less weight. The instance of a single negative rating would further lower the weight of positive ratings. I believe this goes too far, and is not appropriate if the administration is unwilling to mediate trust disputes, as appears to be the case for many years now.

To resolve the problems with the trust system, I would propose the following:

Remove the ability to exclude a person from your trust network:
This feature sounds good on its face, but is actually harmful to the trust system and the community.

As an example, SaltySpitoon has BayAreaCoins on his trust list. if BAC leaves controversial ratings, he is unwilling to remove after a public discussion, if the rating is controversial, SaltySpitoon should remove BAC from his trust list. If BAC is unwilling to do this, a decision should be made to either accept the controversial rating, or to remove SaltySpitoon from your trust list. This will force people to be accountable for who they have on their trust lists.

Ability to include someone in your trust list as "Ratings Only":
If someone has left many good ratings, but is not good at maintaining a trust list, it should be possible to only trust the person's ratings, but ignore their trust list. In the above example, if SaltySpitoon refused to remove BAC from his trust list, but has left many good ratings over the years, someone may decide to include him in their trust list as "Ratings only" so that his trust network would see his trust ratings but would completely ignore his trust list. This will mitigate some of the problems and controversy caused by the above.

Removal of Trust Scores:
This is the most drastic, and probably the most controversial change. Forum members will be free to leave comments with their various types of ratings, but this will remove the harm associated with the controversial ratings. If someone leaves a negative rating you do not believe makes the person a scammer, you are free to ignore it. Ratings will be able to be filtered by if they are left by those in your trust network, and further by if the rating is positive, negative or neutral. This will force users to draw their own conclusions as to how trustworthy someone is. Further, this will also mitigate the "this person has good judgment" and "this person helps out" type positive ratings that some people have who lack any real trading history, but show Dark Green trust currently inappropriately.

Modification of when the "Trade with Extreme Caution" warning will be displayed:
Even if trust scores are not displayed, it is still appropriate to give a warning displayed in marketplace posts and in PMs by/from people who are reasonably scammers. The Algorithm to determined if this warning is displayed should be changed. Additional warnings should also be introduced.

No ratings:
If a person does not have any ratings, positive or negative (ignoring neutral), a warning should be displayed saying the person does not have any reported trust ratings within your trust network. 

Ratings, but no "Trade with Extreme Caution" Warning:
If a person will not have a "Trade with Extreme Caution" warning, a message should be displayed encouraging people to review trust ratings, and attempt to evaluate the person's trustworthiness prior to trusting the person.

"Trade with Extreme Caution" warning:
This determination if this warning is displayed should depend on if they have any previous positive ratings, and if they receive any positive ratings after their first negative rating.

If the person does not have any previous negative ratings, nor do they receive any positive ratings subsequent to receiving their first negative rating, they will display the "Trade with Extreme Caution" warning. This is simple and should not be controversial, if a single person believes a person to be a scammer, and no one contests this, the person should display this warning.

If the person has between 1 and 3 positive positive ratings, and no positive ratings after they receive their first negative rating, they need at least 2 negative ratings from unique people to display this warning.

If the person has more than 4 positive ratings, and no positive ratings after they receive their first negative rating, they need at least 3 negative ratings from unique people to display this warning.

If someone leaves a negative rating, subsequently removes the rating, and adds a negative rating back on within a month, the date the original rating was left shall be used to calculate when a person received their first negative rating.

If someone receives at least one positive rating after the first negative rating, their status as a scammer is disputed.

If a person's status as a scammer is disputed, the number of negative ratings (in addition to the numbers listed above) need to be left for a member in order for the warning to be displayed:
y = [(n^2)/3], round up
n = number of unique ratings received after the first negative rating received, unless the member has received at least 4 positive ratings subsequent to their first negative rating, and if this is the case, it will be: the number of positive ratings received subsequent to their first negative rating, plus 20% of positive ratings received after their first negative rating

The above formula will make it difficult to label someone as a scammer if many people disagree with this conclusion. The specifics can be tinkered with around the edges if necessary/deemed appropriate.


The selection process for how DT is determined should also be reformed, but that is another topic of discussion.


What do you think? Should the above be implemented? Vote above, select "yes" or "no" for each proposal.
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